Would Yang Guo have been better off without XLN?

[ChanceEncounter]

Princess Fragrance tops her in every category there. But I think she's less unlikeable.

Princess Fragrance tops everyone in just about every category. She's the most ridiculously written character in JY-ology. Thankfully, Jin Yong grew [a little] out of such superlative writing.

[remixedasian]

There were plenty of heroes that suddenly ran away from Jianghu after their escapades were done. You shouldn't single out YG for that.

Maybe, but those were probably more like, "Well, my job here is done...I'll leave the rest to the younger generation"

rather than

"Well, the Mongolians are about to conquer my country...I'll just leave the rest to the older generation while Gu Gu and I waste the rest of our lives staring at each other and hanging out in a tomb with a giant bird"

(or wherever they ended up going to stare into each other's eyes)

[Ken Cheng]

Maybe, but those were probably more like, "Well, my job here is done...I'll leave the rest to the younger generation"

And, they did it with much less "we're too sexy for your wulin" attitude.

[ChanceEncounter]

Maybe, but those were probably more like, "Well, my job here is done...I'll leave the rest to the younger generation"

I wouldn't go so far.

YCZ decided to leave the whole damn country after his little rebellion didn't bear fruit. I'd say that's much worse. ZWJ also left without too much of a "younger generation", he simply grew tired of Jianghu and decided to let ZYZ do the dirty work of overthrowing the Mongols and cleaning house. He basically just said, "f*ck it, I'd rather live in seclusion with my wife and my ambiguously-written mistress."

As I said, it's a very common theme. Only people inherently biased against YG would single him out for it.

[remixedasian]

YCZ decided to leave the whole damn country after his little rebellion didn't bear fruit. ...ZWJ also left without too much of a "younger generation", he simply grew tired of Jianghu and decided to let ZYZ do the dirty work of overthrowing the Mongols and cleaning house. He basically just said, "f*ck it, I'd rather live in seclusion with my wife and my ambiguously-written mistress."

I am biased against YG.
Regarding YCZ...
Well, you do know that... historically speaking... Ming loses against Qing, right?

YCZ came to realize that he had no hope of restoring Ming, since the Manchus were firmly entrenched, especially as he was jaded by how Li Zicheng utterly betrayed his ideals. YG didn't come a similar realization (at least not that I know of) but just ran off into the sunset.

You totally mis-characterized ZWJ.

Zhu Yuanzhang betrayed ZWJ by drugging him, and then letting him overhear Xu Da, Chang Yuchun, and Zhu Yuanzhang planning to kill Han Lin'er, but making it seem that they were plotting against ZWJ.

That traitor Zhu Yuanzhang forgets kindness and violates justice, I am fine with it. But Xu Dage and Chang Dage have special friendship with me, yet for the sake of riches and honor they are unexpectedly able to betray me. The three of them bear heavy responsibility within the rebel army. If I strike them dead with my palm, I am afraid the army’s unity would disintegrate. I, Zhang Wuji, have never coveted name or position.

Everything was secretly arranged by Zhu Yuanzhang. He wanted to make Zhang Wuji downhearted so that Zhang Wuji would retire voluntarily. First, Zhu Yuanzhang was dreadful of Zhang Wuji’s divine bravery. Second, Zhang Wuji was their Cult’s Jiaozhu who was highly esteemed by everybody in their Cult. Let’s say he wanted to kill him; not only Zhu Yuanzhang did not have the courage to do so, even if he did succeed in killing him, but if there was the slightest chance of his plot being exposed, the consequences would be too detrimental for him.
Zhu Yuanzhang understood very well that Zhang Wuji placed the important matter of recovering the country above all else, moreover, he loved Xu Da and Chang Yuchun like brothers. As soon as Zhang Wuji heard their discussion, he would quietly go away.

ZWJ retired b/c he thought that would be the best way to preserve the army's unity and to recover the country, not because he wanted ZYZ to do the dirty work or paint eyebrows for a living.
He thought his great friends and generals in Xu Da and Chang Yuchun had betrayed him for "the sake of riches and honor." He didn't want to kill them and wreck his army's moral, so the only way to avoid internal conflict would be to withdraw. He passed his position on to Yang Xiao, thinking that they would not plot against him.
(He had overheard them saying that they had evidence he was collaborating with the Manchus)


However, I'm sure you can find other examples; but Yang Guo just is the most striking one since his actions are such a stark contrast to Guo Jing's.

[kidd]

Yang Guo just is the most striking one since his actions are such a stark contrast to Guo Jing's.

Yang Guo is not Guo Jing. When some readers/viewers expect him to be Guo Jing 2.0?

