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絕世英雄,絕世情。SPOILERS《大唐雙龍傳》Daai6tong4 Soeng1lung4 Zyun6
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Thread: 絕世英雄,絕世情。SPOILERS《大唐雙龍傳》Daai6tong4 Soeng1lung4 Zyun6

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    Default 絕世英雄,絕世情。SPOILERS《大唐雙龍傳》Daai6tong4 Soeng1lung4 Zyun6

    So, after repeated requests for me to start this, here it is, a Thread to understand content that are considered as Spoilers.


    Wanting to know certain outcomes, I've studied ahead, investigating the original text.


    For example, next time I'll recount my deciphering of (from Book 51, Chapter 3) :

    • 事實上打從開始石青璇從沒掩飾自已對徐子陵的好感和情意。





    Yes, you're welcomed here to translate any bits of 大唐雙龍傳
    Last edited by 徐中銳; 04-06-18 at 08:30 PM.
    I know more than I can express in words, and the little I can express would not have been expressed, had I not known more. 弗拉基米爾弗拉基米羅維奇納博科夫

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    The Chinese sentence I previously quoted was about 石青璇 and 徐子陵。And, personally, I believe English readers can learn to recognise a person's name after initial introduction alongside its pinyin. Thus, Sh Qīng-Xan and X Zǐ-Lng, respectively.


    The primary reason why I prefer the accented hyphenated form, surname first, Sh Qīng-Xan is because using Shi Qingxuan is lazy and poorreaders who don't know Mandarin will at least sight that it's different no relation to Shī Fēi-Xūan (師妃暄).


    Secondly, the practice of joining together forming "Feixuan" serves but to empathise, for the outside world, the togetherness of the 2 words (but strips most of each word's individual meaning).


    I recommend cojak.org as an online dictionary.




    Because I studied Vladimir Nabokov at University, I'm influenced by his (1964) model in translating Eugene Onegin : originally consisting of 4 Volumes (1 of the translated text, 3 of commentary). Incidentally, Princeton University Press re-published it (1991) in 2 Volumes (Text Volume is 368 pages, Commentary Volume is 1056 pages).


    Well, my ideal will be in understanding details.
    Last edited by 徐中銳; 04-06-18 at 08:15 PM.
    I know more than I can express in words, and the little I can express would not have been expressed, had I not known more. 弗拉基米爾弗拉基米羅維奇納博科夫

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    At the heart of it Book 63, Chapter 11 :

    • 娘!我徐子陵在有生之年全心全意愛護青璇,我和青璇將是這世上最幸福的一對。能得青璇垂青,委 身下嫁,是上 天賜我徐子陵最大的恩寵。



    The above were 徐子陵's marriage vows, spoken in front of (B Xu-Xīn) 碧秀心's memorial tablet. My preliminary approximation :

    • Mother ! IX Zǐ-Lngfrom now on wholeheartedly love and cherish Qīng-Xan, me and Qīng-Xan are this world's most blessed couple. Obtaining Qīng-Xan's favour, her consent to marry, it is heaven bestowing meX Zǐ-Lngits greatest grace.



    Thus, readers have interpreted 徐子陵's progress throughout 大唐雙龍傳 as a journey towards happiness with 石青璇




    And back to the Chinese sentence I had quoted in my first Post, I approximate it as :

    • In fact, right from the beginning, Sh Qīng-Xan never hid from X Zǐ-Lng her feelings of goodwill and affection.





    In retrospect, that's the essence around which (Hang Y) 黃易 designed those two's characterisation and ultimate fate.
    Last edited by 徐中銳; 04-06-18 at 08:33 PM.
    I know more than I can express in words, and the little I can express would not have been expressed, had I not known more. 弗拉基米爾弗拉基米羅維奇納博科夫

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    I was asked a question


    Well, I'm actually perfectly content not adding any more to this Thread. What I want most to say, I've already saidreaders now know the destination, plus my approach.




