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Thread: Is Sad Palms >> 18 Dragon Palms?

  1. #21
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chibidaisuke View Post
    GWM was caught off guard, that should also be considered. If YG can destroy another Great level fighter in an instant when he's full sad then man... we could say YG full sad mode ~= Sweeper Monk. Sorry but that wasn't Jin Yong's intention.
    Golden Wheel Monk wasn't even mortally wounded by Yeung Gor's best blow. Not that the monk was in great condition after that, but it took a burning tower to finish him off.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Golden Wheel Monk wasn't even mortally wounded by Yeung Gor's best blow. Not that the monk was in great condition after that, but it took a burning tower to finish him off.
    If YG wanted to take his life afterwards, it would've been extremely easy. GWM was spitting blood and on the ground already, it's just not the way the story was meant to end, especially with Guo Xiang's safety being more important. (I think in the first edition it was actually a mortal blow, since GWM couldn't even move afterwards and would've died eventually) The burning tower finished him, but it was hardly needed.

    Anyway the point of this thread was if Sad Palms minus the sadness requirement is better than 18 Dragon Palms, but I don't think anyone noticed that was my question .

  3. #23
    Senior Member devilz91's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    Anyway the point of this thread was if Sad Palms minus the sadness requirement is better than 18 Dragon Palms, but I don't think anyone noticed that was my question .
    Sad Palms without sadness would just be like any other palm. How can you take away the sadness requirement?

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    If YG wanted to take his life afterwards, it would've been extremely easy.
    The same was true back at the Heroes Conference at Luk Family Manor after Gwok Jing and the Golden Wheel Monk clashed palms. Although the monk looked like he had the advantage because he stood his ground while Gwok Jing leaped back to dissipate the impact, in fact, the monk had sustained a serious enough injury (while Gwok Jing was completely unharmed) and would have *died* if Gwok Jing had followed up with a second palm.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by devilz91 View Post
    Sad Palms without sadness would just be like any other palm. How can you take away the sadness requirement?
    Indeed...Sad Palms without the sadness is...I don't know. That's sort of the conceit behind the whole thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by devilz91 View Post
    Sad Palms without sadness would just be like any other palm. How can you take away the sadness requirement?
    It's just a hypothetical, just like any hypothetical situation that we've discussed that hasn't happened.

    The sadness part is pretty lame imo, and I wonder if it was put in only to create some climatic battle because GWM wouldn't be a threat otherwise.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    The same was true back at the Heroes Conference at Luk Family Manor after Gwok Jing and the Golden Wheel Monk clashed palms. Although the monk looked like he had the advantage because he stood his ground while Gwok Jing leaped back to dissipate the impact, in fact, the monk had sustained a serious enough injury (while Gwok Jing was completely unharmed) and would have *died* if Gwok Jing had followed up with a second palm.
    I don't dispute this point. I am just saying Yang Guo dealt a mortal blow for all intents and purposes in that fight.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    I don't dispute this point. I am just saying Yang Guo dealt a mortal blow for all intents and purposes in that fight.
    It ended the fight, but if the Golden Wheel Monk had chosen to just go home and lick his wounds rather than press the issue, he could have been back for another try within a few weeks.

    I think if any of the other Greats landed a clean shot on him, though, the effect would have been pretty much the same. The Golden Wheel Monk was a Great himself, but he couldn't tank a direct blow from another Great. I don't think any of them can (none of them had that Hui Juk/Janitor Monk level of damage soak).

  9. #29
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    ...which goes to prove again what a doofus the Golden Wheel Monk was when it came to fighting. I don't think any other Great would have left himself open to a direct hit from another Great (OK, it happened to Hung 7 Gung once in LOCH, but that's because Au Yeung Fung used his snakes plus the momentary advantage of a falling, burning ship's mast to get the blow in).

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post

    I think if any of the other Greats landed a clean shot on him, though, the effect would have been pretty much the same. The Golden Wheel Monk was a Great himself, but he couldn't tank a direct blow from another Great. I don't think any of them can (none of them had that Hui Juk/Janitor Monk level of damage soak).
    THREE Greats actually landed a blow on GWM simultaneously. Huang Yaoshi flicked him, Yideng used Yi Yangzhi on him, and ZBT punched him on an acupoint. He didn't fall, and only sat down which greatly impressed all the other Greats.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    THREE Greats actually landed a blow on GWM simultaneously. Huang Yaoshi flicked him, Yideng used Yi Yangzhi on him, and ZBT punched him on an acupoint. He didn't fall, and only sat down which greatly impressed all the other Greats.
    Yeah...and there's always been something wrong with that sequence because we *know* the Golden Wheel Monk wasn't three or more times stronger than a Great. He's succumbed to lesser blows than that.

    I think you'd need to be at least Hui Juk's level to take a Great's blow and remain standing, let alone *three* Greats at the same time.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    It ended the fight, but if the Golden Wheel Monk had chosen to just go home and lick his wounds rather than press the issue, he could have been back for another try within a few weeks.

    .
    I don't know if he had the ability to go home, he was on the floor spitting blood. Now that I think about it, the scene doesn't make too much sense. You would think YG would either immediately finish GWM, or immediately go try to save Guo Xiang. Neither happened though; for some reason YG stood there doing nothing until the injured GWM gathered enough strength to jump up to free Guo Xiang. I guess YG thought it was too dangerous up there and decided it was safer to let her die

    And considering nobody knew that GWM was actually very fond of Guo Xiang, and only knew he was despicable, shouldn't YG kill him as he jumps up to GX, thinking he has some ill intentions to either take her hostage again or take her down with him? Up to that point, he hasn't done one good deed in the book, and in YG's shoes, I probably wouldn't be able to guess that he had noble intentions and wind up wrongly killing him and dooming GX in the process.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Yeah...and there's always been something wrong with that sequence because we *know* the Golden Wheel Monk wasn't three or more times stronger than a Great. He's succumbed to lesser blows than that.

