Is Sad Palms >> 18 Dragon Palms?

[Exodus]

Let's us an real life example: a women seeing her child get stuck under a car and in an instant without thought she is able to life up the car just for a moment to save her child. This should in theory be impossible since she should only be able to life 100% of her capacity +/- the standard deviation. So how did she managed to life 30-40 times her 100% lifting capactiy?

Without sadness the sad palm would still generate +/- 100% of his power since it's all backed from his inner power, however when he is extremly sad or suffient sad enough the sad palm would generate powers that exceed his 100% capacity just for a "moment" that would be enough for him to defeat someone of GWM caliber. Who else could have done the same thing in the end of ROCH?

[chibidaisuke]

Wow, it's been quite a long time since we had a Guo Jing vs Yang Guo thread like this.

[Snafu3721]

Hahahah

To avoid it becoming one...
let's just say XF's dragon palms vs sad palms =P

[Snafu3721]

Let's us an real life example: a women seeing her child get stuck under a car and in an instant without thought she is able to life up the car just for a moment to save her child. This should in theory be impossible since she should only be able to life 100% of her capacity +/- the standard deviation. So how did she managed to life 30-40 times her 100% lifting capactiy?

Without sadness the sad palm would still generate +/- 100% of his power since it's all backed from his inner power, however when he is extremly sad or suffient sad enough the sad palm would generate powers that exceed his 100% capacity just for a "moment" that would be enough for him to defeat someone of GWM caliber. Who else could have done the same thing in the end of ROCH?

Actually the mother's ability to lift the car was innate. It's not that the mother's body couldn't support a car's weight, but while in a state of emergency she was able to efficiently use her body's potential. There are yoga masters and other Martial Arts practitioners who have learned to master their breathing + mental control to over-ride their body's normal tendencies to self-regulate it's strength. Hence, I believe any woman who was well trained in martial arts or self-hypnosis would be able to do the same thing as the distressed mother who lifted the car.

Going back to sad palms and dragon palms--

Dragon palms (or any elite Great's lvl technique) would be the equivalent of the efficient body mastery I mentioned earlier. Looking at LOCH and HSDS, we already see that practitioners of dragon palms are able to overwhelm opponents with higher internal energies. Thus, it means dragon palms is already a super efficient technique allowing its user to fully optimize and use their internal reservoir.

Sad palms on the other hand is an inferior palm technique because it requires sadness as a state of being to activate it's efficiency. Without being sad, the user of sad palms has a way lower efficiency quotient than the dragon palm user. For example, a happy YG with sad palms vs a happy YG with dragon palms would be in a loosing position. Because the YG with dragon palms can tap his internal energy much more efficiently.

[Exodus]

Actually the mother's ability to lift the car was innate. It's not that the mother's body couldn't support a car's weight, but while in a state of emergency she was able to efficiently use her body's potential. There are yoga masters and other Martial Arts practitioners who have learned to master their breathing + mental control to over-ride their body's normal tendencies to self-regulate it's strength. Hence, I believe any woman who was well trained in martial arts or self-hypnosis would be able to do the same thing as the distressed mother who lifted the car.

Going back to sad palms and dragon palms--



Dragon palms (or any elite Great's lvl technique) would be the equivalent of the efficient body mastery I mentioned earlier. Looking at LOCH and HSDS, we already see that practitioners of dragon palms are able to overwhelm opponents with higher internal energies. Thus, it means dragon palms is already a super efficient technique allowing its user to fully optimize and use their internal reservoir.

Sad palms on the other hand is an inferior palm technique because it requires sadness as a state of being to activate it's efficiency. Without being sad, the user of sad palms has a way lower efficiency quotient than the dragon palm user. For example, a happy YG with sad palms vs a happy YG with dragon palms would be in a loosing position. Because the YG with dragon palms can tap his internal energy much more efficiently.

I see what you are saying here but for instance in a lifting competition we are only interested in the person who can lift the most ONE time and not the person who can lift less MANY times. I can agree that for most people on average dragon palm might be more reliable and therefore better, however in a death fight with the user extremely sad sad palm > dragon palm.

It really depends what you define as better and for YG it doesn't matter since his lvl is already so high that he don't need to use sad palm to the highest extent. If he was to fight another great his thought about being seperated with XLN would let him to exceed his power output to overwhelm a great i.e. GWM.

[PJ]

happy yang guo using sad palms > golden wheel monk > older greats

You forget that sad Yang Guo = Huang Yaoshi.

[PJ]

Sad Palms without sadness would just be like any other palm. How can you take away the sadness requirement?

What do you mean? Sad Palms without sadness was >= GWM, as proven in their fight.

