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The Forbidden City The City Of Disillusionment (幻滅紫禁城) - Page 9
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Thread: The Forbidden City The City Of Disillusionment (幻滅紫禁城)

  1. #161
    Senior Member charbydis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suzaku View Post
    I never care too much for historical accuracy in fiction. I love it when writers weave history together with fiction that gives a different plausible perspective as to what and why something happen.
    Really depends what happens. I have read totally historical inaccurate stories before which makes me cringe as it is 100% fantasy. I too prefer half-fiction and half-real weaved together, as long as it isn't too outrageous. 100% real is like a documentary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Suzaku View Post
    I just have a soft spot for Zhengde as a historical character. Zhengde was very interesting and multi-faceted. He was a frivolous emperor, but in a whimsical way. You would think that he was just another debauch emperor, but he defied all his minister and led the military campaign and won. (I do believe he led it.) For an emperor to decide to take another name, Zhu Shou, in itself is crazy but also whimsical. This is an element of Zhengde that makes him interesting and fun to read or write about.
    My main problems with the Yingzhou campaign is that when you look at the statistics which were very detailed in casulties if you compared it to something the Battle of Tumu Fortress, it actually says the exact number of casulaties on both sides which was like 300 and 200 whereas most accounts of war is which side won with great or little casualities. So out of 120000 people all together only 600 or so died. Makes me think that it was not such a heated battle afterall and that something else happened that influenced the outcome of the Yingzhou Campaign.

    Quote Originally Posted by Suzaku View Post
    I believe that Zhengde has some leadership and military skills in him. The "Little Emperor" caused havoc for years, and he was undefeated by the Ming generals. There was one time that the Little Emperor invaded the Ming borders, camped out, and pillaged where they want, and the Ming dynasty can't stop them. So it is not a small feat to win a campaign against the Little Emperor, which Zhengde did. Another telling point, the Little Emperor never returned after this battle with Zhengde. And there wasn't really any other general at the time that could have helped Zhengde behind the scenes. This was his first military campaign and instead of cowering at the sight of the Mongolian horde, he led his army against them. He was leading in the front ranks, not sitting in the background, and he raised army morale by charging back and forth through the ranks. This defies the brattish and debauch view that is typically associated with him, and shows bravery, leadership, and budding military talent.
    Wait. I thought Wang Shou Ren was the main general who helped settle the Chen Hao Rebellion which was years before the "Little Prince" incident. By the mid-Ming dyansty, Mongolian military power had been severely fragmented by civil war. I heard "Little Prince" was died right after the loss to Ming in 1517, and his sons fought over his army.

    Quote Originally Posted by Suzaku View Post
    As you can see I do have a bias towards Zhengde because he is so much more interesting than the stereotypical debauch emperor.
    Totally understandable. I have extreme bias towards Prince of Ning who even though failed in his attempt to usurp the throne, is super cool and I can see why he needed to rebel. And I think you must have realised that I really like Liu Jin as well. Winners are boring to me. I like people who try and fail tragically. I never feel that there is only one way to view a historical figure for afterall, they are real 3-D people. I really think that Zhengde was misguided in real history and that led to his fate of being condemned a bad Emperor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Suzaku View Post
    I look forward to reading what you do with Lady Wan. She has one of the most tender love story. She would have been a very nice lady, only if her lover wasn't the emperor.
    I actually find Emperor Chenghua and Lady Wan's love quite touching and unique since it was not based on superficial looks. She was super crazy with jealousy at times, but I understand why she was so insecure and I will elaborate on that in Book 2 and 3. I don't think she should have gone as extreme as she did, but I find their relationship fascinating and invulnerable with all the pressures they were put through. As I said in my prologue, the Forbidden City is a intricate web that draws people to destruction. Lady Wan would not have been that "evil" if she was not living in the palace. I would be using her as a flashback character amongst others to build up my own characters with their interaction. She will have her moments of expressing her thoughts but she will not be a main or popular character. Just warning you that she will not have a good ending.

    Even though I like writing about history, I feel very uncomfortable writing too much about them as I will offend people if they do not agree with me or if I used the wrong facts. I have written other projects before and got hate mail which I dislike. I have no problems discussing a difference of opinion but going crackers and sending me hatemail is a nono.

    Furthermore, there are a lot of restraints and limits when trying to plan a plot. You have to follow a historical event timeline with the oitcomes already planned. very hard to make twists so I tend to insert original characters for me to utilise. I will soon move away from palace life soon and focus on wulin travelling and group fights which is more my style!
    Last edited by charbydis; 09-15-11 at 09:37 AM.
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  2. #162
    Senior Member tweety365's Avatar
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    I, for one, applaud you for even attempting to weave history with fiction, charby. It's a very difficult task.


    Btw, is this emperor Zhengde the same one depicted in Legendary Four Aces by Ellesmere Choi? I think Gallen Lo also took the role in The Last Conquest?

