Is Hong Lung 18 Palms *especially* well-suited for fighting 9 Yum White Bone Claws?

[Ken Cheng]

Certain martial arts are the "black stars" of other martial arts: they just particularly stymie another technique. For example, the combination of Sin Tin Gung and 1 Yeung Finger Technique renders Ha Mo Gung ineffective, Ancient Tomb Sect techniques render Cheun Jen Sect martial arts ineffective, and the 9 Yum Jen Ging can counteract Ancient Tomb Sect techniques, etc.

Is Hong Lung 18 Palms depicted as a "black star" for the 9 Yum White Bone Claws? Maybe it's just the fact that Mui Chiu Fung suffered her first defeat in LOCH at Gwok Jing's hands when he used Hong Lung 18 Palms on her, but it seems to me that Hong Lung 18 Palms is 9 Yum White Bone Claws' "black star."

[tape]

Nah, there was nothing especially potent about XL18Z against that.

It does seem like XL18Z is the black star of everybody who isn't Greats level, though.

[Ian Liew]

I think MCF lost not so much because XL18Z was particularly effective in countering 9YBGZ, as because she was blind and GJ/HR exploited the advantage to the full. XL18Z could thrash almost any non-great martial art in the series, but that doesn't make it a particular black star in terms of technique. Something like the Golden Sun Sabre vs the Snow Mountain Swordplay in Xiakexing would be a great example of black star, though, although iirc there was also an option to combine both skills together to really thrash your opponent.

[kyss of the sword]

the idea of a black star skill is the skills style counters the style of the other skill specifically. however HL18Z is a skill the uses simple moves with ingenious inner power usage to defeat the opponent. it relys on force to overcome style. not really a blackstar. it however is superior to 9yin bone claws so not really a good comparison. a blackstar should be of equal level when compared against a third style but has an point of taking advantage of the relevent skill's weakness. having the part of covering the skills weakness when used side by side seems to be another condition.

[kidd]

Nah, there was nothing especially potent about XL18Z against that.

It does seem like XL18Z is the black star of everybody who isn't Greats level, though.

Haha, that is so true.

[Ken Cheng]

So...if we have two fighters who have identical talents, experience, and inner power level, but one has ONLY Hong Lung 18 Palms and the other has ONLY 9 Yum White Bone Claws as external fighting skills, to which fighter would you grant the advantage in one-on-one fair combat against each other?

[ToastedRossi]

So...if we have two fighters who have identical talents, experience, and inner power level, but one has ONLY Hong Lung 18 Palms and the other has ONLY 9 Yum White Bone Claws as external fighting skills, to which fighter would you grant the advantage in one-on-one fair combat against each other?

I'd put my money on the 9-Yin Claws user. Song Qingshu and Zhou Zhiruo used it to overcome people much more skilled than they were. The moves in 9-Yin are extremely clever and different enough from most martial arts forms that people unfamiliar with it will be at an immediate disadvantage. If the Dragon Palms user was familiar with 9-Yin Claws, then he'd probably get the upper hand.

[Athena]

There were three versions of this set of claw techniques.

The first one was probably the most famous, the Nine Yin White Bone Claws. These claw techniques were used by the enemies of Huang Shang and Huang Shang's younger brother was killed by a practitioner of this skill. Huang Shang recorded this type of martial arts, because he wanted to understand and to find a way to break it (to create a 'black star' arts). Nine Yin White Bone Claws were an external technique and did not require internal energy.

Huang Shang as a response to Nine Yin White Bone Claws created '摧堅神抓' (Indestructible Claws). It was based on the original version but with Taoist philosophies and theories as main influences. These techniques required the practitioner to have superior internal energy. Unlike the Nine Yin White Bone Claws, which were evil martial arts, the Indestructible Claws were orthodox Taoist.

The final version was the version which Zhou Zhiruo and Song Qingshu learnt. This version was a revamp of the original and a faster and improved shortcut. This version could be called Nine Yin White Bone Claws 2.0.

The yellow-dressed young girl probably used the Indestructible Claws against Nine Yin White Bone Claws 2.0 and completely dominated Zhou Zhiruo.

To respond to Ken's question, I think it also depends on which version of these claw techniques the practitioner studied.

[Ken Cheng]

There were three versions of this set of claw techniques.

The first one was probably the most famous, the Nine Yin White Bone Claws. These claw techniques were used by the enemies of Huang Shang and Huang Shang's younger brother was killed by a practitioner of this skill. Huang Shang recorded this type of martial arts, because he wanted to understand and to find a way to break it (to create a 'black star' arts). Nine Yin White Bone Claws were an external technique and did not require internal energy.