[PJ]

I have to say I find it lame that this mundane topic is getting the most replies, when there are (IMO) many other more interesting topics on the first page getting 1-2 replies.

[tape]

@Tape

Here is the ROCH excerpt. I don't think it mentions GWM spitting blood or being too injured in ed 1/2 after being hit by YG

"Fawang was kicked off the platform and was injured but not fatally. He swallowed his pain and rolled away, wanting to get up. Suddenly someone laughed and jumped onto his back. He was pinned to the ground and it seemed like a thousand needles pierced through him. It was Zhou Botong and his Soft Armour was like a porcupine. Fawang was severely injured and he could not move. The tower collapsed and, as Zhou Botong leapt away, a huge beam struck Fawang on his back."

I think any Great who landed a blow on GWM would've caused a similar lvl of damage. Hence, Sad palms does not demonstrate anything particularly amazing.

And if we were to take the sadness requirement from sad palms, then it's basically the same as XL18P. Therefore, dragon palm is still better just because it sounds awesome. Going around Jiang Hu, I wouldn't want to be known to be the man with Sad palms. And the names of the stances... so emo... especially if you take away the sadness.

Right before your passage is this one:

"Yang Guo backed away and retaliated with “In A State Of Disunity”, “Irrational Direction”, “The Settled Cessation” and another move quickly followed these three attacks. It was the “The Meaningless Wanderer”. This stance was a kick, but it was a most elusive attack. Fawang could only vaguely see a leg; it was there, but it was not. He could not avoid this kick and he suffered a heavy blow to his chest. He coughed up blood and fell. Both armies yelled, the Song yelled with joy and the Mongolians called out in surprise."

He fell down and coughed up blood. The other three Greats that strike him all at once were unable to cause him to spit blood and fall, though they struck at acupoints, which should be easier to make him fall but not spit blood.

The other Greats except Guo Jing likely lack the sheer power of Yang Guo and probably wouldn't be able to do as much damage in one hit. They probably make up for it by excelling in other areas, but I think they wouldn't be able to cause the same raw damage (except Guo Jing).

Sad Palms without sadness requirement has more variations and strange techniques, so I think it is slightly better than Dragon Palms because of it. Iron Palms made up for the lack of power by having better variations, so if Sad Palms does indeed generate the same amount of power, I'd have to say it's slightly better. Of course the sad thing makes it a lot worse, but I really wonder if someone could learn it without the sadness, and Yang Guo is just being a drama queen saying you need to be in the right mentality just because he does.

We do have Hong Qigong saying he can't learn Peach Blossom kungfu and Huang Yaoshi can't learn Dragon Palms because of difference in personalities, but I think that is pretty bullcrap and if HYS wanted to learn Dragon Palms, he'd learn them easily if given a chance.

[Snafu3721]

Right before your passage is this one:

"Yang Guo backed away and retaliated with “In A State Of Disunity”, “Irrational Direction”, “The Settled Cessation” and another move quickly followed these three attacks. It was the “The Meaningless Wanderer”. This stance was a kick, but it was a most elusive attack. Fawang could only vaguely see a leg; it was there, but it was not. He could not avoid this kick and he suffered a heavy blow to his chest. He coughed up blood and fell. Both armies yelled, the Song yelled with joy and the Mongolians called out in surprise."

He fell down and coughed up blood. The other three Greats that strike him all at once were unable to cause him to spit blood and fall, though they struck at acupoints, which should be easier to make him fall but not spit blood.

The other Greats except Guo Jing likely lack the sheer power of Yang Guo and probably wouldn't be able to do as much damage in one hit. They probably make up for it by excelling in other areas, but I think they wouldn't be able to cause the same raw damage (except Guo Jing).

I re-read the excerpt and stand corrected. Yes, GWM did cough up blood after being kicked.

But I still don't think it was an amazing strike considering YG hit GWM twice and only made him cough up blood. I believe GWM could've still escaped in all 3 editions if he wanted to. Again, I also believe the other Greats (and definitely GJ) would've beena able to cause the same damage to GWM in 2 strikes.

As to the 2 Greats striking GWM... I agree with you and believe their intention wasn't to kill GWM. There wanted to subdue him (because if they were fighting for life and death, I think the other 3 Greates would've attacked very differently). Hence they just struck at specific accupoints to seal and maim. Although they were quite surprised that the GWM could take the hits quite well.

Sad Palms without sadness requirement has more variations and strange techniques, so I think it is slightly better than Dragon Palms because of it. Iron Palms made up for the lack of power by having better variations, so if Sad Palms does indeed generate the same amount of power, I'd have to say it's slightly better. Of course the sad thing makes it a lot worse, but I really wonder if someone could learn it without the sadness, and Yang Guo is just being a drama queen saying you need to be in the right mentality just because he does..