    I think you'd need to be at least Hui Juk's level to take a Great's blow and remain standing, let alone *three* Greats at the same time.
    They hit him on acupoints in nonlethal places, so I could see why he didn't die or spit blood. But him not collapsing immediately IS pretty amazing.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    I don't know if he had the ability to go home, he was on the floor spitting blood. Now that I think about it, the scene doesn't make too much sense. You would think YG would either immediately finish GWM, or immediately go try to save Guo Xiang. Neither happened though; for some reason YG stood there doing nothing until the injured GWM gathered enough strength to jump up to free Guo Xiang. I guess YG thought it was too dangerous up there and decided it was safer to let her die
    It all happened pretty fast, and there was *fire* involved. However great a martial artist's skill is, fire presents a problem (no heat shields). Yeung Gor probably had to think of a way to save Gwok Seung without getting her and himself roasted.

    The Golden Wheel Monk saved everybody the trouble by letting himself get roasted instead.

    And considering nobody knew that GWM was actually very fond of Guo Xiang, and only knew he was despicable, shouldn't YG kill him as he jumps up to GX, thinking he has some ill intentions to either take her hostage again or take her down with him? Up to that point, he hasn't done one good deed in the book, and in YG's shoes, I probably wouldn't be able to guess that he had noble intentions and wind up wrongly killing him and dooming GX in the process.
    Credit Golden Wheel Monk for the final rescue, I guess. Everybody failed to save Gwok Seung except, ironically, the guy who put her into peril in the first place. How's that for irony?

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    I don't know if he had the ability to go home, he was on the floor spitting blood.
    That happens quite a bit in wuxia. It was probably worse than it looked. Hung 7 Gung was probably in similar condition in LOCH after Au Yeung Fung struck him on the yacht. Gwok Jing was probably also in the same condition in LOCH after he was hit by Ha Mo Gung and Yeung Hong's dagger. They survived.

  16. #36
    Senior Member CancerLuna's Avatar
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    happy yang guo using sad palms > golden wheel monk > older greats
    sad yang guo using sad palms => 1 hit surprise win

    i do not believe guo jing would have beaten golden wheel monk in one move, even if it was a surprise

    sad palms >= 18 dragon palms

  17. #37
    Senior Member Snafu3721's Avatar
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    @Tape

    Here is the ROCH excerpt. I don't think it mentions GWM spitting blood or being too injured in ed 1/2 after being hit by YG

    "Fawang was kicked off the platform and was injured but not fatally. He swallowed his pain and rolled away, wanting to get up. Suddenly someone laughed and jumped onto his back. He was pinned to the ground and it seemed like a thousand needles pierced through him. It was Zhou Botong and his Soft Armour was like a porcupine. Fawang was severely injured and he could not move. The tower collapsed and, as Zhou Botong leapt away, a huge beam struck Fawang on his back."

    I think any Great who landed a blow on GWM would've caused a similar lvl of damage. Hence, Sad palms does not demonstrate anything particularly amazing.

    And if we were to take the sadness requirement from sad palms, then it's basically the same as XL18P. Therefore, dragon palm is still better just because it sounds awesome. Going around Jiang Hu, I wouldn't want to be known to be the man with Sad palms. And the names of the stances... so emo... especially if you take away the sadness.

  18. #38
    Senior Member Snafu3721's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CancerLuna
    happy yang guo using sad palms > golden wheel monk > older greats
    sad yang guo using sad palms => 1 hit surprise win

    i do not believe guo jing would have beaten golden wheel monk in one move, even if it was a surprise

    sad palms >= 18 dragon palms
    YG didn't beat GWM in one hit. His initial blow struck GWM on the shoulder which only caused GWM some pain and discomfort. Later, YG kicked GWM which knocked him off a tall burning pillar causing GWM to be stunned. If anything it was the gigantic burning beam that did more damage to GWM in ed 2. In ed 3, GWM spat blood only after exerting himself to the fullest to rescue GX. Otherwise, like Ken mentioned, he could've just ran away.

    I think GJ could've done exactly the same
    Last edited by Snafu3721; 02-05-11 at 03:09 AM.

  19. #39
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    I think we need to dispel a few ongoing myths about the Sad Palms.

    1. Sad Palms isn't like the Incredible Hulk's strength (which increases with anger). It doesn't go into overdrive mode when Yeung Gor gets sadder. When Yeung Gor is sad, Sad Palms is fully functional at 100% power, at which point it's a Greats-level martial art on the order of 1 Yeung Finger Technique, Divine Finger Snap, and Hong Lung 18 Palms.

    2. Sad Palms doesn't work or works only in neutered form when Yeung Gor isn't sad. In neutered form, it's probably not quite a Greats-level martial art at least in terms of power. I think that after Yeung Gor reunited with Little Dragon Girl, he probably had to fall back on Heavy Iron Sword Technique or another martial art because from that point forward, his Sad Palms would be unreliable at best. If he wanted to continue using it, he'd need to reinvent it to not be sadness-dependent. That might not be impossible to do (why not use 9 Yum inner power or other inner power to charge it up?), but we never saw him do it because ROCH ended at that point.

  20. #40
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    So in conclusion, Sad Palms is *not* better than Hong Lung 18 Palms, but if you see them as equal...I can live with that.

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