    But, okay, to understand (Ku Zhng) 寇仲, he revealed his innermost drive to 石青璇 in Book 63, Chapter 13 :

    • 「回想起今天之前那些日子,我的感覺像置身於一群兇猛的惡獸群中間,它們會把任何靠近的生物撕 碎,你不但要 比它們狠,還得掌握它們的習性、手段,在不同距離應付它們的方法,更重要的是清楚自己的位置, 定下遠大的目 標。唉!坦白說,有時確是辛苦艱難得要命,幸好現在一切成為過去,以後可陪嫂子到兩河的源頭欣 賞你吹奏的仙 曲。」



    Someone else can translate it, my interest is in what 石青璇 says.
    Last edited by 徐中銳; 04-06-18 at 08:47 PM.
    I know more than I can express in words, and the little I can express would not have been expressed, had I not known more. 弗拉基米爾弗拉基米羅維奇納博科夫

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    What kind of a mindset drives a person to translate a wuxia novel completely ?


    For 大唐雙龍傳, I do mostly care only for a specific aspectnamely what concerns 石青璇. In short, neither of the main male protagonists, 徐子陵 nor 寇仲, prompts me to investigate all details of their development. As to my fuller reasoning, that'll be another time.




    Well, this quoted reference for anyone who'd like to translate Ku Zhng's marriage proposal in Book 57, Chapter 7 :
      宋玉致一身勁裝,秀髮在頂上攏起來結成雙髻,下穿長馬靴綁腿,背掛寶劍,顯是剛從遠地趕回來,甫下馬立 即來 見寇仲。
      看到她倚桌靜坐,一臉風塵的樣兒,寇仲憐意大生,忘掉靜靜避退的宋魯,至乎忘掉此地之外的 任何人與事, 在她秀眉輕蹙帶點冷漠神色的美眸注視下,坐往桌子另一邊。
      兩人目光糾纏。
      寇仲心中條地翻起千重巨浪,想起以前種種,不論兩人生死對決,又成千軍萬馬對決沙場;什麼 個人名位權力 榮辱,至乎一統天下成不朽的霸業,說到底仍是「心的感受」,不會多一分,不會減一毫,問題在是 否滿足。
      而此刻他的心只盈滿對眼前受盡自己折磨創傷的玉人,其他一切不關重要。
      宋玉致淡淡道:「三叔不肯說你為何要到嶺南來,定要由我親自問你,際此風雲四起的時刻,少 帥仍有暇分身 嗎?」
      寇仲一顆心「卜卜卜」的跳躍著,體內熱血沸騰,若能令眼前美女幸福快樂,生命尚有何求。在 這一刻,他衷 心地感激徐子陵,若非得他當頭棒喝,他寇仲會把中土弄得天翻地覆,分崩離析。現在既目標明確的 將會與李世民 以同一步伐達致天下和平統一,更可挽回宋玉致對他的愛,那可是他一直渴望得到生命最珍貴的東西 。
      宋玉致秀眉鎖得更深,有些兒不耐煩的輕輕道:「少帥變成啞吧嗎?」
      寇仲強壓下撲過去把她緊擁入懷,感受她香軀顫震的衝動,咽喉乾涸沙啞著聲音道:「致致不肯 來見我,我只 好到嶺南來。」
      宋玉致現出責怪的動人神色,嗔道:「少帥似不知身負重任,怎可隨便丟下正事,不怕爹怪你嗎 ?」
      寇仲深吸一口氣,道:「我今趟到嶺南來,是正式向致致求婚,因為前定的婚約已然作廢,如今 我寇仲再沒有 機會成為天下之主,只是一個平民,致致肯否委身下嫁,全在致致願否點頭。」
      宋玉致俏臉倏地轉白,嬌軀劇顫,道:「你在說什麼?不要發瘋!爹」
      寇仲正心誠意的道:「在我的生命裡,從沒有一刻我比現在更清楚自己在幹什麼,更清楚我渴想 得到的東西, 那就是和致致共渡只羨鴛鴦不羨仙的寫意美滿生活。我立誓今後放下一切爭逐霸業的行動,只盡心全 力令致致得到 最大的幸福和快樂,執子之手,與子偕老。今天我就像個迷途知返的浪子,直至不久前,始曉得家鄉 在何方何地。 從沒有一刻,我更瞭解致致不願嶺南被捲進天下紛亂的大漩渦的想法,因為我正身在其中,深切體會 到未來種種令 人懼怕的可能性。」