  3. #163
    Senior Member Melanie's Avatar
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    Yup, I agree; weaving history in with fiction is very difficult. I have enough problems coming up with the fictional plot. To add historical facts in, too, would be too straining for me. Good for you, charbydis! You must have spent a lot of time doing research.

    The emperor in Legendary Four Aces is such an idiot. Gallen Lo's version is a bit more sensible.

    By the way, I love the panda pictures! They're so cute and furry I just want to hug and kiss them. They kind of look like my big Pooh, except my Pooh is honey yellow and the pandas are black and white.

  4. #164
    Senior Member charbydis's Avatar
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    Not talking to you! : (unless you confess your undying love for Lau Gan/Liu Jin! )

    This is the first and final time I am writing a historical wuxia plot. Too hard! But like Ken said, sometimes we write fanfics because we want to tell a certain story for our own fulfillment. There has always been an itch for me to do such a fanfic so here it is!

    Basically I just need to pick a time in history where there is a lot of conflict and I can find any old excuse to start a mass fight!
    "Better to write for yourself and have no public, than to write for the public and have no self."
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  5. #165
    Senior Member charbydis's Avatar
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    Real pandas smell bad. It like polar bears. Good to look at from afar but when you save them face-to-face, your sense of smell takes over!
    "Better to write for yourself and have no public, than to write for the public and have no self."
    Cyril Connolly

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by charbydis View Post

    My main problems with the Yingzhou campaign is that when you look at the statistics which were very detailed in casulties if you compared it to something the Battle of Tumu Fortress, it actually says the exact number of casulaties on both sides which was like 300 and 200 whereas most accounts of war is which side won with great or little casualities. So out of 120000 people all together only 600 or so died. Makes me think that it was not such a heated battle afterall and that something else happened that influenced the outcome of the Yingzhou Campaign.

    The statistics I saw regarding the Yingzhou campaign were even lower, so low that I found it unbelievable. I double checked the timeline and found that "the Little Emperor" is actually Dayan Khan, which I find very cool. Just because I heart Queen Mandukhai more than any other woman in history.

    Even if the Ming did not want to engage in heated battle, if Dayan Khan is coming with 50,000 men he is not going to retreat after losing a couple hundred men. Dayan caused havoc in the Ming borders because (1) he didn't want to submit to Ming and enter the tribute system; and (2) Ming did not want to trade with them. So Dayan needs to get his resources from the Ming by stealing, why would he leave/retreat empty handed. Not too good for his ego; so far he has a perfect winning streak against the Ming - I cannot see him leaving empty handed back and returning to his homeland after losing a couple men. So I came to the conclusion that something is awry with the statistics. Probably a combination of downplaying Zhengde's military prowess because of his debauchery in court and not recognizing the strength of Dayan Khan. ( Chinese historians never recognize him as Dayan Khan and instead call him Little Prince or Little Emperor.)

    But that is just my humble opinion and conclusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by charbydis View Post

    Wait. I thought Wang Shou Ren was the main general who helped settle the Chen Hao Rebellion which was years before the "Little Prince" incident. By the mid-Ming dyansty, Mongolian military power had been severely fragmented by civil war. I heard "Little Prince" was died right after the loss to Ming in 1517, and his sons fought over his army.

    Dayan Khan was repelled by Zhengde around 1517. Wang Shouren aka Wang Yang Ming put down Prince of Ning Zhu Chen Hao in 1519 and Zhu ChenHao died in 1521. Wang Shouren was the governor of Jiangxi at the time, so he was in the midst of Prince Ning's rebellion and prepared to quell the rebellion before the news even arrived at the imperial city. Wang Shouren should be in Jiangxi when Dayan Khan arrived; hence it is highly unlikely he will be at the northern borders and fought Dayan Khan. (Although it will be very interesting if it did happen.) Unless you're referred to something else as the Chen Hao rebellion?


    What happened to Dayan Khan is a bit mysterious. The records state that his reign ended in 1517, but his death was recorded as 1543. It is a mystery why there is a thirty year gap. The Mongolian forces were fragmented, but Dayan Khan and Queen Mandukhai brought the second highest level of unity and integrity since Genghis Khan. The fighting forces can not compare to the Golden Horde of Genghis Khan, but Dayan Khan and Queen Manduhai controlled the largest amount of land and enjoyed the highest level of unity since the end of the Yuan Dynasty.

    Although the Chinese historians downplayed Dayan Khan and his strength - he and especially Queen Manduhai was a force to be reckoned with. (Unfortunately Queen Manduhai died a couple years before the YingZhou campaign.)

    Quote Originally Posted by charbydis View Post

    Even though I like writing about history, I feel very uncomfortable writing too much about them as I will offend people if they do not agree with me or if I used the wrong facts. I have written other projects before and got hate mail which I dislike. I have no problems discussing a difference of opinion but going crackers and sending me hatemail is a nono.

