Xiao Long Nu vs Linghu Chung

[Snafu3721]

OK, I have just reread the part where XLN demonstrated her superhuman speed. NOWHERE do I see an explanation of how she got this speed! It says that L/R doubled her speed, but it makes no sense b/c she showed that she was just as fast using ONE sword as two swords as 4 swords. The only difference using multiple swords was they were more dangerous, but as far as the speed, it was the same. So how can L/R increase the speed of using ONE sword with ONE arm?

XLN as fast with the sword, but against regular QZ daoists. So this is not a good measure of her speed relativeto mongol mercs. And it seems shedrew two swords i/o one.

Third paragraph of chapter 26

"Before their hands reached her sleeve, the fight, from their perspective, was moving as fast as lightning, and then their wrists felt a burst of severe pain. In haste they leapt back. What had happened was that from her waist Xiao Longnu pulled out two swords. In the blink of an eye, their wrists were struck by the swords; the carpal bones were almost broken and the wrists were drenched with blood."

Paragraph 4+5

"The thrust of the two swords was even quicker than before; even experts such as Xiaoxiang Zi and Yin Kexi gazed at each other with pale faces. They’d previously seen her fight Gongsun Zhi at Passionless Valley. At that time her sword stances were fine and ingenious, but they were definitely not as unbelievable as they were now.

Xiao Longnu was taught how to separate her mind for two uses by Zhou Botong, the Left/Right Mutual Combat Technique; between her innate abilities and his teaching, her martial arts had multiplied. With Yang Guo forming the Dueling Sword Combination and using the ‘Pure Heart of the Jade Maiden Sword Technique’, few have matched it under the heavens. Now, as one person, she can use two swords simultaneously, with outstanding power. Regardless of how two people’s intentions are interlinked with each other, it’s still inferior to one person’s lightning-like alertness during battle. At this moment, although her sword method’s energy and strength weren’t as good as two people teaming up, her moves are faster in comparison by many times. "

It specifically states that L/R is what sped her up many times.

Xiao Longnu studied her Left/Right Mutual Combat Technique alone and practiced it a couple of times in the wilderness, but she’d never exchanged blows with anyone. Today she had the opportunity to try out these new techniques, and even she could not have dreamed of possessing such might; she was unexpectedly startled.

XLN was unaware of her own abilities. Much like GJ in LOCH when he used L/R the first time against OYK. Hence, this is why I tend to believe that GJ still has room to maximize on L/R just like XLN if he were somehow to figure out he can just shoot mini blasts of finger snaps.

_______________________


And upon further reading myself. I realize that the fight between her and the mongol mercs was quite a convenient fluke for XLN. It just so happens she has lots of swords to fling in the air, w/o multiple swords, she wouldn't be "unblockable fast" to the mongol mercs. XLN using 2 swords was still at a slight disadvantage to the 3 mercs (although it would require all 3 to beat her).

I also still can't understand why XLN seems so fast GWM when GSZ obviously can keep up. So either GWM brainfart was truly bad (since JY mentioned many times he was loosing more psychologically against XLN than by pure combat prowess), or XLN got a good ol' fashion JY protagonist plot device boost.

[minutemanwayne]

XLN was being lenient towards GSZ because he had once saved her life before

[Snafu3721]

XLN was being lenient towards GSZ because he had once saved her life before

XLN also had no animosity towards the mongol mercs. Nor did she really want to hurt them

She doesn't quite have the usual influence of emotions on her fighting capability like many other wuxia characters.

[PJ]

XLN as fast with the sword, but against regular QZ daoists. So this is not a good measure of her speed relativeto mongol mercs. And it seems shedrew two swords i/o one.

Third paragraph of chapter 26


Paragraph 4+5


It specifically states that L/R is what sped her up many times.

Doesn't explain the part when she hit Zhao Zhijing who was hiding behind Yin Kexi. She hit Zhao with just ONE sword, and Yin could not see her move. That's why I said her one sword is just as fast as multiple swords. How does L/R explain that?