      宋玉致雙目射出不能置信的神色,咬著下唇,好半晌後垂下螓首,低聲道:「不要胡鬧,少帥以 為現在仍可抽 身而退?」
      寇仲道:「為了致致,我可以做任何事。在這艘戰船上,除我外尚有子陵和另一個致致怎都猜想 不到的人。」
      宋玉致愕然朝他瞧來,掩不住訝色,瞪著他道:「你竟是認真的!」
      寇仲長身而起,移到她身旁,單膝跪下,左手按胸,右手握上扶手,凝望宋玉致道:「事關我們 的終生幸福, 我怎敢胡鬧。那個你猜不到的人將會是未來統一天下的真主,我和子陵會用盡一切努力辦法助他登上 帝位,因為我 們深信他是當皇帝的最佳人選。」
      宋玉致口唇輕顫的問道:「他是誰?」
      寇仲一字一字的緩緩道:「李世民!」
      宋玉致嬌軀劇震,道:「爹怎肯答應?」
      寇仲沉聲道:「我們得到他老人家全力支持。」
      宋玉致嬌軀再顫,雙目湧出熱淚,探出抖顫的手,撫上寇仲的臉龐,嗚咽道:「寇仲!啊!寇仲 !你」
      寇仲珍而重之的以雙手捧起她香軟的玉手,嘴唇輕柔地親吻她掌心,魂為之銷的道:「我的老天 爺,原來能令 致致感動至忘掉我以往所有過失是這末動人的一回事,待長安事了後,我就回來和致致洞房花燭,哈 !噢!」
      宋玉致猶掛喜淚的俏臉現出紅暈,一臉嬌嗔的神態有那麼引人就那麼引人,垂下螓首,啐道:「 我答應嫁給你 了嗎?」寇仲得而復失,本是一臉失望的瞧著被宋玉致收回去的玉手,旋又嬉皮笑臉道:「你宋二小 姐若不嫁我, 試問誰夠膽子娶你?因那要過得我寇仲手上的井中月和少帥軍才成。且未來的皇帝又是和我寇仲肝膽 相照,恩怨交 纏的兄弟,你不嫁我嫁誰?相信我,我們會是天下間最好的一對。」
      宋玉致白他一眼道:「看你哩!仍是那副德性,大言不慚。」
      寇仲感到身上每個毛孔不約而同的一起歡呼,他終於得到宋玉致。
      他對此曾陷於絕對的失望,深受有心無力的感覺苦苦折磨,現在本似沒有可能的事終於發生,宋 玉致從未試過 以這種神態和他調笑。
      啞然失笑道:「這正是小子獨到之處,曉得二小姐你正為人人對你一本正經的打躬作揖悶得發慌 ,所以小子投 你所好,否則如何能贏得你的芳心呢?唉!我要走哩!讓我喚子陵和秦王過來與你打個招呼如何?我 可否把你介紹 為本人的未婚嬌妻?」
      宋玉致倏地從椅內飄起,落往出口處,盈盈別轉嬌軀,淚漬猶是未干的俏臉現出又喜又羞,又沒 好氣的苦惱而 喜悅神情,柔聲道:「致致什麼人都不想見,好好的活著回來見我,勿要逞強,一切以大局為重。知 道嗎?寇少帥 !」
      說罷一陣香風般去了。
    Last edited by 徐中銳; 04-06-18 at 08:54 PM.
    I know more than I can express in words, and the little I can express would not have been expressed, had I not known more. 弗拉基米爾弗拉基米羅維奇納博科夫

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    Why don't I try translating more ?


    For example, a wuxia equivalent when shipment of 100 Years of Olympic Films: 19122012 arrives, it'll be 6,253 minutes of my leisure time :



    I called it an equivalent because of how I'm inspired by that feeling
    Last edited by 徐中銳; 04-06-18 at 08:58 PM.
    I know more than I can express in words, and the little I can express would not have been expressed, had I not known more. 弗拉基米爾弗拉基米羅維奇納博科夫

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    Visually, television and film seldom satisfactorily portray wuxia ? I mean, does your favourite adaptation withstand the-test-of-time ?


