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Thread: What really is the rationale for Zhang Sanfeng > Zhang Wuji?

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    Default What really is the rationale for Zhang Sanfeng > Zhang Wuji?

    Was really Zhang Sanfeng > Zhang Wuji?
    Wuji had mastered Jiuyang Zhenjing and Qian Kun Da Nuo Yi which were considered to be the best and the toughest martial arts to practice. Was Zhang Sanfeng still more powerful than Wuji? What is the rationale behind that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by onlyone View Post
    Was really Zhang Sanfeng > Zhang Wuji?
    Wuji had mastered Jiuyang Zhenjing and Qian Kun Da Nuo Yi which were considered to be the best and the toughest martial arts to practice. Was Zhang Sanfeng still more powerful than Wuji? What is the rationale behind that?
    I don't really understand it either. I always felt that ZWJ had surpassed ZSF

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    Senior Member goodrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remixedasian View Post
    I don't really understand it either. I always felt that ZWJ had surpassed ZSF
    My understanding was that they were equals, no?

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    I think ZWJ's internal was =~ Z3F. Z3F seemed to have the purer internal.

    He'd also have experience under his belt. Only advantage I'd give ZWJ is youth, otherwise he's outmatched.

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    Because he's the REAL man.

    And he is ≈ Guo Jing, and Guo Jing ≥ Zhang Wuji by consensus.

    And if you ask JY who would win, he would vote for Zhang Sanfeng cus he loves his historical characters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by onlyone View Post
    Was really Zhang Sanfeng > Zhang Wuji?
    Wuji had mastered Jiuyang Zhenjing and Qian Kun Da Nuo Yi which were considered to be the best and the toughest martial arts to practice. Was Zhang Sanfeng still more powerful than Wuji? What is the rationale behind that?
    QKDNY is an inferior art compared to most Central Plains martial arts, and from ZSF's pride over his Taiji, Taji should be one of the best arts Central Plains has to offer up at that point.

    Wuji has shown time and time again he lacks fighting instincts developed through battle experience. He is considered a poor fighter by most people, while ZSF is toted as the best martial artist and has shown his natural fighting instincts as a youth and through his development of Wudang martial arts. Wuji simply has nothing on ZSF except youth so it's all in if you believe that is enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    QKDNY is an inferior art compared to most Central Plains martial arts, and from ZSF's pride over his Taiji, Taji should be one of the best arts Central Plains has to offer up at that point.
    Where was this stated?

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    It was stated that QKDNY was inferior to the Huashan Liangyi swordplay and that didn't seem to be particularly elite especially compared to Taiji.

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    Bear in mind that for ZSF, he used 9Yang as a base and created his own style. Whether the original was better is hard to say, although only the original 9Yang could save ZWJ from the Xuanming palm.

    In the translated version of HSDS, QKDNY was created by the old man of the mountain. The wugong was very "weird" but is said to be the best from the western plains. Hi Tape, do you know which chapter this Huashan Liangyi swordplay and QKDNY came from? I must have skimmed through that part.

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Wudang Taiji > Emei Sixiang > Liangyi > Qiankun Danuoyi ==> in theory.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleBelly View Post
    Bear in mind that for ZSF, he used 9Yang as a base and created his own style. Whether the original was better is hard to say, although only the original 9Yang could save ZWJ from the Xuanming palm.

    In the translated version of HSDS, QKDNY was created by the old man of the mountain. The wugong was very "weird" but is said to be the best from the western plains. Hi Tape, do you know which chapter this Huashan Liangyi swordplay and QKDNY came from? I must have skimmed through that part.
    Though the exact words aren't that, it is found in the fight between Wuji and the Huashan duo/Kunlun couple.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    Though the exact words aren't that, it is found in the fight between Wuji and the Huashan duo/Kunlun couple.
    I'll have to check it out for the exact Chinese words. Either way, if true, the results don't seem to bear this out. YX got a leg up just by learning the very basics, YDT was one of the best of the novel by learning the 4th level, and obviously ZWJ was either the best or the second best fighter in the novel by training up to the sixth.

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    It's really the 9 Yang that does most of the work in Wuji's case. YX is no better than Yin Tianzheng, YDT is speculated to not be much if any better than a Du monk and he reached a pretty high level 4. Considering the inner power requirement to learn it, all these people would be powerhouses even without it. It's kind of rigged in that you have to be powerful in order to learn it, so of course the list of people who learned it are going to be powerful.
    Last edited by tape; 03-09-11 at 09:33 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    QKDNY is an inferior art compared to most Central Plains martial arts, and from ZSF's pride over his Taiji, Taji should be one of the best arts Central Plains has to offer up at that point.

    Wuji has shown time and time again he lacks fighting instincts developed through battle experience. He is considered a poor fighter by most people, while ZSF is toted as the best martial artist and has shown his natural fighting instincts as a youth and through his development of Wudang martial arts. Wuji simply has nothing on ZSF except youth so it's all in if you believe that is enough.
    ZWJ grew up in a remote island, childhood is the foundation to a persons personality for the rest of your life. He grew up unaware of worldly matters and was showered with love from his parents and god-father so I don't think killing is something he would do. In HSDS 2003 although he wanted to kill his Xie Xun's master at first ZWJ couldn't bare to do that in the end.

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    I have no problems with his character or wonder why it would negatively affect his fighting performance, because it obviously does. It still doesn't change the fact that his pleasant nature affects his fighting abilities, and when compared to other characters, he seems lacking. It would actually be strange if he wound up with equal or better fighting instincts/abilities, since he was in such different circumstances.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChanceEncounter View Post
    I'll have to check it out for the exact Chinese words. Either way, if true, the results don't seem to bear this out. YX got a leg up just by learning the very basics, YDT was one of the best of the novel by learning the 4th level, and obviously ZWJ was either the best or the second best fighter in the novel by training up to the sixth.
    I can't help with the exact Chinese text, but looking at the translated text, I think these are the relevant sections:

    The four fighters might be thoroughly pissed at each other, but with Xi HuaZi out of the way, their sword and saber combination can now execute flawlessly. Now the formation matched the strength of eight top fighters, their techniques unrivaled in variations and delicacy. For when the top kung fu theories of the central plains meets the top theories of the Xi Yu, one can see that the central plains kung fu theories are much more refined. It’s just that the Hua Shan and Kun Lun experts can only utilize twenty to thirty percent of their true potential; otherwise Zhang WuJi would’ve long been dead...

    ...E Mei’s Master Mie Jue said to her disciples, “This youngster’s kung fu is very strange, but the four fighters of Kun Lun and Hua Shan have trapped him in terms of techniques. Our righteous kung fu of central plains are broad and deep, much better than the devilish Xi Yu kung fu."

    I definitely felt Miejue's statement that "our righteous kung fu of central plains are broad and deep, much better than the devilish Xi Yu kung fu" might have been ever-so-slightly coloured by personal prejudice and dogmatism. But the narrator says something similar, too. I truly don't know whether the disjoint between Miejue's and the narrator's comments and what is described (the "devilish Xi Yu kung fu" actually giving a decent account of itself: there's no doubt that if the Kunlun and Huashan experts can crank out 100% of their formation's potential, Wuji is dead; but for a lone kid with practically zero battle experience and not a great deal of fighting instinct, armed only with a plum branch, to hold off the combined and complementary Kunlun and Huashan sword and sabre formation, executed by four pugilists who are either the top experts - He Taichong and Ban Shuxian - or close to the top of both sects!) is deliberate.

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