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Thread: Xiao Long Nu vs Linghu Chung

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    2. Why is her internal energy so low, when the ice bed was supposedly to improve your internal cultivation by a factor of TEN (Ken likes to say that AT is BS, but we know he is biased)
    The third edition has an answer to this - Ancient Tomb inner power doesn't increase your physical power at all, it just makes you faster and faster. She could have a hundred times more AT inner power, and she still wouldn't be able to knock the Mongolians' weapons aside (though she could probably teleport by then ).
    Last edited by Doc Kwok; 02-12-11 at 03:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Kwok View Post
    So XLN with L/R is not just double the speed of YG+XLN, but several times faster! The question then becomes how fast the YG+XLN combo are. Are YG+XLN actually a lot slower than YG or XLN alone due to the need to synchronise? Nothing in the novel indicates that this is the case, and although YG and XLN as individuals were always fast, they weren't almost supernaturally fast like XLN with L/R was.
    I'm fine with that statement that XLN with L/R = ~3x speed of XLN + YG. It seems consistent with the descriptions of her post-L/R fights.

    However, I believe it's b/c her overall speed has just been tripled (or quadrupled or whatever), which means it not only works when she's using L/R to execute Jade Maiden. So I believe the following sentence would also be true:

    the speed of her attacks when compared to before were faster multiple times.

    L/R is just a technique that lets you execute 2 arts at the same time, right? It has no property that I know of that allows you to increase your speed --> otherwise ZBT and GJ would also be 2-3x faster than usual when using L/R.

    But XLN definitely increased her speed by ~3x. I believe what happened was that something about L/R improved her OVERALL speed by ~3x. Maybe her mood helped as well -> she was at the peak of her sadness and confusion, so her MA should be more powerful than usual.

    Since XLN was said to have gained several times of speed when she uses 2 techniques, and using L/R doesn't increase your speed, then
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  3. #83
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Kwok View Post
    The third edition has an answer to this - Ancient Tomb inner power doesn't increase your physical power at all, it just makes you faster and faster. She could have a hundred times more AT inner power, and she still wouldn't be able to knock the Mongolians' weapons aside (though she could probably teleport by then ).
    Ah, ok. Then I suppose XLN and YG should be faster than they were in 2nd edition, since they slept on the bed for a long time?
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    I'm fine with that statement that XLN with L/R = ~3x speed of XLN + YG. It seems consistent with the descriptions of her post-L/R fights.

    However, I believe it's b/c her overall speed has just been tripled (or quadrupled or whatever), which means it not only works when she's using L/R to execute Jade Maiden. So I believe the following sentence would also be true:

    the speed of her attacks when compared to before were faster multiple times.

    L/R is just a technique that lets you execute 2 arts at the same time, right? It has no property that I know of that allows you to increase your speed --> otherwise ZBT and GJ would also be 2-3x faster than usual when using L/R.

    But XLN definitely increased her speed by ~3x. I believe what happened was that something about L/R improved her OVERALL speed by ~3x. Maybe her mood helped as well -> she was at the peak of her sadness and confusion, so her MA should be more powerful than usual.
    She is not YG.. sadness and confusion doesn't affect her MA =P. And it was stated even during her fight that her years in AT has always been able to restrain her emotions.
    And what you are saying makes logical sense, but it doesn't seem correct in the context of the story.
    JY never said "XLN after learning L/R has increased her overall speed naturally". He kept bringing in bad examples of how the mind is more connected and reflexes should be faster.

    And if we assume she somehow got an overall speed boost--
    I must ask, what then made her speed tripple between before and after L/R if it's not the L/R itself?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Kwok View Post
    It was specifically stated that because she had just recovered from a devastating injury and had poison coursing through her body that her inner power took a serious hit. I'd be inclined to give her a pass on that occasion.
    I can sort of believe that the recovery/internal may have affected her speed a bit. But I don't buy the poison bit. The poison acts up sporadically like seizures, but XLN never froze up half way through battle feeling the pain of the poison.

    So I believe her speed may not have been as fast as QZ temple incident, but it dropped way too much against GSZ

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    Well Jin Yong said that the skill level deteriorate over time. So I'm going with XLN on this one. She was from 1200's compared to Ling from the 1500's. Plus she wasn't no slouch to begin with plus look at her martial arts compared to his.