    Furthermore, there are a lot of restraints and limits when trying to plan a plot. You have to follow a historical event timeline with the oitcomes already planned. very hard to make twists so I tend to insert original characters for me to utilise. I will soon move away from palace life soon and focus on wulin travelling and group fights which is more my style!
    I wonder which historical character can invoke hate mail? I like historical fictions because it is a lot of fun bringing or reading about a historical character coming to life, especially someone as whimsy as Zhengde or as devious and Wei ZhongXin.

  7. #167
    Senior Member charbydis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suzaku View Post
    Dayan Khan was repelled by Zhengde around 1517. Wang Shouren aka Wang Yang Ming put down Prince of Ning Zhu Chen Hao in 1519 and Zhu ChenHao died in 1521. Wang Shouren was the governor of Jiangxi at the time, so he was in the midst of Prince Ning's rebellion and prepared to quell the rebellion before the news even arrived at the imperial city. Wang Shouren should be in Jiangxi when Dayan Khan arrived; hence it is highly unlikely he will be at the northern borders and fought Dayan Khan. (Although it will be very interesting if it did happen.) Unless you're referred to something else as the Chen Hao rebellion?
    No. I think you are right. Yingzhou Campaign happened before The Chen Hao Rebellion. Silly me!


    Quote Originally Posted by Suzaku View Post
    What happened to Dayan Khan is a bit mysterious. The records state that his reign ended in 1517, but his death was recorded as 1543. It is a mystery why there is a thirty year gap. The Mongolian forces were fragmented, but Dayan Khan and Queen Mandukhai brought the second highest level of unity and integrity since Genghis Khan. The fighting forces can not compare to the Golden Horde of Genghis Khan, but Dayan Khan and Queen Manduhai controlled the largest amount of land and enjoyed the highest level of unity since the end of the Yuan Dynasty.

    Although the Chinese historians downplayed Dayan Khan and his strength - he and especially Queen Manduhai was a force to be reckoned with. (Unfortunately Queen Manduhai died a couple years before the YingZhou campaign.)
    I have little knowledge of the Mongolian leadership post Yuan Dynasty cos it is so confusing with all these different fragments of tribes. I only know the famous names and a little about them from other posters.

    Can you tell me more about Dayan Khan and Queen Manduhai?
    "Better to write for yourself and have no public, than to write for the public and have no self."
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  8. #168
    Senior Member charbydis's Avatar
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    Default Book One: The Fist Of Domination (權傾天下)

    Chapter Twenty-Six:

    Cast of Appearing Characters:

    Yeung Ming Hung – Kenneth Ma Kwok Ming
    Yiu So Sum – Tavia Yeung Yi
    Cheung Wan Sheung – Nancy Wu Ding Yan
    Kuk Yuen Yau – Lelia Tong Ling
    Suen Nga Yin – Natalie Tong See Wing
    So Yee Ha – Sharon Chan Man Chi
    Siu Kei Chi – Sammul Chan Kin Fung
    Emperor Ching Dak/Chu Hau Chiu – Matt Yeung Ming



    Back in the gardens, So Yee Ha was slowly being dragged away by the eunuchs as Kuk Yuen Yau tried to keep a hold of her hands. The ladies gazed at each other tearfully as the eunuchs tore them apart and led her away through a gate.

    “I am sorry, Yee Ha!” wept Kuk Yuen Yau with great regret, “It is my fault! I will always remember you!” Siu Kei Chi held Kuk Yuen Yau up as her feet buckled under the grief, unable to cope with the fate of her dear friend.

    Suddenly, the battle groans of male voices could be heard and the eunuchs were sent tumbling back though the gate as a black-clad masked man forced his way into the courtyard. Yeung Ming Hung valiantly beat down the swarm of guards that had been pursuing him and to his annoyance; he could hear another rush approaching at him not too far away.

    Seeing a rich-dressed lady lying on the ground, he concluded that she was be someone important and decided to take her hostage to ensure his escape.

    He leapt over his fallen opponents and grabbed So Yee Ha by the back of her robe. In a loud voice, he yelled, “Come any closer and I will put my spear through her throat!” he threatened in a loud way and the oncoming guards were deterred, not daring to take a further step forward.

    “Yee Ha!” cried Kuk Yuen Yau in concern, trying to fight her way to her friend but Siu Kei Chi forced her backwards whilst keeping his eyes warily on Yeung Ming Hung and the spear in his hand.

    “It is dangerous, my Lady!” he warned. Yeung Ming Hung was slowly making his way across the garden. The guards slowly took steps after him but dared not get too close lest he injure So Yee Ha.

