Would Yang Guo have been better off without XLN?

[kidd]

It's never stated in the novel that GJ/HR gave him the 9-yin manual. And it's never stated whether or not 9 Yin Bai Gu Zhua is on the Ancient Tomb walls.

However, I would think it unlikely that 9Yin Bai Gu Zhua is on the walls of the Ancient Tomb, so I agreed with tape that Jin Yong had some inconsistency in how Yellow Lady learned 9 Yin Bai Gu Zhua to defeat Zhou Zhiruo. It is tape's hypothesis in the lack of such evidence, that there was an exchange of 9-Yin and the Heavy Iron Sword. I agree with you that there is inconsistency, but for a different reason. (In fact there would be no inconsistency if 9 Yin Bai Gu Zhua WERE on the Ancient Tomb walls)

What about the Heaven Iron Sword that was turned into Heaven Sword and Dragon Sabre?

[devilz91]

4. Whether or not YG is doing good deeds is not for sure, I hope he was. All we know is that he disappeared from what back then was considered China proper, at least as far as Guo Xiang and everyone she asked could tell.
Whether or not he comes back to XY is also uncertain, and we lack any evidence that he returned.

5. This is another change from 3rd edition, which I haven't read. Is it mentioned when this reforging took place or how GJ/HR got the Gentleman/Lady swords?

I do want to take issue with you here, because I would want to know why GJ would pass 9 Yin, but not Wumu to Yang Guo?
(Suppose he did pass both to YG, why didn't YG or his descendants do anything with them? Did they pass it on to totally inept people? And why would they continue with the whole hiding the manuals in the swords, if YG was given both 9 Yin and Wumu?)

6. But then, why would GJ/HR entrust someone to deliver the Heaven Sword containing 9Yin to GX, rather than have YG deliver it?
And why wouldn't they tell GX to stop looking for YG?
Also, GX knows about Tulong Saber as well in the novel, and searched for it afterwards. If this is the case, then GJ/HR must have sent someone extremely loyal and capable to deliver the message to GX, since it basically tells her everything about Tulong and Heaven Sword.

7. Xiangyang falls. Do you think YG was there? If he died there, how do his descendants know about 9Yin and the swords secrets? And if he did die at XY, why isn't he universally praised just like GJ for it? That would be pretty selective for everyone to call GJ a hero for sacrificing at XY, but totally ignore YG's sacrifice.

4. It is the most logical conclusion. There is plenty of evidence scattered over this thread which you seem to have ignored. Your only argument against it seems to be "then why didn't GX hear about it?" which is hardly valid.

5. It is not directly stated where they got it, but it belongs to YG and XLN so obviously they either gave it to them personally or via an intermediary. And since the weapons were forged to protect their legacy, it must have been forged when Xiangyang was about to fall. And if YG/XLN gave them the swords around that time, it is only logical that they would have been there.

At the very least we know he passed 9 Yin, since Lady Yang knows it. And the White Bone Claw definitely wasn't in the tomb (you don't actually think such a technique would be more profound than anything WCY could come up with and defeat Lin Chaoying's Jade Maiden?)

6. YG would never want to see GX again, nothing good can come out of it. The sooner she forgets him the better. Knowing that Xiangyang was about to fall, if they actually told her that YG was in Xiangyang, wouldn't that be sending their own daughter to her grave? A much more viable solution is to pass the HS to GX and preserve their legacy, and hiding the location of the manuals inside a weapon which only a select few know the secret to is the best way to ensure it does not end up in the wrong hands.

7. He should have been there. It would not make any sense for him to ignore GJ/HR's requests for assistance. Assuming that YG and XLN conceived shortly after ROCH (XLN was in her early 40s after all), then their child would have been about 13 and be old enough to learn martial arts and the secrets. That child probably stayed in the tomb instead of Xiangyang.

It would be unfair to praise him equally to GJ because GJ has spent few decades more time defending XY than YG did. It would not be ignoring YG's sacrifice, only that his sacrifice does not deserve the same amount of recognition as GJ. However, he is still recognized for his greatest accomplishment, which is slaying the Khan.