Huang Shang as a response to Nine Yin White Bone Claws created '摧堅神抓' (Indestructible Claws). It was based on the original version but with Taoist philosophies and theories as main influences. These techniques required the practitioner to have superior internal energy. Unlike the Nine Yin White Bone Claws, which were evil martial arts, the Indestructible Claws were orthodox Taoist.

The final version was the version which Zhou Zhiruo and Song Qingshu learnt. This version was a revamp of the original and a faster and improved shortcut. This version could be called Nine Yin White Bone Claws 2.0.

The yellow-dressed young girl probably used the Indestructible Claws against Nine Yin White Bone Claws 2.0 and completely dominated Zhou Zhiruo.

To respond to Ken's question, I think it also depends on which version of these claw techniques the practitioner studied.

Good to hear from you as always, Lady Athena.

In your opinion, would the version practiced by Chan Yeun Fung, Mui Chiu Fung, and Yeung Hong count as a "fourth" version? From what I understand, the Black Wind Couple never quite did the 9 Yum White Bone Claws correctly, and might have been quite a different creature from the original, Wong Seung's 9 Yum Divine Claws, and the 2.0 version in HSDS.

[Athena]

Good to hear from you as always, Lady Athena.

In your opinion, would the version practiced by Chan Yeun Fung, Mui Chiu Fung, and Yeung Hong count as a "fourth" version? From what I understand, the Black Wind Couple never quite did the 9 Yum White Bone Claws correctly, and might have been quite a different creature from the original, Wong Seung's 9 Yum Divine Claws, and the 2.0 version in HSDS.

Hi Ken and thanks for the nice words! I think Chen Xuanfeng and Mei Chaofeng followed the instructions very closely. Huang Shang wrote down the methods of this art worked in rather clear details, so the two of them just went by the book. The only thing the novel wasn't clear about was whether adding poison was part of the original instructions. So, there might be a minor difference but I think they stuck to the manual quite closely. Furthermore, it would be rather dangerous to experiment with changing training methods especially that early with their training.

[Ken Cheng]

Hi Ken and thanks for the nice words! I think Chen Xuanfeng and Mei Chaofeng followed the instructions very closely. Huang Shang wrote down the methods of this art worked in rather clear details, so the two of them just went by the book. The only thing the novel wasn't clear about was whether adding poison was part of the original instructions. So, there might be a minor difference but I think they stuck to the manual quite closely. Furthermore, it would be rather dangerous to experiment with changing training methods especially that early with their training.

I do believe that Chan and Mui made the mistake of thinking that to train in the 9 Yum White Bone Claws, they needed to practice on human skulls. Actually, that wasn't the original intent of the claws' creator, but I think the Black Wind Demons misunderstood the instructions or took them too literally.

[Athena]

In the third edition, the original art (version one) was categorized as an evil art. One of the people who who killed Huang Shang's family used these techniques. It was very lethal and vicious. Huang Shang wrote down all the techniques and their practice methods down in the Nine Yin manual. He studied the enemy to defeat the enemy. Some of Huang's enemies did practice unorthodox and downright vicious martial arts (like Nine Yin White Bone Claws, Heart-splitting Palm and the White Serpent Whip).

Huang Shang wanted to counter the Nine Yin White Bone Claws and he created '摧堅神抓' which did have some similarities with Nine Yin White Bone Claws. According to the novel (edition three), it seemed that the Nine Yin White Bone Claws did require practitioners to use live people to practice. However, Huang Shang's 摧堅神抓' did not require this method. Most of the viciousness of Nine Yin White Bone Claws were rectified by Huang Shang.

Chen Xuanfeng and Mei Chaofeng did not study Nine Yin incorrectly; they just chose to study the arts of Huang Shang's enemies because they did not have the first volume of the manual and did understand Taoist martial arts.

The original text in Chinese is 經上說：【此二功不必以內功為根基， 以外功入手亦可。 舍弟妹二人， 喪命於此二功夫， 殺人如草不聞聲， 此二功之謂也。】 師哥和我大喜， 就起始練起來。 練這兩門功夫， 要殺活人來練… (Chapter 10, LOCH).

[hyoyatika]

Wow great to see Althena posting.

Thanks for the info.

So...if we have two fighters who have identical talents, experience, and inner power level, but one has ONLY Hong Lung 18 Palms and the other has ONLY 9 Yum White Bone Claws as external fighting skills, to which fighter would you grant the advantage in one-on-one fair combat against each other?