    But who would have guessed what the Emperor would say? The Emperor stood up and ordered, “Get that intruder at all costs! So Yee Ha is no longer a concubine of mine! I was going to behead her anyway! Catch that intruder!” and the guards immediately reacted.

    Yeung Ming Hung had never wanted to injure her and only wanted to use her to escape. Seeing that the guards were not going to regard her safety at all, he quickly swung So Yee Ha to one side as he tackled the horde of eunuch guards with his golden spear. He let her go but swiftly grabbed her again to save her from the sharp blades that were coming at them. He knew that once he let go, she would probably be impaled anyway. But he was only one man and with So Yee Ha to protect, how many more guards could he take on?

    Suddenly, a female pushed through the guards and ran in front of Yeung Ming Hung. “Don’t harm Yee Ha!” cried Suen Nga Yin. The guards did not take any further action until they received further information on whether the Emperor cared for this woman or not.

    Suen NgaYin and Yeung Ming Hung’s eyes met and she quickly mouthed, “Capture me!” Her back was towards the guards and no one else except Yeung Ming Hung and So Yee Ha could see what she hinting.

    Yeung Ming Hung understood her meaning and quickly reached forward and grabbed both ladies with the same arm. The Emperor immediately reacted. Jumping up from behind the rinf of security before him, he shouted, “Stand back! That is my beloved concubine!” he shouted at once. And the guards immediately lowered their swords and obeyed.

    Using So Yee Ha’s head as cover, Suen Nga Yin turned and whispered in Yeung Ming Hung’s ear. “So Sum and Wan Sheung told me everything! I know why you are here but you will never get out using Yee Ha as cover. Take both of us as hostage! But you must promise me to deliver her safety from the Forbidden City. If Yee Ha stays in the Imperial Palace, she will most certainly die!” Though So Yee Ha could not turn her head back, she heard the sincere words and tears of gratefulness streamed down her face.

    But when none of the eunuch guards dared take any action, Siu Kei Chi leapt forward to attack the two ladies and Yeung Ming Hung quickly stepped forward to meet him. He locked Yeung Ming Hung’s spear with one hand whilst he threw a palm at him with the other. With his left hand engaged by holding the two ladies, Yeung Ming Hung delivered a speedy kick to Siu Kei Chi’s abdomen which he quickly spun to one side to avoid. Yeung Ming Hung kept Siu Kei Chi at a distance with a series of stabs with his golden spear but his movement was greatly restricted by the weight of the two ladies.

    Siu Kei Chi took advantage of this and accelerated his attacks with extra force. Thought at a disadvantage, Yeung Ming Hung was handling the blows valiantly, but it was only a matter of time before he would get tired and lose the upper hand.

    Both Yiu So Sum and Cheung Wan Sheung were watching from a hidden location. Yiu So Sum clenched her fights in anger as she recognised Siu Kei Chi from their earlier fight in Kuk Yuen Yau’s room. “That dreadful eunuch! I thought he was a good person!” But Cheung Wan Sheung saw the danger that her senior martial brother was in and took action.

    The guards were distracted by the sudden loud bangs and the courtyard was filled with thick smoke. But even with low visibility, the two men continued their duel. Under the heavy cover, Yiu So Sum jumped amidst the smoke and palmed Siu Kei Chi on both shoulders, sending him flying backwards. Siu Kei Chi bounced back onto his feet at once and lunged into the smoke to find his opponent.

    By the time the smoke cleared, the intruder and his hostages were long gone and the only thing he found was Kuk Yuen Yau glaring at him with hatred in her eyes.

    For a normal healthy person, it usually took about two hours to run from one end of the Imperial Palace to the other. Although he had the two maids’ guidance though shortcuts, Yeung Ming Hung and the two ladies had to evade the eunuch guards and made it to the Gate of the Black Tortoise within three hours. The sky was beginning to dim to their advantage but news of intruders inside the Imperial Palace has spread at a much quicker pace and a troop of Imperial Guards were garrisoned at each gate awaiting their arrival. The Gate of the Black Tortoise was no exception.

    Yeung Ming Hung’s Ferghana horse was in a stable not too far from the Outer Gate of the Black Tortoise. But from here till there, they could only go on foot. Even if he was able to single-handedly repel all of the Imperial Guards stationed at the gate, there was no guarantee that he would get to the inn without being overtaken by pursuing guards on horseback.

    They were safely hidden amongst the tall shadows cast by the tall red wall. Yeung Ming Hung leaned close to his friends, “So Sum! Wan Sheung! Why don’t you leave right away? There is no use having all of us caught.”

    Yiu So Sum replied indignantly, “You think we can just leave you here? We won’t go until we see you leave safely!”

    “Yeah!” agreed Cheung Wan Sheung, “Even if we lose our lives, we will help you and Lady So escape!”