    (Taken from Wikipedia)
    Jade Maiden Heart Sutra (玉女心經)
    Jade Maiden Swordplay (玉女素心劍法)
    Fist of Beauties (美女拳法)
    Palm of Infinity Web (天羅地網式)
    Qinggong of the Ancient Tomb Sect (古墓派輕功)
    Technique of Ambidexterity (雙手互搏)
    Nine Yin Manual (九陰真經)


    vs

    Mount Hua Sect skills
    o Mount Hua Swordplay (華山劍法)
    o Grand Mountain Three Peaks Swordplay (太岳三青峰劍法)
    o Chongling Swordplay (沖靈劍法) - a form of swordplay invented by Linghu and Yue Lingshan. It is named after them.


    o Anti-Five Mountain Sword Sects Swordplay (破五嶽劍法) - discovered by Linghu on the walls of the Repentance Cliff. The scriptures were carved by members of the Sun Moon Holy Cult several years ago during a battle with the Five Mountain Sword Sects Alliance. Linghu masters the techniques and learns how to counter the swordplay styles of the five sects.

    o Nine Swords of Dugu (獨孤九劍) - taught to Linghu by Feng Qingyang.

    o Star-sucking Skill (吸星大法) - Ren Woxing's infamous skill. It allows the practitioner to absorb an opponent's inner energy. It is considered unorthodox by many pugilists because of its thieving nature. Linghu learns the skill from Ren and uses it build a strong inner energy foundation.

    o Sinew-changing Classic (易筋經) - taught to Linghu by Fangzheng of the Shaolin Sect. Linghu uses it to cure his internal wounds.


    I like her chances.

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    Well Jin Yong said that the skill level deteriorate over time.
    What? lol no
    Read the latest chapters of Coiling Dragon at Wuxia World!

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    linghuchong's dugujiujian thingy shouldn't work because if xiaolongnu did the yunuxinjing with left/right hand all the vulnerable spots would be covered.
    eventually, it would come down to a battle of internal power, and linghuchong would win.
    欲取鸣琴弹,恨无知音赏。~孟浩然

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snafu3721 View Post
    Hence this establishes that by reducing power, one can increase his/her speed. GJ executing palms/finger snaps w/o a weapon should be as fast if not faster than XLN swing her sword (since it's easier to flick your finger than it is to swing a sword). So if GJ just reduced his power and went all out for speed, I don't see why he would be slower than XLN in executing individual stances. And since GJ has more internal, he can theoretically reduce his power further than XLN's, thus gaining more speed (it would be like GJ throwing jabs instead of uppercuts). And even at XLN's speed, GJ's attacks would pack more punch than hers due to his higher internal. In the story, XLN didn't realize she would be capable of such speed at first, so maybe GJ didn't think of this idea either. But just imagine GJ reducing his power by a certain amount but matching XLN's speed, and he was shooting out finger snaps at the mercs with incredible speed?!
    The way I see it, while internal power can increase both your overall strength and speed, its usage is still dependent on technique (ie. XL18Z/Heavy Iron Sword uses internal power to amplify strength while Jade Maiden/Sunflower uses internal power to increase speed). Hence, it doesn't necessarily make sense for GJ to use his internal power for something that is not his forte. To draw an analogy, it's like comparing a tank to a race car. Both have extremely powerful engines, but are used for different purposes. Putting armor on the race car probably isn't going to make it that much stronger than the tank and making the tank lighter probably isn't going to make it faster than the race car.

    Or, in another comparison, the marathon runner and the sprinter. Both would improve with increased conditioning and muscle strength. However, the types of muscles that benefit the marathoner is different from the ones that benefit the sprinter. Hence, if you took the naturally built marathon runner than tried to train him as a sprinter, he will likely still be very fast, but not as fast as the naturally built sprinter (and vice versa). Hence, it would be a waste of his talents. Likewise, trying to make a power-dominant art into a speed-dependent art is a waste.