[Snafu3721]

Doesn't explain the part when she hit Zhao Zhijing who was hiding behind Yin Kexi. She hit Zhao with just ONE sword, and Yin could not see her move. That's why I said her one sword is just as fast as multiple swords. How does L/R explain that?

L/R can't explain that one stroke.

It's just one of those inconsistencies (like the many others) that exists in JY universe. By that one stroke alone, we can actually assume that XLN is so fast that none of the mongol mercs should seen any of her moves

So how do people block moves they can't see? Especially ones that are actually faster now that XLN is using 2 swords and L/R? What I'm saying is if one sword XLN is so incredibly fast and having L/R doubles her speed. How then do the mongol mercs even stand a chance to block any of her moves (which they did)?

Which also begs this question-- how did XLN get so fast from her 1st time at Passionless valley to QZ temple?

And now I'm curious as to the mechanics of how L/R actually doubled XLN's speed =P

They’d (mongol mercs) previously seen her fight Gongsun Zhi at Passionless Valley. At that time her sword stances were fine and ingenious, but they were definitely not as unbelievable as they were now.

I think it was JY's intention that it was due to L/R XLN gained a speed boost, but like many previous discussions we've had about L/R... I think JY himself doesn't really know how to properly explain his own creation.

[CancerLuna]

XLN beasting GWM could possibly be due to him being afraid of Jade Maiden+her speed.

GSZ lasting quite a while is confusing but not too surprising, considering XLN didn't break through the 3 mongol defenses either and her being lenient(maybe).

The bystanders being able to see XLN might be similar to how one can see a car go from point a to point b, but if they were right next the car, it would be out of their sight immediately when it passes them.

Or even regular real life boxing, fighting someone, its possible to get punched out of nowhere and not even know where the punch came from whereas, watching the fight, gives a different perspective.

Of course, there might be slight inconsistencies and JY just messed up.

[Snafu3721]

XLN beasting GWM could possibly be due to him being afraid of Jade Maiden+her speed.

GSZ lasting quite a while is confusing but not too surprising, considering XLN didn't break through the 3 mongol defenses either and her being lenient(maybe).

The bystanders being able to see XLN might be similar to how one can see a car go from point a to point b, but if they were right next the car, it would be out of their sight immediately when it passes them.

Or even regular real life boxing, fighting someone, its possible to get punched out of nowhere and not even know where the punch came from whereas, watching the fight, gives a different perspective.

Of course, there might be slight inconsistencies and JY just messed up.

I like the boxing and car example.
But my view on wuxia stance excution speed is more like a slight of hand in magic. It's such a fast and compact movement that audiences close and far can't see what happened.

The car example I think is more applicable to things like qing gong where a wuxia person flies in quickly, grabs something, and flies out just as fast. To a person near the incident, all he/she sees is a blur. But to faraway bystander, he/she would see the flying wuxia person.

[aliderhamy]

LHC is superior to them in sword fighting, but as late as the Shaolin fights, he couldn't understand the palm exchanges between Fang Zheng and Ren Woxing, nevermind break them. If the Greats just used their signature arts like Dragon Palms or Mighty Snap, LHC would be overwhelmed easily. His inner strength, though good in theory, lacks time and experience. He had a year at most to cultivate, while the other guys have been doing it for decades.

With regards to his energy absorbing, it's probably going to be useless against them. He couldn't absorb ZLC or FZ's inner strength, so I doubt he could absorb the ROCH peoples' either, as their cultivation and control is probably greater.

That is why we are debating XLN and LHC, because LHC versus GJ would be a stompfest.

LHC allways down played his own abbilities in naritive... he would often surprise himself with his strenght or sword play.

also as he sorbs more power he gains strength ? like daun yu ? or was RWX sorb of a lower level then Duan Yu sorb ?

hmmm also his injurries and lack of experiance of high level martial arts only shows his metoric rise to the top... its only takes him 1-2 years to go from zero to hero.... GJ, yang go and even zhang wuji all take a decade or 2 of training to achieve thier ultimate high level status.

imagin this if you can... he master tendin ultering sutra... (is toauted as the ultimate internal energy skill in the noval - so must be considerd on pahh with other internal energy skills in other jin yong novals)

then with his happy go lucky and naturaly adventuras spirit begins exploring the martial world, and soon enough visits sholin and wudang who both have a good relationship with him. He has a sharp mind and learns thier martial arts... boom he is a compleat fighter ?