    At this point, So Yee Ha spoke out. She had been silent and despondent since the traumatic ordeal. Her abdomen was cramping with agonizing pains but she dared not tell anyone lest she add to their worries. “Leave me here and go! I know I will only be a burden if Hero Yeung takes me with him.”

    Gazing at all of them in turn with watery eyes, “I, So Yee Ha, am grateful to have known all of you in this lifetime. I will remember all of you in my afterlife!”

    “Don’t be silly!” scolded Yeung Ming Hung, “How can you stay here when you are treated so inhumanely? I will take you with me alive and well if that is the last thing I do!”

    Turning to his Cheung Wan Sheung, he ordered, “Return to the Maid’s Chambers at once and take Lady Suen with you! She has done enough for us! We cannot let her be harmed because of us!”

    Suen Nga Yin turned to look at him and said with a hint of arrogance, “I, Suen Nga Yin, do not offer my help easily. But once I do, I will assist you all the way. Come on!”

    Yeung Ming Hung was startled when she grabbed his hand unexpectedly and dragged him out into the open with So Yee Ha. Yiu So Sum tried to grab at them but she was not quick enough.

    Suen Nga Yin hauled Yeung Ming Hung’s spear head to her neck and then screamed as loud as she could, “Help! Save me!” and immediately, all the Imperial Guards on the ground and on the fortifications pointed their sword in her direction and surrounded them. Yeung Ming Hung grabbed both ladies and rotated slowly to see the positions of all the Imperial Guards around him.

    “Help! I am Lady Suen, fifth-rank Cultured Concubine of the Emperor! This bandit says he will slit my throat if you do not let him exit the Gate of the Black Tortoise! Save me!” she shrieked in a false voice.

    Someone ignited a red flare that shot up into the sky and marked their position. The commander of the Imperial Guards shouted loudly in response. “Let the Lady Suen go, you bandit! We have you surrounded! We have already notified reinforcements! There is no way you can escape!”

    Yeung Ming Hung caught on her intention and bellowed, “Come any closer and see her blood spill!”

    Suen Nga Yin shrieked again. “I think my neck is bleeding already! How dare you endanger my life, lowly servants? Don’t forget that I am a fifth-rank Cultured Concubine of the Emperor! If he finds a single scratch on me and he will have you all beheaded!”

    The Imperial Guards were in a dilemma. If they let the intruder leave, they will be beheaded. But if they captured or kill the intruder but injure an imperial consort in the process, they will also be beheaded. Either way, they would lose their heads. The Imperial Guards took their time to decide but Yeung Ming Hung was running out of time as a thousand Imperial Guards were probably running in their direction at this moment.

    There came a few painful cries from guards with the sound of a cracking whip as they were knocked unconscious. Two well-built stallions came galloping towards Yeung Ming Hung and the voice of Yiu So Sum rang clearly in the air. “Get on the horse!”

    A rain of darts plummeted onto the Imperial Guards at both gates and drove them to take cover. Taking advantage of the distraction, Yeung Ming Hing tossed So Yee Ha in the saddle of one horse, while he leapt onto the other with Suen Nga Yin seated before him. Suen Nga Yin noticed that his left arm was wrapped tightly around her waist to get to the reins and she blushed silently in the dark.

    The two horses galloped at full speed towards the middle gateway and all the Imperial Guards quickly dived out of their way. They were only metres from reaching the outside gate when two stones suddenly hit the horses on the back leg. The horses jolted backwards with panic and So Yee Ha would have tumbled off had Yeung Ming Hung not pulled the reins of her horse forward with his spear handle.

    “Going somewhere?” Yeung Ming Hung froze as the voice of Lau Gan resonated between the tall walls.
    -----------------------------------------------
    Author's Note:

    The Gate of the Black Tortoise (玄武門 - not to be confused with the one Li Shimin killed his brothers at during the early Tang Dynasty) is now more commonly known as the Gate of the Divine Might (神武門). It was named after the Chinese Diety Lord Xuan Wu (also known as 玄天上帝 or 真武大帝) who accordingly to legend, washed his intestines in a river out of guilt for his sins and the contents formed a tortoise and snake demon who wrecked havoc on the villages.. Lord Xuan Wu later subdued them and made them his top two generals.

    Lord Xuan Wu was known as the protector and war deity of the Ming Empire after Emperor Yongle (Zhu Di) prayed to him for success in his campaign to rebel against Emperor Jianwen. After winning the battle and securing the throne, he built many temples for Lord Xuan Wu to express his gratitude and even named the North Gate of the Forbidden City after him.

    Its name was changed in the early Qing Dynasty when Emperor Kangxi came to the throne for it shared the same character as Emperor Kangxi's name Xuanye (玄燁) and it was a taboo. So it became the Gate of the Divine Might (神武門).

    It is the exit gate when you now enter the Forbidden City and you can see Jing Mountain where the last Ming Emperor Emperor Chongzhen hanged himself when his dynasty fell to the forces of Li Zhicheng.

