What is the minimum level fighter who could break a tie between two Greats?

[Ken Cheng]

The Greats of L/ROCH were almost ridiculously evenly matched. Nobody really had much of an advantage over anybody else.

If the margin between the Greats' martial arts level was that slim, then ostensibly, one Great getting help from another (non-Great) fighter could turn the fight in this Great's advantage. What's the minimum martial arts level of the interloper, however, that could actually make a difference if this interloper were to help tip the balance in favor of one Great against another?

[Snafu3721]

If it's just one additional interloper, it would have to be someone who can at least survive 1 stance from a Great. So it would have to be at least QCJ level

[shrang]

Well, if you can get the two Greats into an internal energy contest, any scrub can tip the balance by distracting one of them, so long as they do it properly. While pre-16 year YG and GWM weren't exactly ROCH great level, all it took was some injured girl to slowly threaten a needle into GWM's eye to tip the balance.

[Ken Cheng]

Well, if you can get the two Greats into an internal energy contest, any scrub can tip the balance by distracting one of them, so long as they do it properly. While pre-16 year YG and GWM weren't exactly ROCH great level, all it took was some injured girl to slowly threaten a needle into GWM's eye to tip the balance.

I'm thinking about an actual gang-up, though.

For example, if East Heretic and West Poison were having a one-on-one fight, and the two Greats were evenly matched...what would happen if young Wong Yung decided to help her dad by ganging up with him against Au Yeung Fung? Would her relatively weak martial arts make any difference? If not, what if Mui Chiu Fung were to gang up with her teacher against Au Yeung Fung (don't use what happened in the novel as an example; in that case, she just passively sacrificed herself; I'm talking about actively going on the offensive and making it a two-on-one situation)?

[tape]

Wasn't there that quote about nobody in the world being able to withstand the combined power of Ouyang Feng + 4 Quanzhen priests or something like that? It should be around the fight where Mei Chaofeng died, but I don't really remember the context.

Another applicable scenario would be Guo Jing being able to fight QQR evenly thanks to Huang Rong using Dog Beating Stick in conjunction with him. In this case, Guo Jing should still be way behind QQR, (60% or so I'd guess) but the addition of Huang Rong made them equal or even have a slight advantage. Huang Rong at this time still has much weaker inner power than a Quanzhen priest, but I suspect Dog Beating Stick is more important.

Just as the Murong Fu + Yau Tanzhi combo, the weaker person helping must have extraordinary technique in order to help the fight. Huang Rong, though much weaker than a QZ priest at this point, was probably loads more helpful than a QZ priest would be due to Dog Beating STick.

[Snafu3721]

Wasn't there that quote about nobody in the world being able to withstand the combined power of Ouyang Feng + 4 Quanzhen priests or something like that? It should be around the fight where Mei Chaofeng died, but I don't really remember the context.

Another applicable scenario would be Guo Jing being able to fight QQR evenly thanks to Huang Rong using Dog Beating Stick in conjunction with him. In this case, Guo Jing should still be way behind QQR, (60% or so I'd guess) but the addition of Huang Rong made them equal or even have a slight advantage. Huang Rong at this time still has much weaker inner power than a Quanzhen priest, but I suspect Dog Beating Stick is more important.

Just as the Murong Fu + Yau Tanzhi combo, the weaker person helping must have extraordinary technique in order to help the fight. Huang Rong, though much weaker than a QZ priest at this point, was probably loads more helpful than a QZ priest would be due to Dog Beating STick.

But this does not establish the tipping point at which a person can assist in helping one Great beat another. THe OYF + 4 QZ preists is an "unbeatable" combo. Meaning that it's basically a guaranteed win against another Great or anybody else in LOCH at the time.

[Ken Cheng]

But this does not establish the tipping point at which a person can assist in helping one Great beat another. THe OYF + 4 QZ preists is an "unbeatable" combo. Meaning that it's basically a guaranteed win against another Great or anybody else in LOCH at the time.

That's how I interpret it too...and although Au Yeung Fung was the Great that Jin Yong named in this example, I believe that any of the other Greats could be substituted for him...it wasn't Au Yeung Fung-specific.

Come to think of it, the Au Yeung Fung + four Cheun Jen Disciples combination sounds like a forerunner of the Golden Wheel Monk + three mercenaries scenario that Gwok Jing faced during ROCH. Indeed, no one person alive at the time could have defeated that combination.