    In this case, GJ is still much faster than the average joe, but speed is not his forte. GJ's signature art of XL18Z relies on power, not speed. A powerful XL18Z is much more effective than a fast XL18Z. Like in all things, it is good to be versatile, but better to play with your strengths. The non-internal-power-buffered speed of XLN's arts (AT's arts) is much faster than GJ's arts. Hence, if the two were to be involved in a pure speed contest, GJ will have to use much more of his internal power to catch up with XLN's. The only question is, how much faster is the AT arts compared to GJ's arts and how much internal power does GJ need to use to match XLN's speed. The specific values to both of these is arbitrary and really depends on your opinion.

    However, keep in mind that GWM did (stupidly) try to compete with XLN in speed and his internal power at that point in the story is more or less in the same range as GJ's...and yet he could not "outspeed" her. Hence, using the same criteria, at that point in the story, it is unlikely that GJ could be faster than XLN. Unless, of course, you think that GJ is significantly faster than GWM.
    Last edited by Ren Ying Ying; 02-23-11 at 08:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying View Post
    The way I see it, while internal power can increase both your overall strength and speed, its usage is still dependent on technique (ie. XL18Z/Heavy Iron Sword uses internal power to amplify strength while Jade Maiden/Sunflower uses internal power to increase speed). Hence, it doesn't necessarily make sense for GJ to use his internal power for something that is not his forte. To draw an analogy, it's like comparing a tank to a race car. Both have extremely powerful engines, but are used for different purposes. Putting armor on the race car probably isn't going to make it that much stronger than the tank and making the tank lighter probably isn't going to make it faster than the race car.

    Or, in another comparison, the marathon runner and the sprinter. Both would improve with increased conditioning and muscle strength. However, the types of muscles that benefit the marathoner is different from the ones that benefit the sprinter. Hence, if you took the naturally built marathon runner than tried to train him as a sprinter, he will likely still be very fast, but not as fast as the naturally built sprinter (and vice versa). Hence, it would be a waste of his talents. Likewise, trying to make a power-dominant art into a speed-dependent art is a waste.

    In this case, GJ is still much faster than the average joe, but speed is not his forte. GJ's signature art of XL18Z relies on power, not speed. A powerful XL18Z is much more effective than a fast XL18Z. Like in all things, it is good to be versatile, but better to play with your strengths. The non-internal-power-buffered speed of XLN's arts (AT's arts) is much faster than GJ's arts. Hence, if the two were to be involved in a pure speed contest, GJ will have to use much more of his internal power to catch up with XLN's. The only question is, how much faster is the AT arts compared to GJ's arts and how much internal power does GJ need to use to match XLN's speed. The specific values to both of these is arbitrary and really depends on your opinion.

    However, keep in mind that GWM did (stupidly) try to compete with XLN in speed and his internal power at that point in the story is more or less in the same range as GJ's...and yet he could not "outspeed" her. Hence, using the same criteria, at that point in the story, it is unlikely that GJ could be faster than XLN. Unless, of course, you think that GJ is significantly faster than GWM.
    Agree with your analogies, but here are my thougts--

    1) GJ internal is like a jet rocket engine while XLN's is a Toyota

    2) GWM's internal is a rocket engine that is put inside a Toyota (due to crap technqiue so it's never properly used)

    3) XLN's sword weilding agility is the topic of contention in my last posts. Why was she so fast all of a sudden when weilding her 2 swords? She wasn't even HALF as fast when weilding one.

    4) ALthough AT martial arts focused on speed, as well as qinggong (the running, flying type). XLN obviously can't outrun any Greats as demonstrated in her match against QQR. And YG who learned AT isn't very fast either, even after he accumulated the internal strength lvls of a Great. If we're assuming that AT arts give a speed boost, then YG post 16-yrs should be as fast as DC's Flash due to his upgraded internal "engine"
    Last edited by Snafu3721; 02-23-11 at 09:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snafu3721 View Post
    Agree with your analogies, but here are my thougts--

    1) GJ internal is like a jet rocket engine while XLN's is a Toyota

    2) GWM's internal is a rocket engine that is put inside a Toyota (due to crap technqiue so it's never properly used)

    3) XLN's sword weilding agility is the topic of contention in my last posts. Why was she so fast all of a sudden when weilding her 2 swords? She wasn't even HALF as fast when weilding one.