    Last edited by charbydis; 09-18-11 at 08:37 AM.
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    Senior Member charbydis's Avatar
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    The tree where Emperor Chongzhen of Ming allegedly hanged himself. It is now a momument dedicated to him within the now Jing Shan Park, which is a community park for old people to gather and enjoy themselves.



    Jing Shan was also known as Coal Mountain, for it was where the Ming Dynasty decided to keep vast amounts of coal in case the Mongolians attacked and cut off supplies from the north. It is actually an artifical mountain, made by the dirt dug out when the moat for the Forbidden City was constructed.

    I missed out on going on my last trip to Bejing because it was Labour Day and I was stuck at the Gate of Divine Might with hundreds of people for about one hour. Took me another hour to get back to my hotel. I hope I get the time to go and visit Jing Shan Park next time.
    "Better to write for yourself and have no public, than to write for the public and have no self."
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    Quote Originally Posted by charbydis View Post

    I have little knowledge of the Mongolian leadership post Yuan Dynasty cos it is so confusing with all these different fragments of tribes. I only know the famous names and a little about them from other posters.

    Can you tell me more about Dayan Khan and Queen Manduhai?
    Queen Manduhai is one of my favorite historical characters in history. She sacrificed everything, including the man she loved, to protect a dying empire. Although historians mark the end of the Yuan Dynasty at the point where the Mongolians left inner China, many Mongolians did not recognize that as the end of the dynasty – to them they were merely in exile and will reclaim their power over China one day. Like the sentiments of people in Southern Song era that dreamed of reclaiming their lost land in Northern Song era.

    To protect the dynasty and legacy of Genghis Khan, Queen Manduhai married the final descendant of Genghis Khan, protected him, raised him, taught him, and forged an empire with him. Queen Manduhai chose the title Dayan Khan (Great Khan of Great Yuan) for the child khan (who was 8 years old at the time), and led a series of military campaigns, which reunited the Mongolian empire. Instead of keeping Dayan Khan as a puppet, Queen Manduhai remained loyal to Dayan Khan and taught him everything about war and ruling as Khan.

    Manduhai’s story begins when was sixteen and married Manduul Khan (who was 25 years older than her). Manduul Khan was one of the few descendants of Genghis Khan. At the time, there were only two other member of the Borijin clan, the “Golden Prince,” a descendant of Genghis, and Une-Bolod descendant of Khasar (Genghis’s brother).

    Manduul Khan had no sons of his own and named the Golden Prince as his heir. Ismayil, one of the warlords, instigated a conspiracy and spread rumors about an affair between the Golden Prince and Manduul Khan’s first wife, Yeke Qabartu. The end result was the death of Manduul Khan, the disappearance of Yeke Qabartu, and the Golden Prince fleeing, leaving behind his wife and male child (Batu Mongke aka Dayan Khan). The Golden Prince later met his demise at the hands of bandits.
    Because of the death of both the Khan and the heir, Manduhai found herself to be a widowed queen whose hand in marriage will provide anyone with legitimacy to declare himself Khan. (It is Mongolian tradition for the succeeding Khan to take the dead Khan’s wife and herd as his own.) At the time, Manduhai could have chosen to married Ismayil or Une-Bolod (a general under the dead Manduul Khan) and continue living peacefully as Queen or taken Batu Mongke (the Golden Prince’s child) and surrendered to the Ming Dynasty.

    Instead, Manduhai married Batu Mongke (the Golden Prince’s child) and declared him as Dayan Khan. Dayan Khan was 8 years old. In doing so, she rejected the marriage proposal from Une-Bolod, the man whom she was rumored to love. Although Une-Bolod was rejected, he remained loyal to Queen Manduhai and Dayan Khan.

    Queen Manduhai had the military support of her supposed lover Une-Bolod, but she really had no land under her influence. The late Manduul Khan was a puppet under the control of one southern warlord, Beg-Arslan. So both Manduul Khan and Queen Manduhai were really only Khan and Khanate in name; hence, Queen Manduhai must win her own land on the battleground. After she declared Dayan Khan as Khan of Yuan, she took to the battlefield and defeated the Oirat – thereby reuniting the east and west.

    Dayan Khan was abandoned by his own father and he was tossed from person to person across the desert before Queen Manduhai rescued him. So it was said that Dayan Khan was so weak and sick at first that he wasn’t able to ride a horse – Queen Manduhai fashioned a basket like contraption to hold Dayan Kahn and rode with him into battle. Probably this was Queen Manduhai’s promise to Dayan Khan that they will live and die together, whatever the circumstances.

    And for the next thirty five years, Queen Manduhai and Dayan Khan fought by each other side and defeated Beg-Arslan, a major warlord south of the Gobi, and Ismayil. (Queen Manduhai was also fought several campaigns when she was pregnant with Dayan Khan’s child.) With Ismayil dead, Dayan Khan avenged his father and rescued his mother who became Ismayil’s wife.

