Xiao Long Nu vs Linghu Chung

[Doc Kwok]

But that's the thing, it really doesn't matter what DFBB's internal energy was for this because if he's faster then he's faster. It's not like DFBB is using the internal energy to smash through. It was simply sheer speed.

It matters, because when LHC was fighting DFBB alone, DFBB was able to either deflect or stop all his attacks head on with the needle, all by moving his arm without needing to retreat at all. XLN would not be able to do that, and so would need to retreat/advance again, which would take much longer (relatively).

DFBB actually took it up another notch. DFBB moved after LHC initiated an attack, reached just close enough to prick him with just enough time to fully retreat faster than the sword stab and block it. Think about the monstrous speed this implies. DFBB moves faster than LHC can stab his sword.

Actually, DFBB moved first. At the start of the fight, LHC was watching him carefully, and as soon as he saw his sleeve move, he attacked back. DFBB pricked him, then retracted his arm and blocked the sword without retreating. After that, LHC attacked several times and was blocked each time, then DFBB attacked his eye, at which point LHC thrust back. DFBB pricked his eyebrow, and only then did he jump aside.

[CancerLuna]

Very long post ahead!

Actually it was the QZ taoists (the strongest of which is still somewhat weaker than the Mongolian warriors) who saw XLN as a blur. And they only said they couldn't see the stances not XLN herself.

Furthermore, GWM himself wasn't that much slower than XLN even though speed wasn't his forte at all. He competed for a while before he finally took three light hits.

Actually, it seems the mongol mercs had many chances to get killed, XLN had many chances to aim her attacks at them instead of the taoist before they went into 100% defense mode.
Just some quotes from translation on XLN and her speed, alot of her feats remind me of DFBB's feats versus the SOD trio.

How Xiao Longnu had pierced him, the other people were still completely baffled by it. Her rapid and skilful sword methods had reached a point where not only do her routes leave no trace, it’s as if she can block one person and still injure her foe at will.

Somehow, while attacking two formidable fighters, she managed to find time to wound him again.

I wouldn't be surprised if XLN was quicker than GJ. GJ's forte isn't speed after all and XLN's martial arts focus solely on that. However, the point is that lower level fighters seeing a blur is not a useful comparing tool.

My thought, is that even though GJ and GWM aren't known for speed, they are still several tiers higher than the SOD trio in speed, and most likely even with DFBB in speed. I rank them in the same tier. Its like saying Jordan isn't known for his 3 pointer, but his shooting ability is still several times higher than someone who's famous for shooting in high school basketball.

Another analogy is, Goku, from DBZ, isn't known for his speed, but he is also much faster than people below him on the tier scale, and only his equals, or those on the same tier as him can see him.

As for impressiveness, #2 has nothing to do with strength. They aren't having the moves blowing through their defense. It was simply so fast that they couldn't move to do anything about it. The Mongolian warriors were quite capable of fully defending against XLN's attack.

Firstly, I was strictly answering the question, ignoring how you connected 1 to XLN and 2 to DFBB.

In any case, which is more impressive?
(1) to launch an attack your opponent can't see but they still manage to block it
(2) to launch an attack your opponent can see but they still can't block it

If you look at these questions by themselves, my answer to your question is correct. Another thing, the question is set up so that #2 is the obvious pick to be superior. If I shall rephrase it, I'd rephrase it like this, regarding XLN vs mongols and DFBB vs sod trio.

(1) to not only survive, but put 3 warriors into absolute defense, despite being weaker, using only superior speed and technique
(2) to dominate 3 warriors, both weaker, and slower than yourself by a lot

DFBB actually took it up another notch. DFBB moved after LHC initiated an attack, reached just close enough to prick him with just enough time to fully retreat faster than the sword stab and block it. Think about the monstrous speed this implies. DFBB moves faster than LHC can stab his sword.

I think Doc Kwok responded to this already.

Fast as XLN was, she still wasn't quick enough to penetrate the Mongolian warriors' guards meaning she was faster than them but not their weapons.

She was able to penetrate their guard several times. It was only after they basically conceded that they wouldn't win, that ALL of them put up their guards and refused to attack anymore.

So you're pretty much saying that DFBB is less impressive because he's more impressive in the first place.

Can't it just as easily be said that XLN's feat isn't that impressive since her lightness kungfu technique was so much better than the Mongolian warriors? Why, if they had the same technique, she wouldn't be able to beat them in speed at all!