[remixedasian]

So you are saying that YG was at Xiangyang at its fall? This is a pretty bold claim.

If YG/XLN were there at Xiangyang's fall, why would GJ/HR make the swords in the first place to hide the manuals, since they can just pass it on to YG and XLN?
Surely they all realized YG/XLN weren't enough to turn the tide, and would have made them go find someone worthy for Yue Fei's manual, while GJ/HR held Xiang Yang for as long as possible.

You say that they made the swords and hid the manuals right when XY was about to fall...

You also claimed that Lady Yang knew about the secret of the weapons...which means YG must have passed the secret on to his kids right?
Now...how would he pass this on to his child, who is off in some distant place?

Did YG leave XY to go tell his kid about the secret and somehow rushed back in time to die at Xiangyang? Did he send a message with the full secret about the weapons, knowing that it could be intercepted and their plan would be doomed (if Yue Fei's manual fell to the Mongols...), just to let his 13 year old kid know?

Seems like for your claims to work, we would need two incredible capable messengers who can break through the Mongol lines and were trustworthy enough to bear the full secret of the weapons: 1 to YG's kid and 1 to Guo Xiang. Look, if they had such capable messengers, why not just safely send the manuals themselves to YG's kid or GX?

5.
Regarding White Bone Claw, it was obviously profound enough that Huang Shang wrote it down in 9Yin. Perhaps some moves were used to defeat a move of Lin Chaoying's Jade Maiden. In the hands of WCY, it would definitely be more powerful than MCF's, who was obviously learning it incorrectly.

We know that 'Demon Subduing Fist' was profound enough to beat some of LCY's techniques and make it onto the wall. Why not White Bone Claw? YG seemed to have learned lots of techniques from that wall...maybe WBC is one of them. You argue that the techniques would have to be more profound than anything WCY came up with, but that's not the case. WCY poured his skill into crafting Quanzhen kungfu. LYC tailored Jade Maiden specifically to beat Quanzhen. WCY, then, using Quanzhen, would not be able to defeat all of Jade Maiden by himself, and would have to rely on other techniques.

Yang Guo was upset since even with one arm the Old Urchin was not easy to defeat. The ‘yang’ness in Zhou's fist and palms gradually surfaced. This type of energy was opposite to Zhou Botong’s ‘yin’ energy of the “Vacant Fist” technique. Yang Guo noticed the change and suddenly recognized the “Demon Subduing Fist” of the “Nine Yin Manual” in the tomb. Yang Guo shouted, “What’s so special about the 'Demon Subduing Fist'?

The ‘Nine Yin Manual’ contained all kinds of martial arts techniques; therefore, it was more than enough for Yang Guo to defend himself. If Yang Guo wanted to defeat Zhou Botong, it would be no easy task; but now that he’s just concentrating on defending, Zhou was not able to do anything to him.

“Is that stance based on the “Soul Altering Spell” from the ‘Nine Yin Manual’?” asked Zhou Botong.

6. You ignore Guo Xiang's 20+ years searching, WuSe, and all the places and people who would have seen/heard about YG, especially if he is helping out Beggar Clan and Xiang Yang. Logically, Yang Guo wouldn't be able to evade GX for that long and still manage to do all these great deeds.

And if YG died (and XLN would have died with him, unless you think XLN let YG go fight by himself), do you honestly think that a 13-year old would be able to master 9-Yin by him or herself, especially if YG and XLN were off doing valiant deeds during his/her entire childhood, like you claim?

Oh, and the kid would also have to be able to provide for himself in a tomb, and somehow maintain connections with Beggar Clan, but also be dumb enough not to search for Tulong Sabre and Yitian Sword(which he would know is with Guo Xiang) even though those two things can make or break Sung's defense.

[kidd]

That's a good question actually; what if Yang Guo felt strictly sisterly affection for Xiaolongnu, and vice versa?

Being who he is, Yang Guo is going to fall for someone at some point; maybe Guo Fu (!!!!!); Lu Wushang is another possible; or maybe Cheng Ying. The story of his life is probably going to be driven by who he falls for.