But since YG's Sad palms can't be executed properly without sadness. So without sadness, it's just an avg palm albeit full of weird strange variations. Much like HYS's Luo Ying palms

If we take away the sadness requirement as I've mentioned... then it's reasonable to assume it's as good as dragon palms. And as I've said, based on personal opinion, if you can choose a palm set... why wouldn't you choose the dragon palms if the power is the same.

[Snafu3721]

What do you mean? Sad Palms without sadness was >= GWM, as proven in their fight.

"Yang Guo was stunned for a moment and then he realized he was feeling lost and hopeless and he unintentionally used the stance “Entangled by the Web of Love”. The heart is the most important factor of this style - it commands the arm and the arm commands the palm. That day, in the “Hundred Flowers Valley”, Zhou Botong did not feel sadness and melancholy and therefore he could not grasp the essence behind this style. When Yang Guo was reunited with Xiao Longnu, this style LOST ITS ESSENCE. When Yang Guo faced death and parting with Xiao Longnu the sorrow and melancholy suddenly surged forth in his heart and immediately boosted the power of the “Melancholic Sad Palms”. "

Without sadness, the palm can't be executed (properly) ... so Sad Palms w/o sadness is not >= GWM

[tape]

Without sadness, the palm can't be executed (properly) ... so Sad Palms w/o sadness is not >= GWM

I think what PJ meant is that YG was winning the fight and would have defeated GWM even without Sad Palms, and it was only when he became wounded (because of Guo Xiang) that he was in any danger at all. Sad Palms, even depowered, should probably be better than whatever random palms he was using.

If i misremember and he was actually using Sad Palms from the start, well even less to debate since he was clearly winning until GWM threw his wheels at Guo Xiang.

[Ren Wo Xing]

I think what PJ meant is that YG was winning the fight and would have defeated GWM even without Sad Palms, and it was only when he became wounded (because of Guo Xiang) that he was in any danger at all. Sad Palms, even depowered, should probably be better than whatever random palms he was using.

If i misremember and he was actually using Sad Palms from the start, well even less to debate since he was clearly winning until GWM threw his wheels at Guo Xiang.

What tape and PJ said.

[Snafu3721]

I think what PJ meant is that YG was winning the fight and would have defeated GWM even without Sad Palms, and it was only when he became wounded (because of Guo Xiang) that he was in any danger at all. Sad Palms, even depowered, should probably be better than whatever random palms he was using.

If i misremember and he was actually using Sad Palms from the start, well even less to debate since he was clearly winning until GWM threw his wheels at Guo Xiang.

Actually, YG was using sad palms the whole time after his sword was broken, it was just depowered. And GWM himself did think he would loose in a few hundred stances.

Which is starting to make me wonder about GWM's prowess. If YG was at least sadder when sparring with HYS, and HYS can neutralize the sad palms with finger flick...and then HYS said sad palms = dragon palms....

[tape]

Actually, YG was using sad palms the whole time after his sword was broken, it was just depowered. And GWM himself did think he would loose in a few hundred stances.

Right, which leads to Sad Palms without sadness being >= than GWM.

[Exodus]

we have to remember YG wasn't trying to kill HYS. In a fight to death the rest of the greats one on one would end just like GWM.

[tape]

we have to remember YG wasn't trying to kill HYS. In a fight to death the rest of the greats one on one would end just like GWM.

I agree with this, which is why most people rank GWM as slightly better than the old Greats but slightly worse than GJ/YG.

[Snafu3721]

But neither was HYS fighting life or death... so we don't know how well HYS would hold up using this argument

[Exodus]

But neither was HYS fighting life or death... so we don't know how well HYS would hold up using this argument

sure but i think it's fair to assume that GWM would've beat HYS in a fair fight...

[Snafu3721]

sure but i think it's fair to assume that GWM would've beat HYS in a fair fight...

To be honest... intuitively I want to say yes (although I can't sell myself completely on this idea)

But I also find it one of those JY mysteries that a relatively sad YG can be neutralized by HYS (and I don't believe YG was going easy because he wanted to test HYS's palm techniques due to the whole Nun of South sea ordeal). And HYS should be weaker than GJ...
But HYS then says YG's palm is as fierce as GJ

Which makes me believe finger snap = sad palm = dragon palm (and the only difference is the internal energy of the user)

Btw, after this discussion I have seriously started to re-evaluate YG's lvl and GWM's. Not necessarily based on the final display of Sad Palm's power, but YG's superiority over GWM as a whole