Best Fighter in Each Novel

[devilz91]

The best fighter in each novel is often ambiguous and unclear, with the exception of Sweeper Monk being the best in DGSD and Shi Potian being the best in OTG, who do you think is the best in each respective novel? They have to appear in the novel to count, so no WCY for LOCH or YCZ for DOMD etc. Here are some candidates, you can add someone if you think I missed them.

LOCH - Ouyang Feng/Zhou Botong
ROCH - Guo Jing/Yang Guo*
HSDS - Zhang Sanfeng/Zhang Wuji
SPW - Dongfang Bubai/Feng Qingyang
BXJ - Mu Renqing/Yuan Chengzhi
DOMD - Gui Xinshu/Jiunan/He Tishou/Hong Antong
ADS - Di Yun/Ding Dian
B&S - Yuan Shixiao/Tianhong/Tianjing/Afanti
FHWZ/XSFH - Hu Fei/Miao Renfeng/Chen Jialuo

*It is not necessarily my intention to bring up this debate again.

[PJ]

For FLYING FOX, I believe Chen Jialuo was clearly superior to Hu Fei, so there's no need to put Hu Fei and Miao Renfeng alongside Chen.

[tape]

For SPW, I have a feeling DFBB is above FQY, but I don't have anything to back it up.

It's mainly from RWX's opinions, and it seems he rates FQY very highly, but not too far off from himself or Fang Zheng. Of course this could be pre-Dugu 9 Jian FQY, but I'd think it's more of a beginner-intermediate level DG9J instead, and FQY simply isn't tremendously talented and did not have very good chance encounters so he did not progress as fast as LHC or DFBB would.

DFBB on the other hand is leagues above RWX. His exhibited skill was just ridiculous.

[devilz91]

For FLYING FOX, I believe Chen Jialuo was clearly superior to Hu Fei, so there's no need to put Hu Fei and Miao Renfeng alongside Chen.

Is this conclusive? Been a while since I read this novel. IIRC Hu Fei is close to Wuchen, and Wuchen was close to CJL in B&S.

[devilz91]

For SPW, I have a feeling DFBB is above FQY, but I don't have anything to back it up.

I think they are close, but I would have to give it to DFBB because he's much too fast.

DFBB on the other hand is leagues above RWX. His exhibited skill was just ridiculous.

How much of this would be due to his speed? I know he has strong internal too because he was able to make LHC numb, but it was stated that speed was the primary factor in the battle. If he is so fast that he can just run circles around you there's not much you can do to win. But in a pure contest of internal I'm not sure if DFBB should be so far ahead of everyone else.

[tape]

Well they were all panting and sweaty while DFBB was completely fine and composed, and I think that's an indication of inner power. I agree that speed doesn't correlate with inner power exactly, but the fact that he was blocking and attacking 5x more than them, while running around, and STILL not breaking a sweat while they were is an indication of inner power to me.

And also, RWX is an incredibly smart man and fighter, but it was obvious that if he were to 1v1 DFBB, it would be over in a few stances. Whether you attribute it to speed or inner power, the fact that he can dominate him so badly just puts him leagues above him. Even if he had only comparable inner power, I don't think it should actually matter, since he utilized it best.

[devilz91]

Those are some good points you made. I agree that DFBB is much ahead of RWX. I can't help but feel though that end of novel LHC would have some sort of chance, having increased his internal and the experience of fighting LPZ and YBQ. Also wonder if Taiji would be a better technique to use against KHBD.

[devilz91]

Anyway here's who I'd vote for for each novel:

LOCH - Zhou Botong; OYF should only be marginally better than other Greats, and extrapolation to ROCH has OYF = H7G while ZBT should IMO be better than both pre-16 years
ROCH - Guo Jing;
HSDS - Zhang Sanfeng; He's the "Real Man"
SPW - Dongfang Bubai; DFBB and FQY should be close, but DFBB should be too fast for him
BXJ - Mu Renqing; Wild guess, MRQ should have better internal although YCZ may have better technique
DOMD - Jiunan; JN slightly over GXS as it is suggested that only YCZ can beat her
ADS - Ding Dian; They are close enough that in a straight up fight DD should win as I think he is more experienced.
B&S - Tianhong; Tianjing feels more impressive than YSX and Tianhong should at least be as good as Tianjing, while YSX is faster than Afanti
FHWZ/XSFH - Chen Jialuo; Feels more impressive than HF or MRF

[tape]

Are we ranking the best fighter in terms of who would win in a fight, or who you feel is overall stronger?