POINT IS THERE IS NOTHING LIMITING LHC DEVELOPMENT IN MARTIAL ARTS

[aliderhamy]

I don't believe HYS ever used superhuman speed against a peer, did he? It's common to use it against a lower class opponent and many people have done that, but usually not against a peer.

Somehow, I have some trouble picturing GJ running around like XLN and DFBB.

XF and XYS do something similar but different: they run around really fast and unpredictably and rip people apart. So it looks ultra-masculine, and it's more effective than straightforward fighting. But I don't think that fits GJ's personality either.

I like this analysis... i can live with your idea on this PJ

[aliderhamy]

OK, I have just reread the part where XLN demonstrated her superhuman speed. NOWHERE do I see an explanation of how she got this speed! It says that L/R doubled her speed, but it makes no sense b/c she showed that she was just as fast using ONE sword as two swords as 4 swords. The only difference using multiple swords was they were more dangerous, but as far as the speed, it was the same. So how can L/R increase the speed of using ONE sword with ONE arm?

This is also what I recall... the jade maiden martial arts was speed focused and developted... and so both YG and XLN had extreem speed... but IMO JY never intended for XLN to be an ultimate fighter like YG, GJ, ZW, or LHC...

In the end of smilling proud wanderer LHC is considerd to be the ultimate fighter of his time ?

[PJ]

What I'm saying is if one sword XLN is so incredibly fast and having L/R doubles her speed. How then do the mongol mercs even stand a chance to block any of her moves (which they did)?

From what actually happens, XLN using 2 swords has the same speed as using 1 sword; that is: when she's using 2 swords, each arm has the same speed as using one sword. But since she's using 2 arms instead of 1 arm, that's where the "doubling" comes from.

[Snafu3721]

From what actually happens, XLN using 2 swords has the same speed as using 1 sword; that is: when she's using 2 swords, each arm has the same speed as using one sword. But since she's using 2 arms instead of 1 arm, that's where the "doubling" comes from.

So we go back to this question--

Did XLN increase her speed THAT much between 1st time at Passionless valley and QZ temple? Doesn't seem right because not too much time had lapsed and XLN didn't really train any harder other than learning L/R

And it's the way JY wrote chapter 26 that leads me to believe it was his intention that XLN's sword skills became better and faster due to L/R. I don't think JY thought carefully enough when it came to the topic of speed.

這四劍刺得更快，
連瀟湘子、尹克西這等高手也不由得相顧失色。他們在絕情谷中曾見她與公孫止動手，那時
劍法雖亦精妙，但決不如眼前的出神入化。
原來小龍女得周伯通授以分心二用、左右互搏之術，鬥然間武功倍增。她與楊過雙劍合
璧使那“玉女素心劍法”，天下已少有抗手，此刻她一人同使兩劍，威力尤強。二人不論如
何心意相通，總不及一個人內心的意念如電，她此刻所使劍術勁力雖不及二人聯手，出手卻
比之兩人同時要快上數倍。
......
.....

......
小龍女自學得左右互搏之術以後，除了在曠野中練過幾次之外，從未與人動手過招，今
日發硎新試，自己也想不到竟有如斯威力，殺退群道之後，竟爾悚然自驚

I think it's even more implied when read in Chinese that L/R was what changed her from below mercs to being better.

And if we're to accept that she only "doubled" her speed because she was using 2 arms i/o 1... then what's the difference between someone using 2 swords with both hands vs L/R?

And couldn't XLN or any other coordinated martial artist have replicated XLN's feat in QZ temple without L/R?