    Myself, I became interested because of TVB's 1983 射鵰英雄傳 production. But I'm unlikely to watch it again because


    Anyhow, I've just seen the this new upload from this year's Prix de Lausanne. She led me to think of 婠婠陰癸派 :



    Do her movements translate (something) ?
    Last edited by 徐中銳; 04-06-18 at 09:02 PM.
    I know more than I can express in words, and the little I can express would not have been expressed, had I not known more. 弗拉基米爾弗拉基米羅維奇納博科夫

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    「思念是一種折磨」
    Longing is a form of torment is how I've approximated 石青璇's comment from Book 61, Chapter 7.


    Indeed, I could've chosen other English wordsand I might in the future if another approximation better fits my standpoint.


    Since it's brief enough, I'll show you how I had settled :
    思念 (notice the 2 underlying hearts i.e. 心) into what resonates with the title of Leonard Cohen's Book of Longing.
    折磨 is actually rather rich, the 2 characters can literally mean breaking-grinding (say, let's imagine a perpetual disintegration of a person's psyche).




    Incidentally, if you have Netflix and enjoy anime (while not minding reading subtitles), I recommend trying 5 Centimeters Per Second netflix.com/watch/70093699 by Makoto Shinkaiwho recently directed the acclaimed Your Name.


    Personally, I prefer 秒速5センチメートル over 君の名は
    Last edited by 徐中銳; 04-06-18 at 09:13 PM.
    I know more than I can express in words, and the little I can express would not have been expressed, had I not known more. 弗拉基米爾弗拉基米羅維奇納博科夫

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    Just play the game of the chain in a block, with 0.1 etheric coin won three COINS, and so thousands of piece of it, this is a very good game, so I recommend this game, everybody can come to play, this game is that there is no way to cheat, all data are in the open, so we do not have to be afraid of being cheated!!
    Love can go to understand to see!!
    http://108usd.com/#/

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    So, in Book 25, Chapter 1, the last words 石青漩 said before her next speaking appearance (Book 51, Chapter 3) was :

    • 「眾生之苦,皆因有情;情海無崖,苦海亦無邊。子陵兄以為然否?」

    My current approximation is :

    • Misery of sentient life, all due to having feelings ; feelings pool infinitely, misery too pool limitlessly. Zǐ-Lng elder-brother thus think it true, false ?





    Her absence during 26 Books is a long time ? Its original print run being a Book released per month, is 26 months tolerable (especially for 徐子陵) ?


    Personally, because it's now all published (and my *attitude of time), I was happy searching ahead, studying to know


    And if you study the Chinese words, I'm sure you'll be shocked by the richness of meaning. Why, for translating the above, would I not use the word ocean directly for ?Or, indeed, 情是何物?




    * Happiness may well consist primarily of an attitude toward time. Robert Grudin
    Last edited by 徐中銳; 04-06-18 at 09:27 PM.
    I know more than I can express in words, and the little I can express would not have been expressed, had I not known more. 弗拉基米爾弗拉基米羅維奇納博科夫

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    Quote Originally Posted by 徐中銳 View Post
    [FONT=arial]

    • 「眾生之苦,皆因有情;情海無崖,苦海亦無邊。子陵兄以為然否?」

    My current approximation is :

    • Misery of sentient life, all due to having feelings ; feelings pool infinitely, misery too pool limitlessly. Zǐ-Lng elder-brother thus think it true, false ?



    You've arrogated the position of chief forum critic of DTXL translation, and have not been shy to level comment such as "hatchet job" at other efforts. So, given that since you dish it out you ought to be able to take it, my opinion is that your effort - earnestly though it may try to convey your sense of the meaning of every character - reads unbearably clunkily in the English language. If you're attempting to produce something that reads fluently in English (which in all fairness you may not be), it's worth considering whether wuxia's essential style more resembles the complexity and linguistic word games of the Nabokov works you've said you like, or something faster-paced and intended for more popular consumption, such as Dumas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patudo View Post
    You've arrogated the position of chief forum critic of DTXL translation

    Simply, for now, I reproduce for you his blessing, when I sought it, privately, on 09-25-15 :
    Quote Originally Posted by foxs
    Go ahead. As long as you are clear that it is SPOILER, so that those who don't want to will not have to read it, albeit unintentionally.