Ouyang Feng in LOCH for example, would likely defeat anyone in their first encounter after he started to get all weird. After the first couple fights though, he'd likely regress back to their level.

ZBT is overall stronger imo, but I too think he would technically lose in a Huashan type duel.

However, Ouyang Feng keeping his Soft Serpent Fists a secret was precisely for this reason. He knew once they saw it, they could counter it, but he would likely win their first duels and be crowned world's best. It seems like a completely accepted strategy, (same as Hong Qigong saving Dog Beating Stick) so I think OYF would deserve the spot of best in LOCH if there was a duel to decide it.

[goodrick]

DGSD - Sweeper Monk
LOCH - Huang Yaoshi
ROCH - Guo Jing
HSDS - Zhang Wuji
SPW - Dongfang Bubai

[PJ]

Is this conclusive? Been a while since I read this novel. IIRC Hu Fei is close to Wuchen, and Wuchen was close to CJL in B&S.

Hu Fei exchanged a few moves with Chen Jialuo. Chen easily outclassed Hu.

胡斐更不打话，纵身跃起，左
拳便向福康安面门打去。这一拳乃是虚势，不待福康安伸臂挡架，右手五指成虎爪之形，
拿向他的胸口。他知道如果一击不中，福康安左右卫士立时便会出手，因此这一拿既快且
准，有如星驰电掣，实是他生平武学的力作，料想福康安身旁的卫士本事再高，也决计不
及抢上来化解这一招迅雷不及掩耳的虎爪擒拿。福康安“噫”的一声，径不理会他的左拳
，右手食指和中指陡然伸出，成剪刀之形，点向他右腕的“会宗穴”和“阳池穴”，出手
之快，指法之奇，胡斐生平从所未见。在这电光石火般的一瞬之间，胡斐心头猛地一震，
立即变招，五指一勾，便去抓他两根点穴的手指，只消抓住了一扭，非教他指骨折断不可
。岂知福康安武功俊极，竟不缩手，其余三根手指一伸，翻成掌形，手臂不动，掌力已吐
。凡是伸拳发掌，必先后缩，才行出击，但福康安这一掌手臂已伸在外，竟不弯臂，掌力
便即送出，招数固是奇幻之极，内力亦是雄浑无比。胡斐大骇，这时身当虚空，无法借力
，当下左掌急拍，砰的一响，和福康安双掌相交，刹那间只感胸口气血翻腾，借势向后飘
出两丈有余。他吸一口气，吐一口气，便在半空之中，气息已然调匀，轻飘飘的落在地下
，仍是神完气足，稳稳站定。只听得八九个声音齐声喝彩：“好！”看那福康安时，但见
他身子微微一晃，随即坐稳，脸上闪过一丝惊讶，立时又回复了先前郁郁寡欢的神气。胡
斐自纵身出击至飘身落地，当真只是一霎眼间，可是这中间两人虚招、擒拿、点穴、扭指
、吐掌、拚力、跃退、调息，实已交换了七八式最精深的武学变化。相较之下虽是胜败未
分，但一个出全力以搏击，一个随手挥送，潇洒自如，胡斐显已输了一筹。

[devilz91]

Are we ranking the best fighter in terms of who would win in a fight, or who you feel is overall stronger?

Ouyang Feng in LOCH for example, would likely defeat anyone in their first encounter after he started to get all weird. After the first couple fights though, he'd likely regress back to their level.

ZBT is overall stronger imo, but I too think he would technically lose in a Huashan type duel.

However, Ouyang Feng keeping his Soft Serpent Fists a secret was precisely for this reason. He knew once they saw it, they could counter it, but he would likely win their first duels and be crowned world's best. It seems like a completely accepted strategy, (same as Hong Qigong saving Dog Beating Stick) so I think OYF would deserve the spot of best in LOCH if there was a duel to decide it.

I was ranking in terms of who's overall stronger. I dunno if ZBT would lose against OYF or not, I still give the edge to ZBT slightly. Maybe in one fight he would lose, but he should win if it was best of 3 or more.