I'm saying DFBB's speed feat is less impressive than XLN's speed feat because DFBB dominated 3 warriors clearly inferior to him. If you rank RWX at LOCH level, and DFBB at ROCH Guo Jing Tier, RWX would be less than half his power level, LHC even worse, and XWT should get KO'ed in one hit after that. XLN's feat involved her fighting people that the novel says are superior to her(in power).

Furthermore, most of DFBB's speed feats are accompanied by his massive internal, like Doc Kwok said in last post

Actually, DFBB moved first. At the start of the fight, LHC was watching him carefully, and as soon as he saw his sleeve move, he attacked back. DFBB pricked him, then retracted his arm and blocked the sword without retreating. After that, LHC attacked several times and was blocked each time, then DFBB attacked his eye, at which point LHC thrust back. DFBB pricked his eyebrow, and only then did he jump aside.

This blocking with the needle would definitely not happen, if DFBB didn't have more internal than LHC.

Xiao Longnu was unfortunate not to have stronger inner energy and therefore her sword moves lacked the potency that’s needed to disarm her opponents. Had she roughly similar inner energy to either of the three, their defense would’ve been breached long before.

I'd like to imagine DFBB with, even RWX tier internal. DFBB speed won't save him now, since his internal just got severely downgraded. Or we can even put DFBB's internal at XWT level. Now its not even a chance that he would survive.

For the record, I'd like to believe DFBB to be at GJ/YG level and on the same tier as them internal/speed wise. It'd make all of their speed feats reasonable since all three showed insane speed against weaker opponents. I think if GJ was there in place of DFBB, he could also solo the Sod crew.

[PJ]

What do you guys think about GREAT WHEEL MONK Jiumozhi's speed? I was always very impressed by his complete flooring of Murong Fu:

Jiumozhi shouted: "I've spared you in the first 10 stances, now face your doom!"

Before Murong Fu could see, his eyes had lost contact with the opponent. Shadows of Jiumozhi appeared in every direction. A kick would come from the left, a punch from the right, a palm from straight ahead, a jab from behind. All of these heterogeneous attacks charged at him at once; Murong Fu did not have the slightest mechanism for countering.

[Snafu3721]

In ROCH, Jin Yong still believed that speed was no match for raw power, hence his comment that GWM could have smashed through XLN with his raw power. Hence why all the Greats are > XLN despite her superhuman speed.

So I guess by that logic, Guo Jing using L/R with more speed and less power is not a big advantage over the normal GJ; might even be worse off.

What I meant by my previous post was not whether the Greats can or can not beat XLN in a fight by using internal power, but that I don't see why XLN's speed was individual to her only.

By JY's description, her solo L/R Jade Maiden was fast because one person's reflexes are still faster than 2 people's. That means theoretically, GJ's reflexes would be faster when he performs L/R as well. Now, XLN with 2 swords weren't really an issue to the mongol mercs as far as speed is concerned. But she became "faster" when she started juggling multiple swords. But each time she juggled an extra set of swords, her power reduced. JY mentioned that when she juggled 4 swords, it was weaker than we she was using only 2 swords.

Hence this establishes that by reducing power, one can increase his/her speed. GJ executing palms/finger snaps w/o a weapon should be as fast if not faster than XLN swing her sword (since it's easier to flick your finger than it is to swing a sword). So if GJ just reduced his power and went all out for speed, I don't see why he would be slower than XLN in executing individual stances. And since GJ has more internal, he can theoretically reduce his power further than XLN's, thus gaining more speed (it would be like GJ throwing jabs instead of uppercuts). And even at XLN's speed, GJ's attacks would pack more punch than hers due to his higher internal. In the story, XLN didn't realize she would be capable of such speed at first, so maybe GJ didn't think of this idea either. But just imagine GJ reducing his power by a certain amount but matching XLN's speed, and he was shooting out finger snaps at the mercs with incredible speed?!

And then there is GSZ who fought XLN just fine for hundreds of stances and EVERYONE there (HR, 1-Deng,Yelu Qi, Guo Fu) could see their moves clearly. What happened to her speed?

[aliderhamy]

XLN > GWM
GJ >= OYF
GJ >= GWM
GWM > LOCH QQR, assuming greats leveled up after LOCH, and QQR being slightly below greats

If the minimum level RWX is at is LOCH QQR, the minimal level LHC is at is below QQR, who is below both GWM and XLN.

GWM's only advantage on XLN is his superior inner power which he could have utilized to win. LHC doesn't have as much inner power. He doesn't seem to have anything going for him.

Sidenote,
Didn't LHC think he would have lost to LPZ if they fought one on one, and LPZ strength was his overwhelming speed. XLN is just a souped up version of that.