I think it depends on the fighter. If ZWJ was the one with HL18Z and the other had Claws, I think ZWJ would struggle. He always did against "weird" arts.

GJ on the other hand, would do well since he would just be like, damn, I'm just gonna use HL18Z and see what happens (early stage) though he would eventually mature to become a fine martial artist and be able to handle "weird" arts.

[Doc Kwok]

In the third edition, the original art (version one) was categorized as an evil art. One of the people who who killed Huang Shang's family used these techniques. It was very lethal and vicious. Huang Shang wrote down all the techniques and their practice methods down in the Nine Yin manual. He studied the enemy to defeat the enemy. Some of Huang's enemies did practice unorthodox and downright vicious martial arts (like Nine Yin White Bone Claws, Heart-splitting Palm and the White Serpent Whip).

Huang Shang wanted to counter the Nine Yin White Bone Claws and he created '摧堅神抓' which did have some similarities with Nine Yin White Bone Claws. According to the novel (edition three), it seemed that the Nine Yin White Bone Claws did require practitioners to use live people to practice. However, Huang Shang's 摧堅神抓' did not require this method. Most of the viciousness of Nine Yin White Bone Claws were rectified by Huang Shang.

Chen Xuanfeng and Mei Chaofeng did not study Nine Yin incorrectly; they just chose to study the arts of Huang Shang's enemies because they did not have the first volume of the manual and did understand Taoist martial arts.

The original text in Chinese is 經上說：【此二功不必以內功為根基， 以外功入手亦可。 舍弟妹二人， 喪命於此二功夫， 殺人如草不聞聲， 此二功之謂也。】 師哥和我大喜， 就起始練起來。 練這兩門功夫， 要殺活人來練… (Chapter 10, LOCH).

If you look at Chapter 17, that does not seem to be the case:

...周伯通又照着下卷所記有關的拳路劍術，一招招地説給他聽，所教的只以正路武功為限，不教“九陰白骨爪 ”、“摧心掌”、“白蟒鞭”之類陰毒功夫。只是自己先行走在一旁，看過了真經記住再傳，以防郭靖 起疑。

ZBT was teaching GJ the arts from the manual, but limiting it to the more righteous arts, avoiding cruel arts like 9-yin white-bone claw. Fine, but then he started teaching the 摧堅神抓 (hard-rendering divine claw?) and GJ started getting suspicious, saying that it looked like MCF's martial arts, at which ZBT thought:

周伯通聞言一驚，心想：“是了，梅超風見不到真經上卷，不知練功正法，下卷文中説道‘五指發勁，無堅不破， 摧敵首腦，如穿腐土。”她不知經中所云‘摧敵首腦’是攻敵要害、擊敵首領之意，還道是以五指去插入敵人的頭 蓋，又以為練功時也須如此。自己又杜撰了個可怕的名稱，叫什麼“九陰白骨爪”。這《九陰真經》源自道家法天 自然之旨，旨在驅魔辟邪、葆生養命，先明‘摧堅神抓’要旨，是為了熟知其破解之法，豈能當真如此習練？那婆 娘委實糊塗得緊。郭靖兄弟既已起疑，我不可再教他練這門功夫。

From this passage, we can determine that:

1. Since MCF did not read the first volume, she did not know that 'shattering the enemy's head' meant 'go for the vital areas' and took it literally, and was not supposed to be practised like that anyway - hence she was indeed practising incorrectly.
2. '9-yin white-bone claw' was a scary name made up by MCF herself - there is no separately-named art in the manual (obvious really, given the '9-yin' part).
3. The divine claw is among the arts that were recorded in order to be countered, so HS was not the creator (why make up a new art and then counter it yourself?).

There is an inconsistency as to why ZBT decided to teach the claw given his prior decision to avoid the 'evil' techniques, but I suppose that can be explained away by him not realising that they were the same thing.

[Athena]

Doc Kwok, thanks for raising that point! So, in your opinion do you think there is a contradiction with Chapter 10? Because now that I put the two chapters next to each other, I am also slightly confused. So, in chapter 17, it sounds like 摧堅神抓 is Nine Yin White Bone Claws? Or am I reading it wrong?

Furthermore, my edition (edition 3) does not have this sentence "自己又杜撰了個可怕的名稱，叫什麼“九陰白骨爪”。I am not doubting you, but it is funny that this confirms what I believe is that sometimes there is a slight change within reprints. Furthermore, that sentence is very important; it really changes the way readers could interpret the origins of the Nine Yin White Bone Claws.

[Ken Cheng]

Looks like Doc and Lady Athena have found a real conundrum.