[Doc Kwok]

From what actually happens, XLN using 2 swords has the same speed as using 1 sword; that is: when she's using 2 swords, each arm has the same speed as using one sword. But since she's using 2 arms instead of 1 arm, that's where the "doubling" comes from.

If that were the case, then the YG+XLN combo should be almost as 'fast' as XLN alone with L/R, with a small lag time as one reacts to the other. Unless, of course, the lag time was so great that they both had to slow themselves down to a crawl to compensate. But when fighting alone, they wouldn't be so encumbered, yet neither displayed the degree of raw speed that XLN demonstrated after she learnt L/R. Nor does it explain why no-one was able to follow her moves, how she was able to perform 40 odd strokes in an instant or how her sword strokes seem to come from nowhere.

Clearly something else is going on. I personally think JY was just playing loose and fast with the concept of 'speed' in this scene. L/R obviously increases the 'speed' with which the two 'people' wielding the swords react to each other to near instantaneous (same brain), but then twists 'reaction speed' to mean 'movement speed'.

[Snafu3721]

If that were the case, then the YG+XLN combo should be almost as 'fast' as XLN alone with L/R, with a small lag time as one reacts to the other. Unless, of course, the lag time was so great that they both had to slow themselves down to a crawl to compensate. But when fighting alone, they wouldn't be so encumbered, yet neither displayed the degree of raw speed that XLN demonstrated after she learnt L/R. Nor does it explain why no-one was able to follow her moves, how she was able to perform 40 odd strokes in an instant or how her sword strokes seem to come from nowhere.

Clearly something else is going on. I personally think JY was just playing loose and fast with the concept of 'speed' in this scene. L/R obviously increases the 'speed' with which the two 'people' wielding the swords react to each other to near instantaneous (same brain), but then twists 'reaction speed' to mean 'movement speed'.

Thank you Doc for summing that up! I just couldn't put the right words together to explain this concept

[PJ]

If that were the case, then the YG+XLN combo should be almost as 'fast' as XLN alone with L/R

This assumes that post-L/R XLN had the same speed as before. But I think she obviously gained a lot of speed, judging by her swift striking of Zhao Zhijing with the Mongolian mercs standing between them and not able to see her strike. So somehow, learning L/R technique increased XLN's speed in every way: no matter what kind of move she does, even if she doesn't use L/R technique at all, her move is still a lot faster than before.

So there are a couple of things to debate:

1. Is it true that post-L/R XLN is a lot faster than before, even when she's not using L/R technique? (I believe it's yes)

2. If so, then how did she gain this speed? Is it from L/R technique? (I believe yes, b/c I can't think of any other reason)

3. If so, then how could L/R technique make her a lot faster than before regardless of whether she uses the actual technique?

If we agree on #1 and #2, then what I'm confused about is #3.

[Snafu3721]

This assumes that post-L/R XLN had the same speed as before. But I think she obviously gained a lot of speed, judging by her swift striking of Zhao Zhijing with the Mongolian mercs standing between them and not able to see her strike. So somehow, learning L/R technique increased XLN's speed in every way: no matter what kind of move she does, even if she doesn't use L/R technique at all, her move is still a lot faster than before.

So there are a couple of things to debate:

1. Is it true that post-L/R XLN is a lot faster than before, even when she's not using L/R technique? (I believe it's yes)

2. If so, then how did she gain this speed? Is it from L/R technique? (I believe yes, b/c I can't think of any other reason)

3. If so, then how could L/R technique make her a lot faster than before regardless of whether she uses the actual technique?

If we agree on #1 and #2, then what I'm confused about is #3.

Exactly why I think it's a JY mistake/inconsistency and was only convenient for the QZ temple scene. Because XLN just wasn't so fast her 2nd time at Passionless valley.

And I wonder the same thing as #3 in a previous post.