    Quote Originally Posted by 徐中銳
    As you'll read from my public Post yesterday, I've searched and read the love story concerning a particular heroine.


    Can I please have your blessing for a Thread whereby I translate some of her scenes and readers who don't mind spoilers can join to discuss...


    Thing is, she won't personally enter into the plot line until Book 20, and eventual resolution, near end of Book 63 !


    Remember Su Ying of Legendary Siblings ? Similarly, too far to wait, heartache
    I know more than I can express in words, and the little I can express would not have been expressed, had I not known more. 弗拉基米爾弗拉基米羅維奇納博科夫

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    So, I've not rushed this reply, it's been 24 hours.


    Let's put your quoting of "hatchet job" into context, it was in my replying to 9Dragons :
    Quote Originally Posted by 徐中銳 View Post
    Right, akolaw's corrections will check the hatchet job. Does your alphabet soup spell immortal print ?


    Quote Originally Posted by 9Dragons View Post
    Hopefully we can bury the hatchet and move on. Came for soup and not champagne nor vinegar.

    Vinegar's on you, champ.

    Note his insincerityjab, after advocating peace, of various liquids.


    I saw it as a challenge and responded using his imagery. Thus, "the hatchet job" was actually a self-deprecating acknowledgement, after double-checking its definitions, that I too am indeed wielding a hatchet of sorts. But "akolaw's corrections will check" my need to criticise, as well as check foxs' hatcheting of 黃易's true intent.


    And I had written privately to you, Patudo, on 04-05-18 :
    Quote Originally Posted by 徐中銳
    Give akolaw some support and encouragement ? Because I'm not able to


    It's good if foxs' translation becomes more accurate.


    Myself, I'm happy knowing Sh Qīng-Xan's storyline. And there are promises (to real life friends) I should devote more time fulfilling.

    So, when here at SPCNET, I'd rather focus energies towards translating a line or two and adding into my own thread.


    Best wishes

    Keeping it short, I'll discuss why I value accuracy next time.


    Quote Originally Posted by Patudo View Post
    "hatchet job"
    Last edited by 徐中銳; 04-13-18 at 03:22 PM.
    I know more than I can express in words, and the little I can express would not have been expressed, had I not known more. 弗拉基米爾弗拉基米羅維奇納博科夫

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    Members with long memories will remember the beginning of my distrustquerying foxs' translation to a 石青漩 adjective. Well, bottom line, I want to know exactly what she said and meant.


    To your tabling of how I approximated「眾生之苦,皆因有情;情海無崖,苦海亦無邊。子陵兄以為然否?This was how he translate it :
    Quote Originally Posted by foxs View Post
    All living things suffer simply because of love; there is no cliff on the ocean of passion, the sea of bitterness knows no bound. Has Ziling Xiong thought about it?

    Compared to my approximation :
    Quote Originally Posted by 徐中銳 View Post
    • Misery of sentient life, all due to having feelings ; feelings pool infinitely, misery too pool limitlessly. Zǐ-Lng elder-brother thus think it true, false ?

    Well, recalling you :
    Quote Originally Posted by Patudo View Post
    I'm not really connecting with either Qingxuan or Feixuan as characters. I feel they come across a bit too contemporary, even allowing for literary license. I'm certainly enjoying the story a great deal though.

    All living things suffer simply because of love" makes 石青漩 out somewhat as wishy-washy, an emo Bovary ?


    Incidentally, Nabokov, I primarily chose the more precise Misery of sentient life, all due to having feelings because of his comment :
    Time without consciousnesslower animal world ;
    time with consciousnessman ;
    consciousness without timesome still higher state.


    Thus, the distinction between all living things versus sentient ones, suffering simply because of love against misery due to having feelings.