[Doc Kwok]

Doc Kwok, thanks for raising that point! So, in your opinion do you think there is a contradiction with Chapter 10? Because now that I put the two chapters next to each other, I am also slightly confused. So, in chapter 17, it sounds like 摧堅神抓 is Nine Yin White Bone Claws? Or am I reading it wrong?

I think you can just about rationalise the two chapters by saying that '9-yin white-bone claw' was just MCF's pet name for '摧堅神抓' (even in her thoughts), and the small 9-yin excerpt from Chapter 10 doesn't explicitly name the two arts in question anyway. But it's a stretch.

I think Jinyong meant for 9YWBC to be a genuine 'evil' art, but messed up in chapter 17 by leaving most of the second edition text in place, where 9YWBC=corrupted 摧堅神抓, which was an orthodox 9-yin technique created by HS. I get the impression that JY worked on the changes mechanically, so that wherever some named martial technique from 9 yin was mentioned, he would add the usual 'the technique was included to be countered' bit. This is bad editing - when making sweeping changes, you can't just make local changes without considering the context and the impact to the story as a whole.

By keeping this passage in the third edition, it firmly establishes that the two are essentially the same art, but also putting it in the 'to be countered' category results in several problems:

• ZBT intended to avoid training GJ in 9YWBC, but ended up doing so anyway (maybe he didn't realise they were the same thing, or got carried away?)
• The countered arts weren't meant to be trained (just understood in order to counter them), so why on earth was ZBT training GJ in them?
• Why would the enemy's arts require the foundation from the first 9 yin volume to be practised correctly?

The following sentence also becomes problematic:

“我把上卷經文先教他記熟，通曉了經中所載的根本法門，那時他再見到下卷經文中所載武功，必覺順理成章，再 也不會起疑。”

ZBT thought that the martial arts from the second volume would naturally follow from understanding the 9-yin fundamentals in the first volume. However, given that these were arts external to 9 yin, how would they follow from its principles? I can imagine GJ saying: Big brother, why are you teaching me all these crappy martial arts that have all these weaknesses?

I think it would have been best for JY to delete this paragraph entirely. Otherwise the only way it makes sense is if ZBT completely lost his senses at that point!

Furthermore, my edition (edition 3) does not have this sentence "自己又杜撰了個可怕的名稱，叫什麼“九陰白骨爪”。I am not doubting you, but it is funny that this confirms what I believe is that sometimes there is a slight change within reprints. Furthermore, that sentence is very important; it really changes the way readers could interpret the origins of the Nine Yin White Bone Claws.

I cut-and-pasted that section from an online copy to save on some typing . I have checked my printed copy, and like yours, it is not there (volume 2, page 734, published by 明河社). Which edition do you have?

If you google for that passage, there are numerous hits from various Chinese discussion boards, so it is not just the copy I used (although no-one mentioned discrepencies between editions). I think you are right though - there are variations between prints and/or publishers.

[Athena]

That is a very good breakdown of what went wrong.

I have the same edition, haha.

Speaking of minor changes, I have heard about one in the Book and the Sword and actually saw a difference of ROCH (third edition) of two different publishers.

The alleged difference in the Book and the Sword is the inconsistency with the nickname of the commander of the imperial guards, Bai Zhen. This inconsistency had always been there, but apparently Jin Yong tried to fix it but he failed to spot all of them. In Taiwan's published copy there is 金抓銀鉤 but in the 明河社 it is 金抓鐵鉤 and it is apparently in the same chapter and same paragraph in the story. This is hearsay.

In the third edition of ROCH I have actually spotted an inconsistency. I have copies of both Taiwan's 遠流 and Hong Kong's 明河社. In chapter 25, Zhen Zhibing passed the leadership of Quanzhen to Zhao Zhijing and he referred to Zhao Zhijing's Taoist name. In my 遠流 copy, Zhao's Taoist name was 智機真人, but this would be contradicted in chapter 27 because his Taoist name in that chapter was 清肅真人. However, in 明河社's copy there is no reference to 智機真人. It is only 清肅真人.

[PJ]

Great discussion. Speaking of inconsistencies, has Jin Yong fixed Zhong Wanchou's nickname inconsistency, where he was 马王神 in the early chapters but 见人就刹 in chapter 44 (2nd ed)?

[Doc Kwok]

Great discussion. Speaking of inconsistencies, has Jin Yong fixed Zhong Wanchou's nickname inconsistency, where he was 马王神 in the early chapters but 见人就刹 in chapter 44 (2nd ed)?

It was fixed in favour of the latter alternative (見人就殺).