    4) ALthough AT martial arts focused on speed, as well as qinggong (the running, flying type). XLN obviously can't outrun any Greats as demonstrated in her match against QQR. And YG who learned AT isn't very fast either, even after he accumulated the internal strength lvls of a Great. If we're assuming that AT arts give a speed boost, then YG post 16-yrs should be as fast as DC's Flash due to his upgraded internal "engine"
    1) Obviously, GJ's internal is a lot higher than XLN's...this, we can all agree. The thing is, the "speed" of an object not only depends on the force & power pushing it, but also the mass and shape of the object pushed. In that case, we don't actually know how the objects that each engine is pushing (or pulling).

    2) While GJ's technique is better than GWM's (who was said to have more strength than GJ), there is no evidence that GJ's techniques are actually "faster" by nature (unlike AT that uses quickness as it's premise, GJ's arts usually heavily rely on strength). In this case, if you want to say GWM packaged his engine in a Toyota, then perhaps GJ packaged his engine in a Mersedes. Fancier car, it is, but not necessarily faster.

    3) Of course, some things are a mystery that we can only make guesses at. It does make sense that XLN is faster with 2 swords since she's twice as efficient. Yet, I get the impression that XLN's speed benefitted more than just the normal 2X efficiency. However, GJ & ZBT only showed the normal 2X efficiency speed when they perform L/R and no extra gain in speed without L/R. My guess is that it has more to do with the combination of Jade Maiden combo (made possible by L/R technique). However, as PJ says, there is no extensive explanation, hence your guess is probably as good as mine.

    4) QQR is also known for his qinggong (hence the "float on water" nickname). Is he necessarily faster than the other Greats? That, I am not sure. YG has also learned the AT qinggong, but somehow he is still inferior to XLN in that department. I don't know why. Perhaps it's because he has less years of training?
    Per ROCH 2nd Ed. Ch. 30: "一个是轻功天下无双的古墓派传人,一个是号称“铁掌水上飘”的成名英雄,霎时之间赶出数十丈,在雪地中成 为两个黑点。杨过生怕慈恩忽又恶性发作,加害小龙女,当即追上相护。他轻功不及二人,但内功既厚,脚下劲力自长,初时和二人相距甚远,行不到半个时辰,前面二人的背影越来越是清 晰。"

    Who is DC?
    Last edited by Ren Ying Ying; 02-23-11 at 11:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying View Post
    2) While GJ's technique is better than GWM's (who was said to have more strength than GJ), there is no evidence that GJ's techniques are actually "faster" by nature (unlike AT that uses quickness as it's premise, GJ's arts usually heavily rely on strength). In this case, if you want to say GWM packaged his engine in a Toyota, then perhaps GJ packaged his engine in a Mersedes. Fancier car, it is, but not necessarily faster.
    Although the AT martial arts are supposed to be speed based, it was never demonstrated as being "faster" in actual stance execution. For someone like XLN who practiced her entire life, she was never able to "out speed" another opponent prior to L/R.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying
    3) Of course, some things are a mystery that we can only make guesses at. It does make sense that XLN is faster with 2 swords since she's twice as efficient. Yet, I get the impression that XLN's speed benefitted more than just the normal 2X efficiency. However, GJ & ZBT only showed the normal 2X efficiency speed when they perform L/R and no extra gain in speed without L/R. My guess is that it has more to do with the combination of Jade Maiden combo (made possible by L/R technique). However, as PJ says, there is no extensive explanation, hence your guess is probably as good as mine.
    XLN with 2 swords in and of itself wouldn't make her twice as efficient. If so, then anyone weilding 2 weapons i/o 1 would be twice as efficient.
    I also don't think it's L/R + Jade Maiden combo because it would make no sense that her entire body sped up as a result. As Doc Kwok posted earlier, when YG + XLN execute the Jade Maiden together, they are not able to perform it at a speed that even comes close to XLN alone. That just doesn't make sense beause even if your reaction time is faster due to L/R, your whole body doesn't get faster.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying
    4) QQR is also known for his qinggong (hence the "float on water" nickname). Is he necessarily faster than the other Greats? That, I am not sure. YG has also learned the AT qinggong, but somehow he is still inferior to XLN in that department. I don't know why. Perhaps it's because he has less years of training?
    QQR is supposed to be known for his qing gong, yet he never out runs any of the Greats. If QQR is only marginally weaker but has similar internal lvls, shouldn't he be leagues faster? Since he specializes in qing gong?