    Mark also, how I accurately echoed the original text's ,and to misery, feelings, and pool, respectively. Whereas foxs cuts them up to suffering then bitterness, love then passion, ocean then sea.


    And no, I wasn't translating as literal as Nabokov would. I did consider what 黃易 intended her to mean and


    I'll explain more, another time.


    Quote Originally Posted by Patudo View Post
    So, given that since you dish it out you ought to be able to take it, my opinion is that your effort - earnestly though it may try to convey your sense of the meaning of every character - reads unbearably clunkily in the English language. If you're attempting to produce something that reads fluently in English (which in all fairness you may not be), it's worth considering whether wuxia's essential style more resembles the complexity and linguistic word games of the Nabokov works you've said you like, or something faster-paced and intended for more popular consumption, such as Dumas.
    Last edited by 徐中銳; 04-12-18 at 11:20 PM.
    I know more than I can express in words, and the little I can express would not have been expressed, had I not known more. 弗拉基米爾弗拉基米羅維奇納博科夫

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    I thank you for your translating efforts, as I believe all translators should be thanked. I would prefer to read entire sections rather than a couple of sentences here and there - and indeed think that given the extreme length of the story, would-be critics should attempt translating at least several pages to get a better perspective of the task foxs is undertaking - but it's your prerogative to translate as much or as little as you wish. Your request for foxs' "blessing" to start a new thread with translations from DTXL, incidentally, was hardly required (other than as a means of attention-seeking). On a public forum there is nothing stopping you from starting up your own DTXL thread, or, indeed, voicing your criticism of other translators' efforts, on their translation thread, in the most churlish manner. But don't be surprised if other readers take exception to your doing the latter.

    Regarding the specific phrase you've highlighted, frankly I get the same sense of feeling from both versions - Qingxuan comes across just as "emo" in both. I'll note briefly that my perception of Feixuan and Qingxuan coming across somewhat contemporary is taken from the entirety of what has been translated of their appearances so far. Jinyong's female characters are closer to my own individual perceptions of how persons of that era might speak and act (I say that in the full knowledge that those who have actually studied that period of Chinese history would certainly consider JY's female characters to act much too "modern").

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    Your proof of discernment is atrocious.


    Quote Originally Posted by Patudo View Post
    I thank you for your translating efforts, as I believe all translators should be thanked. I would prefer to read entire sections rather than a couple of sentences here and there - and indeed think that given the extreme length of the story, would-be critics should attempt translating at least several pages to get a better perspective of the task foxs is undertaking - but it's your prerogative to translate as much or as little as you wish. Your request for foxs' "blessing" to start a new thread with translations from DTXL, incidentally, was hardly required (other than as a means of attention-seeking). On a public forum there is nothing stopping you from starting up your own DTXL thread, or, indeed, voicing your criticism of other translators' efforts, on their translation thread, in the most churlish manner. But don't be surprised if other readers take exception to your doing the latter.

    Regarding the specific phrase you've highlighted, frankly I get the same sense of feeling from both versions - Qingxuan comes across just as "emo" in both. I'll note briefly that my perception of Feixuan and Qingxuan coming across somewhat contemporary is taken from the entirety of what has been translated of their appearances so far. Jinyong's female characters are closer to my own individual perceptions of how persons of that era might speak and act (I say that in the full knowledge that those who have actually studied that period of Chinese history would certainly consider JY's female characters to act much too "modern").

    That's "attention-seeking" by private messaging ? And "public forum" is for exactly what ?


    Some readers may remember I once had the following quote as a signature :
    You are responsible for the predictable consequences of your own actions, you're not responsible for the predictable consequences of somebody else's actions.


    Since you've broken the peace, I'll soon enough detail what may well be exceptional surprises.


    To assuage your foreboding, perhaps someone will, during the wait, describe the context around using 苦海 within :
    Last edited by 徐中銳; 04-26-18 at 03:16 PM.
    I know more than I can express in words, and the little I can express would not have been expressed, had I not known more. 弗拉基米爾弗拉基米羅維奇納博科夫

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