[devilz91]

Hu Fei exchanged a few moves with Chen Jialuo. Chen easily outclassed Hu.

So he evidently got better between B&S and the time that battle took place. Do you think he surpassed Yuan Shixiao and the other B&S "Elites"? Also how would you rank Hu Fei, Hu Yidao, and Miao Renfeng?

[Banh Mi]

For SPW, I have a feeling DFBB is above FQY, but I don't have anything to back it up.

It's mainly from RWX's opinions, and it seems he rates FQY very highly, but not too far off from himself or Fang Zheng. Of course this could be pre-Dugu 9 Jian FQY, but I'd think it's more of a beginner-intermediate level DG9J instead, and FQY simply isn't tremendously talented and did not have very good chance encounters so he did not progress as fast as LHC or DFBB would.

DFBB on the other hand is leagues above RWX. His exhibited skill was just ridiculous.

I don't think RWX's estimation should be regarded as very accurate. For one, he misassessed the capabilities of DFBB twice. I don't think he knows anything about FCY, just that he was a powerful figure. Did they ever meet? How do we know FCY isn't tremendously talented? Isn't being able to comprehend DG9J alone an amazing feat?
On the other hand, I think FQY's understanding of sword arts is at a much deeper level than LHC. He didn't have time to teach him about the more advanced parts of palm and energy breaking stance.
FQY should be a world apart from LHC in terms of abilities, you can't really make someone comparable to yourself within the space of days of personal instruction and some months of application.
LHC was able to somewhat defend against DFBB and during the fight come upon some insights of how to deal with it better. I think FQY would already know how to deal with DFBB's particular gimmick when he sees it.

[PJ]

So he evidently got better between B&S and the time that battle took place. Do you think he surpassed Yuan Shixiao and the other B&S "Elites"? Also how would you rank Hu Fei, Hu Yidao, and Miao Renfeng?

I have no idea. I never read those books in full, just knew a few passages including this one.

Just to speculate, it was said that when Hu Fei fought Wuchen, his execution of Hu Family Sabre had about the same effect as Hu Yidao himself executing it. So he was around Hu Yidao's level already. Later, in the finale of SNOWY MOUNTAIN, when Hu Fei fought Miao Renfeng, Hu was as good as Miao. This was 20+ years after Hu Yidao died, so Miao Renfeng should have improved a lot. So at the end of novel, Hu Fei and Miao Renfeng should both be better than Hu Yidao.

To be honest, Chen Jialuo's moves up there (changing the type of move in middle of an execution without retracting hand) reminded me of Jiumozhi's dominance over Murong Fu, and Gongsun Zhi's first fight with Yang Guo. It seems technique-wise, Qing dynasty fighters may be comparable to Song dynasty, it's just that their internal energy is far inferior.

For example, in DOMD, Zen Master Chengguan/Dengguan said that his mastery of the Solitary Zen Finger was one of the best in the history of Shaolin, but that his internal energy level was far behind those ancestors whose mastery was inferior.

[tape]

I don't think RWX's estimation should be regarded as very accurate. For one, he misassessed the capabilities of DFBB twice. I don't think he knows anything about FCY, just that he was a powerful figure. Did they ever meet? How do we know FCY isn't tremendously talented? Isn't being able to comprehend DG9J alone an amazing feat?
On the other hand, I think FQY's understanding of sword arts is at a much deeper level than LHC. He didn't have time to teach him about the more advanced parts of palm and energy breaking stance.
FQY should be a world apart from LHC in terms of abilities, you can't really make someone comparable to yourself within the space of days of personal instruction and some months of application.
LHC was able to somewhat defend against DFBB and during the fight come upon some insights of how to deal with it better. I think FQY would already know how to deal with DFBB's particular gimmick when he sees it.

I only think FQY wasn't tremendously talented because LHC memorized the general index in a couple nights, while FQY took something like three months? I don't remember exactly, but it was around that neighborhood. I think LHC is a pretty good talent, but not one of the supreme talents like Xiao Feng or even Yang Guo. To lag that far behind LHC I would classify FQY as somewhat good-average.