    Against the backdrop where child khans were kept as puppets and rose and fell faster than chroniclers can keep track of, it only exemplifies the loyalty that Queen Manduhai has towards Dayan Khan and Yuan. After Queen Manduhai gave birth to her first son, she could have disposed of Dayan Khan, named their son as Khan, and continue to rule, but she remained loyal to Dayan Khan.

    From a distant corner north of the Gobi Desert, they built an empire that stretched from the Siberian tundra in the north, across the Gobi, to the edge of the Yellow River and south of it into the Ordos. The lands extended from the forests of Manchuria in the East past the Altai Mountains and out onto the steppes of Central Asia. (according to Wiki). They brought a new level of unity and structure to Mongolia and arguably brought post Yuan to its greatest heights after leaving mainland China.

    Didn’t mean to go on and on, but as I said I really heart Queen Manduhai. After the death of Manduul Khan, Manduhai was without a husband, without land, and without any men loyal to her – against all these odds she displayed immense courage and wisdom and remained loyal to the last remnants of the Yuan Empire, saved it from imminent destruction, and restored it to new heights.

  11. #171
    Senior Member tweety365's Avatar
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    Wow, I learned so much today! Thank you for the fascinating history lesson, Suzaku. After your detailed description of Queen Manduhai, she sounds like such a cool person. I wonder why there is no tv series on her. They keep remaking Wu Zetian as if there are no other historical figures worth watching.

    Btw, are you a fan of Fushigi Yuugi?

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    Senior Member Melanie's Avatar
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    I like to stop by and say stuff even though I have nothing to say until I read the story. I will say that this thread has become a rich source of interesting historical facts. Thanks!

    Wallace Chung

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suzaku View Post
    Queen Manduhai is one of my favorite historical characters in history. She sacrificed everything, including the man she loved, to protect a dying empire. Although historians mark the end of the Yuan Dynasty at the point where the Mongolians left inner China, many Mongolians did not recognize that as the end of the dynasty – to them they were merely in exile and will reclaim their power over China one day. Like the sentiments of people in Southern Song era that dreamed of reclaiming their lost land in Northern Song era.

    To protect the dynasty and legacy of Genghis Khan, Queen Manduhai married the final descendant of Genghis Khan, protected him, raised him, taught him, and forged an empire with him. Queen Manduhai chose the title Dayan Khan (Great Khan of Great Yuan) for the child khan (who was 8 years old at the time), and led a series of military campaigns, which reunited the Mongolian empire. Instead of keeping Dayan Khan as a puppet, Queen Manduhai remained loyal to Dayan Khan and taught him everything about war and ruling as Khan.

    Manduhai’s story begins when was sixteen and married Manduul Khan (who was 25 years older than her). Manduul Khan was one of the few descendants of Genghis Khan. At the time, there were only two other member of the Borijin clan, the “Golden Prince,” a descendant of Genghis, and Une-Bolod descendant of Khasar (Genghis’s brother).

    Manduul Khan had no sons of his own and named the Golden Prince as his heir. Ismayil, one of the warlords, instigated a conspiracy and spread rumors about an affair between the Golden Prince and Manduul Khan’s first wife, Yeke Qabartu. The end result was the death of Manduul Khan, the disappearance of Yeke Qabartu, and the Golden Prince fleeing, leaving behind his wife and male child (Batu Mongke aka Dayan Khan). The Golden Prince later met his demise at the hands of bandits.
    Because of the death of both the Khan and the heir, Manduhai found herself to be a widowed queen whose hand in marriage will provide anyone with legitimacy to declare himself Khan. (It is Mongolian tradition for the succeeding Khan to take the dead Khan’s wife and herd as his own.) At the time, Manduhai could have chosen to married Ismayil or Une-Bolod (a general under the dead Manduul Khan) and continue living peacefully as Queen or taken Batu Mongke (the Golden Prince’s child) and surrendered to the Ming Dynasty.

    Instead, Manduhai married Batu Mongke (the Golden Prince’s child) and declared him as Dayan Khan. Dayan Khan was 8 years old. In doing so, she rejected the marriage proposal from Une-Bolod, the man whom she was rumored to love. Although Une-Bolod was rejected, he remained loyal to Queen Manduhai and Dayan Khan.

    Queen Manduhai had the military support of her supposed lover Une-Bolod, but she really had no land under her influence. The late Manduul Khan was a puppet under the control of one southern warlord, Beg-Arslan. So both Manduul Khan and Queen Manduhai were really only Khan and Khanate in name; hence, Queen Manduhai must win her own land on the battleground. After she declared Dayan Khan as Khan of Yuan, she took to the battlefield and defeated the Oirat – thereby reuniting the east and west.