[tape]

Well, there is the second part of my post

I don't know if I was unclear, but I was just pointing out that 4 Quanzhen priests are definitely enough to swing the favor in a Greats vs Greats type fight, while a young Huang Rong with Dog Beating Stick was enough to equalize a 60% Guo Jing vs a Great. That would likely mean young Huang Rong is also enough to swing the favor of a fight in a Great versus Great, but it is specific to her Dog Beating Stick. Her actual martial arts level was still technically lower than Qiu Chuji, but I don't think Qiu by himself is enough to swing the favor.

[Snafu3721]

Thanks for clarification =P
It was unclear from the previous post because it didn't seem to answer the question. It provided examples of synergy whereby sub-Greats worked together to equal a Great, but didn't quite establish the baseline where one individual would swing the favor in a Great vs Great fight.

I agree that HR with dog beating stick would tip the tide in the presented Great vs Great scenario. But she's quite powerful at that point (I would say probably better than QCJ in terms of actual combat prowess).

But that's throwing in quite a strong 2nd tier character into the duel. I believe the bare minimum needed to give one side an advantage would be QCJ lvl. Someone who couldn't get 1-hit KO'ed and can provide a slight edge.

[tape]

People with uber techniques are still required, if their inner strength is far below that of a Great. It makes it hard to judge what exactly their "true" martial arts level is though.

Linghu Chong with DG9J, young Huang Rong with Dog Beating Stick, both are described to be inferior to even 2nd tier fighters in terms of true martial arts, but their actual effectiveness is much higher. It makes you really wonder how to classify people's levels when theres the theoretical (and inner power based) "true" level, and the effectiveness/combat ability battle. Pre-16 HIS Yang Guo would also fall into this category.

So in relation to this question, I think QCJ, who's "true" level is still much higher than Huang Rong's, wouldn't be of much help. We see how Guo Jing was able to take out a Mongol mercenary, who is better than even a ROCH Qiu Chuji, instantly even with a bunch of other high level fighters. With just one semi-high level fighter, I think a Great would be able to find a chance to injure him just as Guo Jing did. There was a surprise factor, but I think it's mitigated by the fact that there aren't several high level fighters to help out.

There just doesn't seem to be enough variety in martial arts levels; either you're like 10% of a Great, or you're a Great. Hard to find a character without gimmicky uber techniques that would tip the tide. I think it'd take someone like Duan Yanqing to really tip the battle enough to provide a solid chance of winning. Someone like Qiu Chuji of course would be better than nothing, but I think it'd only be 1-5% increase, unless they resort to staying far away and throwing projectiles or something like that.

[Ken Cheng]

Consider too this: the Greats were so evenly matched that when they fought each other, they had to be extremely careful and focus all their attention on the fight. Even the smallest distraction could be costly or even fatal.

The Gong Nam 7 Freaks are much weaker than any Great, and yet, if all seven Freaks were to gang up with East Heretic Wong Yerk See against West Poison Au Yeung Fung, wouldn't the Freaks create enough of a distraction for Au Yeung Fung that he'd be vulnerable to Wong Yerk See's attack? The Freaks might not be strong, but even so, Au Yeung Fung couldn't just *ignore* them while fighting Wong Yerk See at the same time. The Freaks' weapons can still hurt Au Yeung Fung if they make contact, and if Au Yeung Fung's attention is focused entirely on defending against Wong Yerk See, he'd be vulnerable to the Freaks.

Oddly, however, Wong Yerk See was able to last against Au Yeung Fung and all seven Cheun Jen Disciples (using 7 Stars Big Dipper Formation) for a short time. He didn't go down right away despite the overwhelming odds against him (although it was just a matter of time; Mui Chiu Fung's self-sacrifice saved him). Later in LOCH, Gwok Jing had to hold his own against Au Yeung Fung, Kau Cheen Yan, and Chow Bak Tung (each of whom was more powerful than he) very briefly (granted, it didn't last long and Chow Bak Tung wasn't really trying to harm Gwok Jing). How is this even possible?

[PJ]

If it's just one additional interloper, it would have to be someone who can at least survive 1 stance from a Great.

Not necessarily. Even if that person died in just one stance, that might distract the enemy-Great enough to give his partner-Great the chance to strike down the enemy-Great.

[Ian Liew]

Oddly, however, Wong Yerk See was able to last against Au Yeung Fung and all seven Cheun Jen Disciples (using 7 Stars Big Dipper Formation) for a short time. He didn't go down right away despite the overwhelming odds against him (although it was just a matter of time; Mui Chiu Fung's self-sacrifice saved him).