Clearly dragon girl in ROCH is not that impressive....


she allways relies on yang go.....

i dont know what book you guys read... but while her level is flexible (she was young and smart... and mysterious) she is not on GJ.. YG or GWM level... and LHC clearly is... with his demonic energy sorb and tendon ultering internal energy (good and evil / yin and yang the two highest level martial arts of both sides) he would easily be on the level of 9 ying/ yang manual (dont forget these 2 manual were complied by monk who was simply trying to gather the teaching of toasim)...

So with his limitless internal energy + his super natural talent at fighting... (dont forget this dude was taking on guys a lot more powerfull then himself with share tallent and fast mind at the beggining of the book) +dogu sword form... he is clearly = go jing and yang go, let along dragon girl... i just dont understand this comparison.

[PJ]

What I meant by my previous post was not whether the Greats can or can not beat XLN in a fight by using internal power, but that I don't see why XLN's speed was individual to her only.

What I tried to say in my reply was that you're right, it should not be specific for XLN only. The reason others don't do it is that Jin Yong thinks speed is inferior to raw power, so high level exponents always focused on raw power. GJ can do it, but he is better off without it.

[tape]

LHC is superior to them in sword fighting, but as late as the Shaolin fights, he couldn't understand the palm exchanges between Fang Zheng and Ren Woxing, nevermind break them. If the Greats just used their signature arts like Dragon Palms or Mighty Snap, LHC would be overwhelmed easily. His inner strength, though good in theory, lacks time and experience. He had a year at most to cultivate, while the other guys have been doing it for decades.

With regards to his energy absorbing, it's probably going to be useless against them. He couldn't absorb ZLC or FZ's inner strength, so I doubt he could absorb the ROCH peoples' either, as their cultivation and control is probably greater.

That is why we are debating XLN and LHC, because LHC versus GJ would be a stompfest.

[Snafu3721]

What I tried to say in my reply was that you're right, it should not be specific for XLN only. The reason others don't do it is that Jin Yong thinks speed is inferior to raw power, so high level exponents always focused on raw power. GJ can do it, but he is better off without it.

I think in ROCH JY tends to bevery situation specific and character specific when he wants to illustrate a point. It seems he has less overall consistency based on what he says (or builds up) vs the feats the characters actually displays. One example is the whole 1-deng can't write on wood/stone etc. If YG's palm wind can cause a hairpin to meld with iron, and finger snap can neutralize this palm energy, and 1-yang is supposed to be on par/better than finger snap... why can't it carve stone?

Just running off your idea on raw power (I agree with you that JY definitely focused more on internal and raw powerat the time of writing the triology). When you mentioned GJ can be faster but may be better off without. Do you believe this would be true vs an internal powerhouse like GWM? Or if would actually benefit GJ to adopt the L/R blitz strategy? i would like to hear your thoughts on this

[PJ]

Just running off your idea on raw power (I agree with you that JY definitely focused more on internal and raw powerat the time of writing the triology). When you mentioned GJ can be faster but may be better off without. Do you believe this would be true vs an internal powerhouse like GWM? Or if would actually benefit GJ to adopt the L/R blitz strategy? i would like to hear your thoughts on this

I'm not sure someone like GJ can do it. He and everyone else have been so keen on internal energy-based fighting. The speed-based fighting strategy is so different, it might require a fresh mind to adopt.

Assuming he can adopt, I think it would be way more effective at initially overwhelming/distracting a straightforward opponent than if both used straightforward fighting strategy. But once/if the opponent figures out he can overpower you using raw power (like JY said GWM can do), then it won't be effective any more.

[tape]

The speed blitz attack would be a good strategy for someone like Guo Jing to use. It's something in his arsenal that he can attempt to use, and if it proves advantageous, continue doing it or switch it up if it's not getting him anywhere. Unlike XLN, GWM wouldn't be able to just blast him because he can actually block and switch it up. I figure variety is always good, as Huang Yaoshi uses speed blitz in a sense and he's not any bit inferior to his peers.

[PJ]

The speed blitz attack would be a good strategy for someone like Guo Jing to use. It's something in his arsenal that he can attempt to use, and if it proves advantageous, continue doing it or switch it up if it's not getting him anywhere. Unlike XLN, GWM wouldn't be able to just blast him because he can actually block and switch it up. I figure variety is always good, as Huang Yaoshi uses speed blitz in a sense and he's not any bit inferior to his peers.

I don't believe HYS ever used superhuman speed against a peer, did he? It's common to use it against a lower class opponent and many people have done that, but usually not against a peer.

Somehow, I have some trouble picturing GJ running around like XLN and DFBB.