FQY also stated that he met very few powerful people in his life, like one or two. For a sword art that kind of scales and improves towards your opponent, it is exceptionally important to meet strong adversaries. It seemed like LHC experienced all of wulin within a short time span, and along with his inherently greater talent, likely learned at a rate exponentially faster than FAQ. Guo Jing reached 70% of Greats in a similar span, so reaching 80% or more is not totally out of the question.

Of course FQY's overall understanding is still much deeper than LHC's, but given the fluidity of DG9J and the points mentioned above, it might not be all THAT important. DFBB just seemed more impressive, just personal opinion.

[CancerLuna]

I only think FQY wasn't tremendously talented because LHC memorized the general index in a couple nights, while FQY took something like three months? I don't remember exactly, but it was around that neighborhood. I think LHC is a pretty good talent, but not one of the supreme talents like Xiao Feng or even Yang Guo. To lag that far behind LHC I would classify FQY as somewhat good-average.

FQY also stated that he met very few powerful people in his life, like one or two. For a sword art that kind of scales and improves towards your opponent, it is exceptionally important to meet strong adversaries. It seemed like LHC experienced all of wulin within a short time span, and along with his inherently greater talent, likely learned at a rate exponentially faster than FAQ. Guo Jing reached 70% of Greats in a similar span, so reaching 80% or more is not totally out of the question.

Of course FQY's overall understanding is still much deeper than LHC's, but given the fluidity of DG9J and the points mentioned above, it might not be all THAT important. DFBB just seemed more impressive, just personal opinion.

I think most if not all Jinyong protagonists are supreme talents, with XF of course being top dog.

By the end of SPW, LHC got some yjj IIRC, he had extreme potential to gain more internal. In this regard, I don't believe we see him actually peaking. Not enough info on FQY to determine if he is > DFBB.

Did LHC even learn the last stances of DG9? It seems like those stances would exponentially increase his power.

[devilz91]

I have no idea. I never read those books in full, just knew a few passages including this one.

Just to speculate, it was said that when Hu Fei fought Wuchen, his execution of Hu Family Sabre had about the same effect as Hu Yidao himself executing it. So he was around Hu Yidao's level already. Later, in the finale of SNOWY MOUNTAIN, when Hu Fei fought Miao Renfeng, Hu was as good as Miao. This was 20+ years after Hu Yidao died, so Miao Renfeng should have improved a lot. So at the end of novel, Hu Fei and Miao Renfeng should both be better than Hu Yidao.

To be honest, Chen Jialuo's moves up there (changing the type of move in middle of an execution without retracting hand) reminded me of Jiumozhi's dominance over Murong Fu, and Gongsun Zhi's first fight with Yang Guo. It seems technique-wise, Qing dynasty fighters may be comparable to Song dynasty, it's just that their internal energy is far inferior.

For example, in DOMD, Zen Master Chengguan/Dengguan said that his mastery of the Solitary Zen Finger was one of the best in the history of Shaolin, but that his internal energy level was far behind those ancestors whose mastery was inferior.

This is interesting stuff, thanks.

[devilz91]

I think most if not all Jinyong protagonists are supreme talents, with XF of course being top dog.

By the end of SPW, LHC got some yjj IIRC, he had extreme potential to gain more internal. In this regard, I don't believe we see him actually peaking. Not enough info on FQY to determine if he is > DFBB.

Did LHC even learn the last stances of DG9? It seems like those stances would exponentially increase his power.

Yeah, LHC did not reach his peak til the end of the book.

IIRC LHC did not know the last stances of DG9J, but neither did FQY.

Also JY kinda nerfed FQY since the 1st edition. In the 1st edition, FQY was LHC's great-grand teacher (which would make him over 100 years old ) and he was responsible for single-handedly killing the ten elders of Sun-Moon Cult in the cave.

[ChanceEncounter]

Also JY kinda nerfed FQY since the 1st edition. In the 1st edition, FQY was LHC's great-grand teacher (which would make him over 100 years old ) and he was responsible for single-handedly killing the ten elders of Sun-Moon Cult in the cave.

I think part of it is that JY started cutting down on "supernatural" references as much as he could. He didn't care to create too many people 100+ years old with the power to move mountains. That version of FQY would almost certainly have been on the same level as DFBB, if not superior.

As it stands, we know JY claims that DG9J > Sunflower. I suspect the actual level of DFBB and FQY is probably fairly close.