If he falls for Guo Fu it's likely he'll end up as Guo Jing's son-in-law and quite likely the Beggar Clan leader as well (as his buddy Yelu Qi did). From that point on it's pretty likely some of you will get your wish: he'll probably end up being more of an orthodox Confucian "hero", and end up perishing heroically in Xiangyang beside his father and mother-in-law.

It'd be funny, though, to imagine an alternate scenario in which, after Guo Jing forces Guo Fu to marry Yang Guo, there's a big marital spat between the two which ends up with Yang Guo's arm getting chopped off and him deciding to go somewhere peaceful and quiet for a while; at which point he meets Brother Condor, finds the Dugu sword manuals, and comes back as the Condor Hero to save Xiangyang, only to be rewarded by either (a) wedded bliss with Guo Fu who has sweetened up to him in the meantime or (b) another 20 years of domestic strife...

Very funny parody, especially of ending (b) happens.

[jadebunny9]

I wonder how many people read your posts and face palm.

A lot, I'm sure.

He has to be a troll. There's just no other explanation. There's all these posts that have smashed his argument into pieces yet he still keeps coming back with the same stuff. Over and over and over and over and over again. Stop feeding the troll people!

[ChanceEncounter]

Haha I can't believe now you're arguing that YG never retired from jianghu.

No one's arguing anything. My entire argument is that your argument is invalid. I never said that YG continued to do heroic deeds after the novel ended.

I said that we do not know what YG did after the novel ended, which is entirely true.

The logical conclusion would be that he wasn't in Wulin and retired somewhere else, not that he was NEVER retired and was just SECRETLY helping out without drawing any notice to himself. (Surely you need to have some proof to get this head in your idea in the first place?) There's also no evidence he died or was poisoned again (but IF this were true, then I can't blame him for not helping)

Why is this the logical conclusion? Because GX never found him? GX couldn't find him the first time she went looking for him even when everyone and their mother knew the Condor Hero was out and about. You sincerely underestimate how hard it is to find a wanderer. HYS was a wanderer for years and people could only meet up with him sporadically if they were lucky. People who he didn't want to see probably never found him.

As I said, in order for your evidence to be compelling, it must be logically valid. The argument that "Guo Xiang never found him, therefore he wasn't active" is not logically valid. Surely you must understand this.

Another piece of evidence that he retired:

This indicates that he did retire from Jianghu. This does not indicate that he turned his back on wulin. Nor did it indicate the time when he disappeared from jianghu.

People in HSDS talks about how heroic GJ is for standing at Xiangyang. No one ever says anything (to my knowledge) about how Yang Guo fought the Mongols elsewhere after Xiang Yang's fall. (They credit him for killing the Khan tho, deservedly so)

People in HSDS (outside of ZSF) have never met either of them. What's your point?

But seriously, how do you explain Guo Xiang not hearing of Yang Guo's heroic exploits if he were really committing them?

Why don't you try to prove that YG didn't retire from Jianghu, and prove that YG did help when the Mongols invaded.

Again, your idiocy knows no bounds. I would only need to prove that YG didn't retire (a negative, by the way, which is nearly impossible to prove without absolute evidence) and that he helped again (if he was able) if I were using the fact that he did help as a premise of my argument. I'm not, therefore I don't need to. It's about as relevant for me as proving that God exists.

There's plenty of evidence suggesting that YG was still active:

(1) The HIS wound up in GJ/HR's possession. He did not have the HIS for "sixteen years" at the end of ROCH, when he lamented not having the HIS to fight against JLGS. Obviously, this means YG must have went back and retrieved it after the fact.

(2) The Gentleman and Lady sword also wound up in GJ/HR's possession. Both of these weapons must have been bequeathed at a later date.

(3) The 9Yin manual wound up in YG's possession. YG did not have the complete manual carved in the ancient tomb, yet the yellow-dressed lady knew both the white bone claw and the top half, which focuses on the internal. This clearly indicates that YG later gained the entire manual.