XF and XYS do something similar but different: they run around really fast and unpredictably and rip people apart. So it looks ultra-masculine, and it's more effective than straightforward fighting. But I don't think that fits GJ's personality either.

[Snafu3721]

@PJ

XLN didn't think know she can speed blitz at first either. In the beginning, she was just using Jade Maiden with 2 swords by herself, which was fast... but nothing incredible yet. Then she started to juggle the swords and started creating faster and faster attacks without really realizing it. So maybe GJ could also stumble upon this discovery since I believe his hand agility and techniques we're in no way inferior to XLN's.

@Tape
That's what I felt too. Seems straightforward internal powerhouses like GWM is weak and susceptible to these fast/weird blitzes. And I don't think GWM can rely on overpowering GJ with raw internal. Hence it is the perfect strategy against someone like GWM.

[Snafu3721]

Somehow, I have some trouble picturing GJ running around like XLN and DFBB.

Definitely hard to imagine...since it doesn't suit his character to prance/flutter around
But GJ should be as fast if not faster than XLN in both agility and mobility.

YG prior to reaching Greats status can run around as fast as XLN due to his AZ training. Just think of YG and then imagine GJ

[PJ]

@PJ

XLN didn't think know she can speed blitz at first either. In the beginning, she was just using Jade Maiden with 2 swords by herself, which was fast... but nothing incredible yet. But she started to juggle the swords and started creating faster and faster attacks without really realizing it. So maybe GJ could also stumble upon this discovery since I believe his hand agility and techniques we're in no way inferior to XLN's.

But GJ did use L/R several times in the novel. I don't remember that he felt any speed improvement, which he should have if L/R automatically speeds you up, which is what I think you're implying with XLN.

[Snafu3721]

But GJ did use L/R several times in the novel. I don't remember that he felt any speed improvement, which he should have if L/R automatically speeds you up, which is what I think you're implying with XLN.

Yep...
So it's either a case of "JY plot device/inconsistency" or based on demonstrated feats, one should logicall assume L/R would naturally speed up GJ as well

It's not the Jade Maiden that speeds up XLN, it's the L/R (as stated by JY through narrative). AZ does give a boost to one's qing gong (like the running and flying around), but doesn't make her attacks automatically speed up. Not to mention half the Jade Maiden is QZ martial arts, which should have no basis in speed at all

[PJ]

YG prior to reaching Greats status can run around as fast as XLN due to his AZ training. Just think of YG and then imagine GJ

It fits YG more since he's not as masculine as GJ, and YG was only a teenager when he showed AT arts.

[PJ]

Yep...
So it's either a case of "JY plot device/inconsistency" or based on demonstrated feats, one should logicall assume L/R would naturally speed up GJ as well

Actually, I have a different memory of XLN's progression to superhuman speed. I thought she was already superhumanly speedy when she used ONE sword (when she first attacked the Quanzhen taoist in chapter 26). Yin Kexi et al already could not see her moves. If so, where did the speed come from?

Let me refresh my memory of the text over lunch.

[Snafu3721]

It fits YG more since he's not as masculine as GJ, and YG was only a teenager when he showed AT arts.

I don't think YG's age would have any impact on his speed. When he was a teen, he relied completely on AT and it's effeminte yet speedy kung fu. So that's a good sample of YG's peak of reliance on speed. Which should be equal or only slightly inferior to XLN.

And I believe GJ was faster than YG at that time, hence easier to paint a picture of GJ's speed

[PJ]

I don't think YG's age would have any impact on his speed. When he was a teen, he relied completely on AT and it's effeminte yet speedy kung fu. So that's a good sample of YG's peak of reliance on speed. Which should be equal or only slightly inferior to XLN.

And I believe GJ was faster than YG at that time, hence easier to paint a picture of GJ's speed

What I meant was that it was less weird to see a teenage YG using lightness kung fu from an all-female sect, than to see a full grown masculine male adult doing that.

[PJ]

Actually, I have a different memory of XLN's progression to superhuman speed. I thought she was already superhumanly speedy when she used ONE sword (when she first attacked the Quanzhen taoist in chapter 26). Yin Kexi et al already could not see her moves. If so, where did the speed come from?

Let me refresh my memory of the text over lunch.

OK, I have just reread the part where XLN demonstrated her superhuman speed. NOWHERE do I see an explanation of how she got this speed! It says that L/R doubled her speed, but it makes no sense b/c she showed that she was just as fast using ONE sword as two swords as 4 swords. The only difference using multiple swords was they were more dangerous, but as far as the speed, it was the same. So how can L/R increase the speed of using ONE sword with ONE arm?