Kiu Fung vs. Sai Mun Chui Sheut (a serious attempt at a Jin Yong vs. Gu Long fight)

[Ken Cheng]

We've never had much success in staging Jin Yong vs. Gu Long character martial arts comparisons on this forum (mostly owing to the writing styles of the two authors being too different), and I half expect this thread to fail too, but I've selected two well-known and powerful characters (but neither so powerful that the fight would be one-sided either way) from the Jin Yong and Gu Long universes for a showdown.

When I was a kid watching TVB wuxia dramas for the first time, I believed that no other swordsman could match Sai Mun Chui Sheut and no other hand-to-hand fighter could match Kiu Fung. They both defeated most of their opponents with the greatest of ease, and yet each did occasionally encounter an expert who could equal or even surpass them.

Kiu Fung fought a number of swordsmen in DGSD, but never one who had mastery of the sword at a level like Sai Mun Chui Sheut. Likewise, Sai Mun Chui Sheut fought some impressive hand-to-hand fighters (including his buddy Luk Siu Fung), but no one who could project powerful LDA palms like Kiu Fung.

I think this would be a good match.

So...with both fighters at optimum conditions on neutral ground, how would Kiu Fung vs. Sai Mun Chui Sheut go?

I predict a long, brutal fight, and at the end, Kiu Fung will have the tip of Sai Mun's sword stuck in his chest while Sai Mun suffers devastating internal injuries.

[mawguy]

this is a tough one to decide, since their martial "tools" are so different -- can't be a fair fight for either when the opponent doesn't wield the same weapon. siu fung would waste a lot of time just trying to push sai mun's sword away from poking holes into his body. sai mun would waste a lot of time finding a way to get near enough to actually inflict a wound. that's not a fight.

what would be a better match would be siu fung vs chor lau heung. who is the ultimate swordsman in the JY universe?

[Ken Cheng]

this is a tough one to decide, since their martial "tools" are so different -- can't be a fair fight for either when the opponent doesn't wield the same weapon. siu fung would waste a lot of time just trying to push sai mun's sword away from poking holes into his body. sai mun would waste a lot of time finding a way to get near enough to actually inflict a wound. that's not a fight.

what would be a better match would be siu fung vs chor lau heung. who is the ultimate swordsman in the JY universe?

Actually, it's precisely because their martial arts are so different that this would be a very interesting fight. If we have a hand-to-hand fight, then whomever is better simply wins after X number of moves. Similarly, if it's swordsman to swordsman (e.g. Sai Mun Chui Sheut vs. Ling Wu Chung), it would probably be a fairly bland fight.

But because Kiu Fung's unarmed style contrasts so greatly with SMCS's sword technique, I think both would need to get very creative to seize the advantage.

[Banh Mi]

Considering all the flesh wounds XF can endure. Would it be possible for him to take a non lethal thrust to the body. Then use that window of opportunity to disarm or deliver a killing blow? Once you've impaled someone with your sword, it's useless until you pull it out or twist it.

[Ken Cheng]

Considering all the flesh wounds XF can endure. Would it be possible for him to take a non lethal thrust to the body. Then use that window of opportunity to disarm or deliver a killing blow? Once you've impaled someone with your sword, it's useless until you pull it out or twist it.

With ordinary swordsmen, yeah...in fact, I think Kiu Fung does something like that pretty often.

But this is Sai Mun Chui Sheut: if his sword succeeds in penetrating Kiu Fung's flesh, it probably won't stop until it goes through his heart.

One can't compare Sai Mun Chui Sheut to those random swordsmen that Kiu Fung routinely pulverizes.

Likewise, one can't compare Kiu Fung to those random warriors that Sai Mun Chui Sheut routinely skewers.

This is kind of like the irresistible force meeting the immovable object.

[mawguy]

Actually, it's precisely because their martial arts are so different that this would be a very interesting fight. If we have a hand-to-hand fight, then whomever is better simply wins after X number of moves. Similarly, if it's swordsman to swordsman (e.g. Sai Mun Chui Sheut vs. Ling Wu Chung), it would probably be a fairly bland fight.

But because Kiu Fung's unarmed style contrasts so greatly with SMCS's sword technique, I think both would need to get very creative to seize the advantage.

well, in that case, what sort of environment are they fighting in? is there an audience? is ah chu still alive? is sai mun married?

[Ken Cheng]

well, in that case, what sort of environment are they fighting in? is there an audience? is ah chu still alive? is sai mun married?

They're fighting on an open field...nothing to hide behind or around. Good visibility all around. They can focus on each other and not the environment.

In this scenario, Kiu Fung and Sai Mun Chui Sheut have not even met Ah Chu or Sheun Sau Ching, so women are not a distraction.

In other words, both men are free of distraction and are in top fighting condition.