He didn't actually fight them all at once - he was engaged with the Quanzhen Seven, when OYF, seeing the potential threat the Big Dipper formation could be to him in the future, ambushed Tan Chuduan fatally from behind, so the Big Dipper was effectively finished then (and how on earth the remaining six needed Guo Jing to tell them that it was OYF, and not HYS, who killed Tan is beyond me). A handful of the Quanzhen Seven then charged HYS in anger, and while he was preoccupied with them OYF charged him full force from the back and MCF took the blow for him. If it was really OYF plus the Big Dipper HYS would probably have went down fairly quickly - he already had problems with Guo Jing in Polaris and the weakened Big Dipper with Yin Zhiping/Ke Zhener in Tan Chuduan's place, although that was probably because Guo Jing was preventing him from taking the safe spot invulnerable to the formation. If GJ was just charging him blindly with no knowledge of the importance of the Polaris position HYS would most likely not have that many problems.

[Snafu3721]

Not necessarily. Even if that person died in just one stance, that might distract the enemy-Great enough to give his partner-Great the chance to strike down the enemy-Great.

Thisis because I believe that anyone who would die in one stance would not add any value beyond the one stance. I don't think based on a pure martial perspective (no special distractions like holding someone hostage, etc) the Greats would loose immediately to each other just because they were bothered by 1 additional scrub.

Case in point ROCH GJ vs GWM + Mercs

[PJ]

Thisis because I believe that anyone who would die in one stance would not add any value beyond the one stance. I don't think based on a pure martial perspective (no special distractions like holding someone hostage, etc) the Greats would loose immediately to each other just because they were bothered by 1 additional scrub.

It's probably true in a competition of martial arts. I was thinking more in a "do whatever to win" case. For example, when Feng Mofeng held on to GWM's legs, GWM was immobilized which allowed YG + GJ to escape. If a low level scrub sacrificed his life just to distract the Great, it could distract him enough to be open to an attack.

Case in point ROCH GJ vs GWM + Mercs

Well, the mercs were not going kamakazee.

[Snafu3721]

Food for thought--

Although the likes of HR and XLN clearly prove an advantage due to their useful techniques in a Great vs Great battle, but as mentioned above they had relatively weak internal.

So while their martial output (combat prowess) is quite high, their paper stats (or as Tape put it "true" lvl) are relatively low. This would like giving a lvl 5 RPG character a lvl 10 spell. Although they can cast it, it's not quite suited for their lvls. While a lvl 10 character may only have learned a lvl 5 spell and thus can't cause as much damage per spell cast.

Where I'm going with this is, what if the Greats just roared using their internal during their fight? Technically, all combatants who can't withstand the roar would be useless. So the minimum threshold for an interloper to be useful should be people who can survive a stance or two and provide some backup via technique, but also have sufficient internal to survive roars.

[Ken Cheng]

Food for thought--

Although the likes of HR and XLN clearly prove an advantage due to their useful techniques in a Great vs Great battle, but as mentioned above they had relatively weak internal.

So while their martial output (combat prowess) is quite high, their paper stats (or as Tape put it "true lvl) are relatively low. This would like giving a lvl 5 RPG character a lvl 10 spell. Although they can cast it, it's not quite suited for their lvls. While a lvl 10 character may only have learned a lvl 5 spell and thus can't cause as much damage per spell cast.

Where I'm going with this is, what if the Greats just roared using their internal during their fight? Technically, all combatants who can't withstand the roar would be useless. So the minimum threshold for an interloper to be useful should be people who can survive a stance or two and provide some backup via technique, but also have sufficient internal to survive roars.

Oddly enough, the Greats-level fighters seem to develop amnesia about their roars when they get into a rough spot.

[Snafu3721]

It's probably true in a competition of martial arts. I was thinking more in a "do whatever to win" case. For example, when Feng Mofeng held on to GWM's legs, GWM was immobilized which allowed YG + GJ to escape. If a low level scrub sacrificed his life just to distract the Great, it could distract him enough to be open to an attack.

Agree with this point, that's why I mentioned pure martial perspective. Because technically a scrub could hold a knife to the throat of OYK's neck and that would distract OYF enough to loose the battle. Or someone could've hit HR's accupoint and threaten to disfigure her, which would definitely distract HYS

Well, the mercs were not going kamakazee.

Yes, but even if they did, I don't think they would have tipped the scale in GWM's favor within 1 stance. By which point any of the mercs who can't take 1 stance from GJ would be down.
As Ken mentioned, GJ fought QQR + ZBT + OYF for a few stances and he was not even a Great himself. This just means even for a Great vs Great match, they are ableto deal with multiple opponents for a certain time frame before the tag-team starts to overwhelm the individual Great