    YG has not practiced as long as XLN, but he did master all the AT martial arts. So by giving him a huge internal boost, he should get a massive speed boost. Because he can utilize all his AT skills with his newfound internal.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying
    Who is DC?
    I was making a reference to DC comic books and the character Flash

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    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snafu3721 View Post
    Although the AT martial arts are supposed to be speed based, it was never demonstrated as being "faster" in actual stance execution. For someone like XLN who practiced her entire life, she was never able to "out speed" another opponent prior to L/R.
    I'm not sure what you mean. AT martial arts does place an emphesis on speed, but not based on speed only. That is, the "brilliance" of the stance is also needed (it isn't Sunflower Manual). But the two are not mutually exclusive. Plus, it had been demonstrated multiple times how a superior qinggong has helped to YG or XLN's advantage (ie. at the Hero's feast). Still, this has nothing to do with the comparison between GWM & GJ. We assume that GJ has better technique than GWM because of their exchange at the Lu Manor, in which it is stated that GJ's XL18Z is superior to GWM's palm technique, hence making up for GWM's slightly superior strength. The importance point being, even if GJ has superior technique (which actually improves power/force rather than speed), it does not mean GJ will be able to out-speed GWM. Hence, if GWM cannot out-speed XLN, then there is no indication that GJ could even if he had a massive internal power advantage. This is irrelevent to whether or not XLN was able to "outspeed" an opponent prior to learning L/R.

    XLN with 2 swords in and of itself wouldn't make her twice as efficient. If so, then anyone weilding 2 weapons i/o 1 would be twice as efficient.
    I also don't think it's L/R + Jade Maiden combo because it would make no sense that her entire body sped up as a result. As Doc Kwok posted earlier, when YG + XLN execute the Jade Maiden together, they are not able to perform it at a speed that even comes close to XLN alone. That just doesn't make sense beause even if your reaction time is faster due to L/R, your whole body doesn't get faster.
    It does make her twice as efficient in terms of speed (just as it does for GJ & ZBT). As explained in the novel, the L/R technique is different from a simple double weapon user because the L/R actually represents two different people fighting (hence twice the efficiency in terms of stance). The two weapons move INDEPENDENT of each other. Whereas, in double weapond, such as Gongsun Zhi's sabre-sword combo, the two weapons come together to create only ONE stance. The movement of one weapon is DEPENDENT on the other.

    As for what attributes to the increase in her body's speed, we he 3 options.
    1. L/R technique alone
    2. Jade Maiden combo alone
    3. Jade Maiden combo being performed by one person due to L/R
    4. Other

    GJ & ZBT demonstrates that L/R alone has no bearing on overall body speed, so it is most likely NOT the cause. YG & XLN performing Jade Maiden combo was not mentioned to increase speed, so it is likely NOT the cause. Option 3 has no specific explaination, but there is also no control comparison to rule it out either. So if you don't option 3, then take option 4 and be creative .

    QQR is supposed to be known for his qing gong, yet he never out runs any of the Greats. If QQR is only marginally weaker but has similar internal lvls, shouldn't he be leagues faster? Since he specializes in qing gong?
    Not specifically out-running them doesn't mean he is unable to. Here's an excerpt from LOCH Ch. 29 where it states that QQR's qinggong is superior to ZBT's, yet he did not want to chase too closely simply because he was afraid to actually fight ZBT.
    "裘千仞一怔,过了半晌,方始会意他原来怕蛇。这一来,局面立时逆转,裘千仞左手再捉了一条蛇,大喊大叫, 随后赶来。周伯通吓得心胆俱裂,发足狂奔。裘千仞号称“铁掌水上飘”,轻身功夫还在他之上,若非对他心有忌惮,不敢过份逼近,早已追上。两人一逃一追,闹到天黑,周伯通才得乘机脱身。裘千仞这番追赶其实也是以进为退,心中只有暗暗好笑,却不 敢当真追逐。第二日周伯通抢到一匹骏马,加鞭东归,只怕给裘千仞追上了。"

    So while QQR is not leaving the Greats in the dust in terms of speed, we can confirm that indeed he moves faster than ZBT. Whether you want to believe if ZBT is faster or slower than the other Greats is up to you.