[remixedasian]

Guo Jing is a hero for defending the people (in their time of need) to his last breath.
Yang Guo ... kind of abandoned them right at the onset of violence.
Surely he realized that people needed him?
But he was blinded by his love for XLN. Which is why the title of the thread is "Would Yang Guo have been better off without XLN?"

[kidd]

Yang Guo ... kind of abandoned them right at the onset of violence.

He killed that Mongol leader and push back the invasion for some time.

[yanfeng]

Princess Fragrance tops her in every category there. But I think she's less unlikeable.

Hi devilz91, absolutely with you- PF is another one of my pet peeves!

However I'm not annoyed at XLN because of the expectation that was set up. She started off being portrayed to be a cool, pretty awesome wuxia fighter in her own right- and then you had to watch her painful devolving.

PF was the archetypal sweet-innocent-child from the start, and I didn't have any expectations of her- from my p.o.v. she was the foil to HQT's strength and brilliance (not to mention she also provided HQT with challenge and motivation in some of the conflict since HQT was very protective of PF). PF was a plot/character device. XLN I was expecting to be a central character!

But I must caveat all this by saying that I'm basing my opinion of XLN on the TVB old drama adaptations (Andy Lau and Louis Koo versions) of JY's book so it's possible the novel actually puts XLN in a better light. I'm not impressed enough by either of the main characters to read to find out though.

Sorry so off-topic, meant to just voice my deeply held opinion that the wuxia universe would also be a better place without XLN.

Returning you guys to the regular programming of YG-bashing-defending...

[Banh Mi]

Why do you have to die for people who neither know or really care about.

[Ken Cheng]

He killed that Mongol leader and push back the invasion for some time.

...which is terrific, except the job wasn't done, and everybody knew it.

If the job were done, Gwok Jing would have retired to Peach Blossom Island too. He never did, because he knew that although an important battle had been won, the war was not over.

Why do you have to die for people who neither know or really care about.

Because that's what a hero does.

[Ken Cheng]

Yang Guo is not Guo Jing. When some readers/viewers expect him to be Guo Jing 2.0?

Yeung Gor isn't Gwok Jing 2.0, but as a result, the consequence is that Yeung Gor does not deserve to be placed on the same heroic pedestal as Gwok Jing.

[kidd]

Yeung Gor isn't Gwok Jing 2.0, but as a result, the consequence is that Yeung Gor does not deserve to be placed on the same heroic pedestal as Gwok Jing.

And he isn't. Among readers and TV viewers, Guo Jing has always been placed on a higher pedestal than Yang Guo in the area of heroism.

[Ken Cheng]

And he isn't. Among readers and TV viewers, Guo Jing has always been placed on a higher pedestal than Yang Guo in the area of heroism.

That's good enough for me.

[CancerLuna]

GJ had a 16 year vacation and then started defending the country.

YG used his 16 years to help the country and then started his vacation.

Didn't 3rd edition mention he kept contact with GJ and HR, I'm sure he stayed closely connected to the happenings of the world.

And doesn't XLN look the same after 16 years, I'm assuming Princess Fragance's beauty withers at the normal rate.

[Ken Cheng]

GJ had a 16 year vacation and then started defending the country.

Thirteen years, and that's because nothing much was happening in the Central Plains. The Jin Empire had been eradicated. West Poison Au Yeung Fung had lost his mind and no longer posed a threat. The Mongols were busy with their other conquests in the West, and the only new thing happening in wulin was a little problem by the name of Lee Mok Sau (although you wonder why nobody took an active interest in her until ROCH started).

YG used his 16 years to help the country and then started his vacation.

...which he *never* came back from, despite being the youngest of the Greats and having won himself lots of clout to lead the next generation of heroes.

What a waste.

Didn't 3rd edition mention he kept contact with GJ and HR, I'm sure he stayed closely connected to the happenings of the world.

That'd be better if it's true...better than the whole "I'm too sexy for your wulin" attitude.

[devilz91]

And doesn't XLN look the same after 16 years, I'm assuming Princess Fragance's beauty withers at the normal rate.

Impossible.

[CancerLuna]

IIRC he was keeping contact with the real world, if this can be clarified, we can end alot of otherwise 2nd edition, 1st edition bashing of YG.

[tape]

If Huang Rong had died, Guo Jing was ready to give up everything and forget about the people and just be a hermit for the rest of his life.

[Ken Cheng]

If Huang Rong had died, Guo Jing was ready to give up everything and forget about the people and just be a hermit for the rest of his life.

You know, he *claimed* that he would do that, but I doubt he would have carried through with it. Before there was a Wong Yung in his life, Gwok Jing's overriding passion was to accomplish heroic things and help people. As much as Wong Yung meant to him, I doubt he'd really throw all that away even if she died on him. It's not in his character.