[CancerLuna]

LHC allways down played his own abbilities in naritive... he would often surprise himself with his strenght or sword play.

also as he sorbs more power he gains strength ? like daun yu ? or was RWX sorb of a lower level then Duan Yu sorb ?

hmmm also his injurries and lack of experiance of high level martial arts only shows his metoric rise to the top... its only takes him 1-2 years to go from zero to hero.... GJ, yang go and even zhang wuji all take a decade or 2 of training to achieve thier ultimate high level status.

imagin this if you can... he master tendin ultering sutra... (is toauted as the ultimate internal energy skill in the noval - so must be considerd on pahh with other internal energy skills in other jin yong novals)

then with his happy go lucky and naturaly adventuras spirit begins exploring the martial world, and soon enough visits sholin and wudang who both have a good relationship with him. He has a sharp mind and learns thier martial arts... boom he is a compleat fighter ?

POINT IS THERE IS NOTHING LIMITING LHC DEVELOPMENT IN MARTIAL ARTS

Using that logic, Yang Guo became zero to hero in a few months.

This assumes that post-L/R XLN had the same speed as before. But I think she obviously gained a lot of speed, judging by her swift striking of Zhao Zhijing with the Mongolian mercs standing between them and not able to see her strike. So somehow, learning L/R technique increased XLN's speed in every way: no matter what kind of move she does, even if she doesn't use L/R technique at all, her move is still a lot faster than before.

So there are a couple of things to debate:

1. Is it true that post-L/R XLN is a lot faster than before, even when she's not using L/R technique? (I believe it's yes)

2. If so, then how did she gain this speed? Is it from L/R technique? (I believe yes, b/c I can't think of any other reason)

3. If so, then how could L/R technique make her a lot faster than before regardless of whether she uses the actual technique?

If we agree on #1 and #2, then what I'm confused about is #3.

I believe its a combination of L/R + Jade Maiden. Jade Maiden performed by YG and XLN was already perfect speed/power wise, a good mix of both. I think YG and XLN still had the capacity to perform it faster.

Assuming this, XLN should be able to perform Jade Maiden even faster by herself with 2 hands instead of 2 people, lacking the power of the original 2 person combo.

Someone like GJ or ZBT wouldn't be able to abuse L/R to speed up because they are using 2 different arts that weren't meant for conjunction with another.

[Doc Kwok]

Exactly why I think it's a JY mistake/inconsistency and was only convenient for the QZ temple scene. Because XLN just wasn't so fast her 2nd time at Passionless valley.

It was specifically stated that because she had just recovered from a devastating injury and had poison coursing through her body that her inner power took a serious hit. I'd be inclined to give her a pass on that occasion.

[Doc Kwok]

So there are a couple of things to debate:

1. Is it true that post-L/R XLN is a lot faster than before, even when she's not using L/R technique? (I believe it's yes)

2. If so, then how did she gain this speed? Is it from L/R technique? (I believe yes, b/c I can't think of any other reason)

3. If so, then how could L/R technique make her a lot faster than before regardless of whether she uses the actual technique?

If we agree on #1 and #2, then what I'm confused about is #3.

I'm confused as well. From the novel:

二人不論如何心意相通，總不及一個人內心的意念如電，她此刻所使劍術勁力雖不及二人聯手，出手卻比之兩人同時要快上數倍。

No matter how much two people understand each other, it could not compare to the lightning-like speed of the thoughts of one person, although her swordsmanship at that moment was not as powerful as that of two people uniting, the speed of her attacks when compared to two people together were faster multiple times.

So XLN with L/R is not just double the speed of YG+XLN, but several times faster! The question then becomes how fast the YG+XLN combo are. Are YG+XLN actually a lot slower than YG or XLN alone due to the need to synchronise? Nothing in the novel indicates that this is the case, and although YG and XLN as individuals were always fast, they weren't almost supernaturally fast like XLN with L/R was.

[PJ]

I think XLN may have more "this shouldn't have happened" moments than other characters.

1. What we're talking about now: how did she get so fast
2. Why is her internal energy so low, when the ice bed was supposedly to improve your internal cultivation by a factor of TEN (Ken likes to say that AT is BS, but we know he is biased)
3. How her dress stayed white for 16 years
4. Why (she says) her martial arts didn't improve at all in 16 years, when we know that MA improves on its own without any training.