    YG has not practiced as long as XLN, but he did master all the AT martial arts. So by giving him a huge internal boost, he should get a massive speed boost. Because he can utilize all his AT skills with his newfound internal.
    So...shouldn't that demonstrate the point that just because one has a massive amount of internal energy, it doesn't mean one can have a massive speed boost?
    YG's qing gong technique is the same as XLN's, but even with the large advantage in internal power, he is still not her match in terms of qing gong. Hence, even if GJ & other greats have a massive internal energy advantage, it doesn't mean they are necessarily faster than XLN. In other words, depending on the technique, the exchange of power for speed is not necessarily 1:1.
    Last edited by Ren Ying Ying; 02-24-11 at 01:27 AM.

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    Let me sum up my thoughts so it's easier to see where I'm going =)


    1) There are 2 types of speed. One is the speed in which a person executes stances or techniques (let's call it agility). The other is the speed at which the person maneuvers (let's call it qing gong)
    2) It has been demonstrated numerous times in various JY novels that internal energy correlates with one's speed (both types) regardless of what martial arts that individual learns. More internal = more speed
    3) L/R gives an individual faster reaction time, which is not an increase in speed of either above mentioned types. Because if L/R gives any type of agility or qing gong boost, then ZBT and GJ should get a huge boost as wel
    4) YG also knows Jade Maiden. His speed is not particularly impressive even with internal energy boost, which usually gives one a speed boost. Hence demonstrating that AT isn't THAT impressive when it comes to speed
    5) YG and XLN demonstrated at Hero's feast impressive qing gong, but not impressive agility. Otherwise YG and XLN would be able to outstrike anyone in terms of speed, which they couldn't
    6) QQR had slightly better qing gong than ZBT in LOCH. But not much faster in ROCH when XLN, QQR, and ZBT had a race. ZBT was carrying XLN with one arm and still runing just as fast as QQR.

    So why then does XLN get this super increase in speed at Mt. Chong Nan?! Which she later seems to have lost when she fights GSZ?
    If it's the combination of L/R + Jade Maiden that gives her a huge agility and qing gong boost, then why? Because Jade Maiden by itself has no speed inducing properties. In fact, of all the AT martial arts, the Jade Maiden should be the slowest of all... since half of it is done with QZ sword techniques, which has no emphasis on speed.

    I just can't accept that XLN is supposed to be that fast. I believe it's a JY mistake during her fight wtih GWM.
    Last edited by Snafu3721; 02-24-11 at 01:45 AM.

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    I'm not sure exactly which is your main point. Is it that you don't believe XLN's speed is greater than GWM? Or are you simply wondering what caused XLN to have an increase in speed?

    If the former, it was specifically stated. I'm not sure if it's even arguable. XLN is similarily able to fight GSZ with superior skill, but she was also poisoned and lacked strength and will to kill, hence looking much less impressive than she did against QZ sect. However, it does not necessarily contradict her performance against QZ sect. It doesn't really matter if the explanation for her increase in speed isn't explained in detail. Unfortunately, these things happen in wuxia stories--if specifically stated, it really doesn't matter whether or not you think it's physically possible or logical (hence why so many people have beef with Dugu 9 Sword).

    As I've said before, while internal energy will boost your speed, there is no specific measurement of exactly how much internal energy is required to increase a specific amount of speed. Hence, just because GWM has a massive advantage in internal power doesn't necessarily mean he is able to make up for the lack of speed.

    If the latter, since we can agree that neither pure L/R nor pure Jade Maiden Combo demonstrate increase in speed, and you don't like the L/R+Jade Maiden Combo explaination, then go ahead and be creative .

  16. #96
    Senior Member Snafu3721's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying View Post
    If the latter, since we can agree that neither pure L/R nor pure Jade Maiden Combo demonstrate increase in speed, and you don't like the L/R+Jade Maiden Combo explaination, then go ahead and be creative .
    Of course we know that JY wanted to show that XLN at Mt. Chong Nan has amazing speed, but the logic doesn't add up. So either JY messed up (which he does often and is acceptable), or there should be a better reason why XLN got so fast and was able to fight GWM (which we don't have).