[mawguy]

i'm having a tough time deciding. siu fung is one of the few whose power isn't weakened by anger or hate, unlike most of the opponents sai mun has faced. so, while sai mun has some deadly moves, his cool head won't give him the usual advantage.

there's also the real danger that siu fung's brute strength would be sufficient to not only shatter sai mun's sword, but cause the severe internal injuries you've already alluded to. can sai mun get around it and deal a deadly blow, or will he become incapacitated?

one thing that sai mun does have going for him: extreme self-confidence. and especially given that this is pre-marriage, he really is just a killing machine. siu fung, when not provoked to hot, blind rage, is more compassionate, and that could be a disadvantage against the emotionless sai mun.

so, i can't decide yet.

[Ken Cheng]

i'm having a tough time deciding. siu fung is one of the few whose power isn't weakened by anger or hate, unlike most of the opponents sai mun has faced. so, while sai mun has some deadly moves, his cool head won't give him the usual advantage.

there's also the real danger that siu fung's brute strength would be sufficient to not only shatter sai mun's sword, but cause the severe internal injuries you've already alluded to. can sai mun get around it and deal a deadly blow, or will he become incapacitated?

one thing that sai mun does have going for him: extreme self-confidence. and especially given that this is pre-marriage, he really is just a killing machine. siu fung, when not provoked to hot, blind rage, is more compassionate, and that could be a disadvantage against the emotionless sai mun.

so, i can't decide yet.

Yes. This would be a very interesting fight (I went through a number of candidates before selecting Kiu Fung and SMCS as representatives of their respective universes; I thought their skills would provide a very interesting matchup).

One thing to bear in mind: SMCS's inner power wasn't too shabby. Although I don't see him projecting LDA the way Kiu Fung does, I think his inner power is deep enough that his sword won't be easily broken and he can probably take a glancing blow from Kiu Fung without being instantly incapacitated.

[athlee]

I think pre-marriage XMXS wasn't as good as post divorce (or whatever it was that he went through). When he first came out, he had yet to reach his peak. So I would say XF for the win. Post-whatever XMXS should take the fight though.

[mawguy]

painful as it is to admit, after much deliberation, i have to say that i think siu fung will win the fight. 'course, sai mun may then have to commit suicide or something 'cause he sure can't live with defeat.

got another interesting pair you want to suggest? be nice if you can find one from the LYS world to add to the mix.

[Ken Cheng]

painful as it is to admit, after much deliberation, i have to say that i think siu fung will win the fight. 'course, sai mun may then have to commit suicide or something 'cause he sure can't live with defeat.

got another interesting pair you want to suggest? be nice if you can find one from the LYS world to add to the mix.

Sai Mun Chui Sheut wouldn't commit suicide, but I see him attempting to kill Kiu Fung until Kiu Fung kills him. That's why this promises to be a long fight, and there will almost certainly be a fatality. Kiu Fung can't simply expect SMCS to commit suicide like the Yau Brothers did, however. He will need to kill Sai Mun Chui Sheut himself (which isn't easy even for him and is by no means a sure thing).

[mawguy]

the mass massacre that happened was a culmination of all the frustrations and injustice siu fung felt -- everyone against him. he's normally a merciful fighter, so in a fair fight, he'll aim to win but not kill. he could very well prevent sai mun's suicide attempt and straddle him with a life debt, but i don't think he'll help sai mun do the job.

[Ken Cheng]

the mass massacre that happened was a culmination of all the frustrations and injustice siu fung felt -- everyone against him. he's normally a merciful fighter, so in a fair fight, he'll aim to win but not kill. he could very well prevent sai mun's suicide attempt and straddle him with a life debt, but i don't think he'll help sai mun do the job.

The thing with an extremist such as Sai Mun Chui Sheut is that the only way to stop him from coming at you is to kill him or cripple him. He can't be persuaded to stop through reasoning, threats, etc. One can't be merciful to SMCS because he won't return the mercy.

[mawguy]

The thing with an extremist such as Sai Mun Chui Sheut is that the only way to stop him from coming at you is to kill him or cripple him. He can't be persuaded to stop through reasoning, threats, etc. One can't be merciful to SMCS because he won't return the mercy.

true, but being honourable is also very high on his list, and he takes life debts very seriously. if siu fung is able to win the fight, he's able to stop him from being stupid. therefore, even if he resents siu fung for his mercy, sai mun still knows he is indebted to him, and if siu fung makes him promise to not kill himself, he's bound by that.

sai mun has very few friends, and luk siu fung being one of them, i'm quite sure that there's more behind the scenes than sai mun simply agreeing to help luk with his investigation on some arbitrary quirk about his fugly moustache. not saying that a life debt is necessarily the reason why, but you have to wonder how they could've become friends in the first place.