Now, I would suggest that it's highly unlikely that YG/GJ executed this exchange through intermediaries. Things like the Wu Mu Yi Shu, 9Yin, the HIS, and the gentleman/lady swords were simply too valuable to be left for your typical messenger. Also consider that the HIS weighed about 70 pounds and it would be exceedingly difficult for a messenger to carry it.

We also know that the heaven sword and dragon saber were likely forged just prior to Xiangyang's fall, and the timeline suggests that YG and GJ must have met shortly prior to this.

We have tons of evidence [concrete] suggesting that YG didn't just fall off the face of the earth. Your evidence is anecdotal, that GX didn't hear of him. Well, I would say that the presence of physical weapons and articles (books and swords) is more substantial than the account of one individual who YG may or may not have been avoiding.

Of course, this has been expressed to you before, but you still go about thinking otherwise.

Your entire argument is faulty because you have no proof YG didn't retire and that he did help out when the Mongols invaded.
In fact, there is evidence to the contrary, that you question just because they contradict your argument.

Again, which argument did I make? Me stating that your argument is invalid does not mean that I'm arguing for the alternative. I'm stating that both are equal possibilities.

If I say that the Christian faith is not logically proven, it does not mean I'm advocating atheism. Clearly, this is going over your head. Anything logical apparently has.

You clearly don't understand that you cannot make an argument on unproven premises. I cannot claim that "since GJ went crazy and killed his family, he's a bad person" because this did not ever happen in the novel. Likewise, your argument that "YG turned his back on wulin" did not happen in the novel, so you cannot make an argument that he is selfish or lacking heroism because of it.

I've gone over this ad nauseum and you completely fail to understand it each and every time. So, I should just repeat myself:

You argue.

You wrong.

You argue anyway.

[tape]

Why is this the logical conclusion? Because GX never found him? GX couldn't find him the first time she went looking for him even when everyone and their mother knew the Condor Hero was out and about. You sincerely underestimate how hard it is to find a wanderer. HYS was a wanderer for years and people could only meet up with him sporadically if they were lucky. People who he didn't want to see probably never found him.

The rest is too long so I admit I didn't read it all...but this is a good point. Yang Guo with much greater skills, social network, and incentive to find Huang Yaoshi wasn't able to speak to him for the whole 16 year period. I'm pretty certain it was stated that he wanted to speak to him and never got a chance to because of HYS's wandering habits.

[ChanceEncounter]

The rest is too long so I admit I didn't read it all...but this is a good point. Yang Guo with much greater skills, social network, and incentive to find Huang Yaoshi wasn't able to speak to him for the whole 16 year period. I'm pretty certain it was stated that he wanted to speak to him and never got a chance to because of HYS's wandering habits.

Remixedasian's problem is that he can't properly interpret a point. He's got it made it up in his mind that something is the way it is, and he'll force the evidence to fit instead of trying to draw rational conclusions from the evidence given. YG is never shown to be a person who shies away from doing the right thing. He may not be the most eager hero, but he almost invariably is willing to do the right thing at the very end. He rescued GF from the flames even after she poisons his wife and chops off his arm, but he let her bake for a little bit.

He makes it sound like YG was sitting there, telling beggars to piss off his lawn when they were running up to him, in tattered rags, screaming, "Help help! I'm being oppressed!"

No such argument exists. Even if YG did retire—which is certainly possible considering that he had been separated from his wife for 16 years and was probably way overdue for starting a family—the evidence is not compelling enough to claim that he did nothing while the country burned around him. There are even indications (e.g. regarding the transfer of swords) that indicates that YG was active well after the end of the ROCH novel. YG was perfectly in his right to retire after killing the khan. His action single-handedly ensured that there would be an era of peace. No one would have faulted him if he decided to go into seclusion and start a family with his wife after sixteen years of absence.

To extend any possible retirement into a claim that YG turned away starving children at his doorstep is just asinine though. I literally cannot comprehend how someone could make such a statement and act like he has enough evidence to support it. The only real explanation is that remixedasian is either too dumb to understand basic logic, a troll, or he has some manic disorder in which he thinks YG must have wronged him in a past life.

[Ken Cheng]

This is going nowhere good. I've had enough. We've all had enough.

Go talk about something else. ALL of you.