    As for the GSZ, I also addressed that point before. The poison wasn't affecting her that much because it's the passion flower poison. It kicks in like sporatically with pain when she is thinking about her loved one. So the poison by itself should have minimal impact on her fighting unless she was thinking of YG the whole time. And the whole "will to kill" thing doesn't work for someone like XLN who is not affected emotion (she also didn't want to kill GWM or the Mercs but obviously can still muster up the will to fight).

    And I'm not arguing that GWM should be as fast as XLN due to his high internal I'm arguing there are too many holes in the plot.

    GWM having internal doesn't mean he should be faster since he doesn't have AT martial arts. But YG does, and he has Greats lvl internal-- why is he not faster than XLN?---> if the answer is "he doesn't have L/R"---> why doesn't GJ or ZBT have super speed? They have super internal AND L/R!----> that's cuz they don't have Jade Maiden-----> So you must have both Jade Maiden and L/R to be fast... why?? How does the combination of the 2 make you faster?

    And as PJ pointed out earlier in the post, XLN's ONE single stroke with ONE arm was so fast that the mongol mercs can't react or see it. Why? This can't be due to L/R cuz she was just striking with ONE arm. Therefore it must mean that her overall speed has increased----> Why? what made her so fast? JY said it was L/R that increased her speed because it increased her reaction time----> but she struck with one arm!! So no L/R involved!

    My main point is that JY probably messed up because in his own wuxia universe thee logic can't fully explain why XLN is so fast.
    Last edited by Snafu3721; 02-24-11 at 03:25 AM.

  17. #97
    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snafu3721 View Post
    As for the GSZ, I also addressed that point before. The poison wasn't affecting her that much because it's the passion flower poison. It kicks in like sporatically with pain when she is thinking about her loved one. So the poison by itself should have minimal impact on her fighting unless she was thinking of YG the whole time. And the whole "will to kill" thing doesn't work for someone like XLN who is not affected emotion (she also didn't want to kill GWM or the Mercs but obviously can still muster up the will to fight).
    It wasn't just the passion valley poison, but also from GWM's sneak attack + LMC's poison palms. (ROCH ed. 2 Ch. 32 "小龙女自是得了周伯通的传授,双剑合璧,本来威力奇大,但她重伤之后加上中毒,内力大损,出剑乏劲,始终 无法取胜。) Still, it was clearly stated that XLN had the advantage in terms of technique. (只有一灯、杨过、黄蓉、朱子柳四人才瞧出小龙女招数实占上风).

    GWM having internal doesn't mean he should be faster since he doesn't have AT martial arts. But YG does, and he has Greats lvl internal-- why is he not faster than XLN?---> if the answer is "he doesn't have L/R"---> why doesn't GJ or ZBT have super speed? They have super internal AND L/R!----> that's cuz they don't have Jade Maiden-----> So you must have both Jade Maiden and L/R to be fast... why?? How does the combination of the 2 make you faster?

    My main point is that JY probably messed up because in his own wuxia universe thee logic can't fully explain why XLN is so fast
    "Logic" can only be created based on the rules and criteria of the world we know. For example, killing someone to avenge for somebody badmouthing you may "logical" in the martial arts world, but not so much in real life because we live by different rules. Our physical world is dictated by the rules of physics that we know, hence we know that people can't actually jump 20 feet into the leap on a regular basis nor blast things away from 20 feet out with the strike of a palm. However, the rules of wuxia physics are different and such feats are completely "logical" in the wuxia realm.

    Likewise, the world of wuxia and it's martial arts is dictated by JY's rules. Perhaps you, JY, and I just happen to have different rules about what should dictate the progress of one's martial arts? Since this is JY's novel, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt unless contradicted otherwise.