    Dayan Khan was abandoned by his own father and he was tossed from person to person across the desert before Queen Manduhai rescued him. So it was said that Dayan Khan was so weak and sick at first that he wasn’t able to ride a horse – Queen Manduhai fashioned a basket like contraption to hold Dayan Kahn and rode with him into battle. Probably this was Queen Manduhai’s promise to Dayan Khan that they will live and die together, whatever the circumstances.

    And for the next thirty five years, Queen Manduhai and Dayan Khan fought by each other side and defeated Beg-Arslan, a major warlord south of the Gobi, and Ismayil. (Queen Manduhai was also fought several campaigns when she was pregnant with Dayan Khan’s child.) With Ismayil dead, Dayan Khan avenged his father and rescued his mother who became Ismayil’s wife.

    Against the backdrop where child khans were kept as puppets and rose and fell faster than chroniclers can keep track of, it only exemplifies the loyalty that Queen Manduhai has towards Dayan Khan and Yuan. After Queen Manduhai gave birth to her first son, she could have disposed of Dayan Khan, named their son as Khan, and continue to rule, but she remained loyal to Dayan Khan.

    From a distant corner north of the Gobi Desert, they built an empire that stretched from the Siberian tundra in the north, across the Gobi, to the edge of the Yellow River and south of it into the Ordos. The lands extended from the forests of Manchuria in the East past the Altai Mountains and out onto the steppes of Central Asia. (according to Wiki). They brought a new level of unity and structure to Mongolia and arguably brought post Yuan to its greatest heights after leaving mainland China.

    Didn’t mean to go on and on, but as I said I really heart Queen Manduhai. After the death of Manduul Khan, Manduhai was without a husband, without land, and without any men loyal to her – against all these odds she displayed immense courage and wisdom and remained loyal to the last remnants of the Yuan Empire, saved it from imminent destruction, and restored it to new heights.
    Thanks for the detailed summary, Suzaku. It is amazing how strong a woman can be when she needs to. I guess not being Chinese also helps as there are no restraints from Confucian teaching. But that however, does not make her feats and sacrifices less brilliant. Truly a remarkable woman - Queen Manduhai. Glad to know more about her. Just wondering, do you how she died?
    "Better to write for yourself and have no public, than to write for the public and have no self."
    Cyril Connolly

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melanie View Post
    I like to stop by and say stuff even though I have nothing to say until I read the story. I will say that this thread has become a rich source of interesting historical facts. Thanks!

    Wallace Chung


    Tweety's not happy, Mel! You know why!
    "Better to write for yourself and have no public, than to write for the public and have no self."
    Cyril Connolly

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    Quote Originally Posted by charbydis View Post


    Tweety's not happy, Mel! You know why!
    Why is tweety not happy?

  16. #176
    Senior Member Melanie's Avatar
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    Haha! I nearly choked on my water when I read the last two posts by charby and tweety! Tweety, charby is inferring that my post about "stopping by and saying inane stuff even though I have nothing to say" refers to you! I swear, I had no intention of making fun of tweety when I posted that message. I was referring to myself, not tweety. But it's funny now that charby has pointed it out, because tweety also stops by this thread and posts random stuff. Group hug, girls! I love you two!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melanie View Post
    Tweety, charby is inferring that my post about "stopping by and saying inane stuff even though I have nothing to say" refers to you!

    LOL!!! OMG, I totally DID NOT link the 2 statements together!
    But it's SOOOO true! I feel so guilty and ashamed now
    Last edited by tweety365; 09-19-11 at 08:06 PM.

  18. #178
    Senior Member Melanie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tweety365 View Post
    LOL!!! OMG, I totally DID NOT link the 2 statements together!
    Yea, trust charby to immediately pick up on the similarities of our posts and make a joke out of it.

    But it's SOOOO true! I feel so guilty and ashamed now
    I don't feel guilty about spamming charby's thread at all. I like hanging out here, annoying her. She's lucky I'm too lazy to upload a bunch of Wallace Chung pics, or else I would be spamming her thread with his pics just to get a reaction out of her. How juvenile of me, right?

  19. #179
    Senior Member tweety365's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melanie View Post
    I don't feel guilty about spamming charby's thread at all. I like hanging out here, annoying her. She's lucky I'm too lazy to upload a bunch of Wallace Chung pics, or else I would be spamming her thread with his pics just to get a reaction out of her. How juvenile of me, right?
    Careful there, Mel. She might go spam your profile with Mr. Bean again since SS banned her fugly pics in the Random Group threads.

  20. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by tweety365 View Post
    Careful there, Mel. She might go spam your profile with Mr. Bean again since SS banned her fugly pics in the Random Group threads.
    Nooooo! Mr Bean scares me! Who in the world is Mr Bean, anyway? Is he some comedian from Australia?

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