    In any case, it is not uncommon for someone's martial arts level to increase at a rate in which the parts don't match the whole. For example, it was said that after GJ learned the last stance of XL18Z, his efficiency on all the other palms also increased. Or how Shi Potian suddenly gets a massive boost in internal energy simply because he was able to combine two opposing types of energy together. Hence, if JY really means for XLN's boost in speed/technique because she was able to combined two martial arts together, then so be it. If you have a better explaination, then that's fine, too. However, I do believe that the "JY messed up" route shouldn't be used unless all other possibilities are actually contradicted (ie. someone else learns the same thing but doesn't get the same effect without a specific explanation) .
    Last edited by Ren Ying Ying; 02-24-11 at 04:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying View Post
    In any case, it is not uncommon for someone's martial arts level to increase at a rate in which the parts don't match the whole. For example, it was said that after GJ learned the last stance of XL18Z, his efficiency on all the other palms also increased. Or how Shi Potian suddenly gets a massive boost in internal energy simply because he was able to combine two opposing types of energy together. Hence, if JY really means for XLN's boost in speed/technique because she was able to combined two martial arts together, then so be it. If you have a better explaination, then that's fine, too. However, I do believe that the "JY messed up" route shouldn't be used unless all other possibilities are actually contradicted (ie. someone else learns the same thing but doesn't get the same effect without a specific explanation) .
    There are always details writers forget about when creating a novel, especially one that was printed in segments.

    The only explanation for XLN's speed would be to accept that L/R + Jade Maiden somehow increased her speed 10 fold. So far there is nothing that justifies this IMHO. I am not denying that it didn't happen. I just think something doesn't add up and the facts seem inconsistent

    Hence, I chuck it to the "JY messed up" category.
    Last edited by Snafu3721; 02-25-11 at 11:58 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aliderhamy View Post
    So with his limitless internal energy + his super natural talent at fighting... (dont forget this dude was taking on guys a lot more powerfull then himself with share tallent and fast mind at the beggining of the book) +dogu sword form... he is clearly = go jing and yang go, let along dragon girl... i just dont understand this comparison.
    I don't know what novel you're reading, but JY himself has debunked this silly theory in an interview. He explicitly mentioned that LHC's internal is considerably worse than YG's on account to YG's training in the waterfall. LHC's swordsmanship is superior, but his internal is far behind that of the Great level of ROCH. And as JY implies, the raw power of internal can trump speed and technical brilliance, such as when he mentioned that XLN would have lost if GWM had bothered to exert his internal energy into his attacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snafu3721 View Post
    @PJ

    XLN didn't think know she can speed blitz at first either. In the beginning, she was just using Jade Maiden with 2 swords by herself, which was fast... but nothing incredible yet. Then she started to juggle the swords and started creating faster and faster attacks without really realizing it. So maybe GJ could also stumble upon this discovery since I believe his hand agility and techniques we're in no way inferior to XLN's.
    Who knows. I think the juggling and Jade Maiden was more or less a technical skill that XLN had learned through her martial arts training. Thus, it isn't simply analogous to some amount of "hand agility." XLN could do it because her training had always focused on speed and precision instead of raw power. I don't think it's fair to say that anyone of that level or higher could do it. By all accounts, it was a fairly specific technique.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snafu3721 View Post
    Of course we know that JY wanted to show that XLN at Mt. Chong Nan has amazing speed, but the logic doesn't add up.
    The point is that the logic doesn't need to add up. JY explicitly stated that XLN was ungodly fast in that particular fight. You can fanwank all the reasons you want for why she wasn't quite as fast earlier or later, or whether she lost her speed or ability (I don't really see any specific mention of it), but the fact that she moved as fast as she did is absolute canon.

    Accept it to save yourself some headache.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChanceEncounter View Post
    The point is that the logic doesn't need to add up. JY explicitly stated that XLN was ungodly fast in that particular fight. You can fanwank all the reasons you want for why she wasn't quite as fast earlier or later, or whether she lost her speed or ability (I don't really see any specific mention of it), but the fact that she moved as fast as she did is absolute canon.

    Accept it to save yourself some headache.
    I can accept and enjoy JY's novels as it is written. But I don't have to agree with the logic of all details. It's like reading Superman and thinking "Why doesn't his hair or suit ever burn up?" There are many "canon" explanations... but the logic is sort of bad.


    As many others have pointed out in the past, there would be no point to having this forum or discussing various topics if we were to just accept everything as is and never ask any questions. Part of the fun is doing some critical analysis of what the writers actually created vs what he probably intended.

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