Beggar's Union (DGSD) vs. Beggar's Union (L/ROCH)

[tape]

Also, about launching LDAs as possibly being ineffective and an inferior way of fighting, I think that arguments holds very little water considering XF is described to be the ultimate warrior in terms of instincts and battle mentality. He didn't beat people with superior technique and inner strength by using a stupid method of fighting and not capitalizing on his own strengths. I can understand being subtle as a show of mastery in many pursuits, but it definitely does not insinuate being non-flashy is a show of superiority. All it showed in this case is that XF was able to do something that the trilogy Greats were not shown able to do.

[CancerLuna]

I didn't imply I thought that, but that the Trilogy Greats may have seen it as an ineffective way to fight(obviously wrong), the same way SPW fighters saw acupoint sealing as weak(which again is obviously wrong). Which may be the reason why you don't see them being done on the large scale.

If the two analyses by Lav holds true*, I don't see why YG/GJ/ZWJ can't launch an equally powered LDA if they wanted to.

*The analysis was basically:
1. Grandfather Yin launched what seems to be a small LDA
2. ZWJ is six times stronger than his grandfather, so he should be able to produce a stronger LDA

1. YG's feat of nonchalantly throwing the rod into the ground is comparable to XF's best try(or even better might I say)
2. YG is relatively equal to ZWJ and GJ in internal energy

`

Why does XF even have to launch full power blasts if YTZ didn't have higher internal? Or more importantly, do you think GJ would have to use full power palms to match YTZ?

IIRC YG also start avoiding palm clashes from GWM(I may be wrong), and from what ZBT thought of YG and GWM's palms. I can see the comparison between YTZ vs XF and GWM vs YG palm for palm clashes.

-- More on XF vs YTZ+MRF
It seems this is XF's worst match to date(almost staining his record as a perfect warrior), because I feel him going all out LDA blasts was ineffective and he might have had more success if he fought like the Trilogy Greats.

[ChanceEncounter]

What Ren Woxing is getting at (I think), and the point I've been making without seeming repetitive, is that launching full power LDAs for an hour is much different from fighting for hours on end like the trilogy Greats have been shown to. MRF was definitely not using his internal in such a way, so it would make sense for him to last longer. In YTZ's case, he isn't the one actively avoiding palm clashes like XF was doing (due to the ice poison) so he probably wasn't blasting away in the same vein as XF was; plus he had higher internal to boot. I never saw how this fight was indicative of low stamina, or of any Trilogy Great's superiority.

I mentioned a few times where fighting an equal opponent (YG vs GWM, Yin Tianzheng at Ming Peak, Hong Qigong vs OYF etc) is not as tiring as the method XF was using in fighting. In the other fights, I'm sure they're fighting at full capacity, but they are exchanging techniques, and each palm they are launching is not 100% energy like XF's is described to be. The method of fighting is just different, so they are not as comparable as you have been making it out to be. Look at the first exchange between Yang Guo and GWM -- their bodies shook and they were both thrown offstep just by the force of their blows. Do you really think they could keep that up for an hour? It seems they went back to the 'standard' way of fighting where they exchange techniques and block and parry, but are not throwing full force into their palms at every instance like XF was forced to do.

Actually, it seems to me like they were more likely to be throwing LDA's in that scenario. YG was specifically mentioned that he wanted to avoid clashing with GWM's palm head on, just like how XF didn't want to meet YTZ's palm head on. So how does one avoid a palm-to-palm clash? By using LDAs and other evasive maneuvers. Similarly, I reread that particular fight scene with XF, and there's no specific mention to him using "LDA", which is mostly a fan-coined term. I get the sense that XF was trying to keep his distance, but it doesn't read any different than how YG was trying to keep his distance from both GWM's palm and his remaining wheels. The only explanation would be if XF's entire fighting style was different than those of the trilogy greats, and I'm not sure if that's indeed the case.

[ChanceEncounter]

There are three books in the Trilogy and there were so many chances for them to do it and yet none of them ever showed any really powerful LDA blasts. If the Greats can do it then they most likely would have done it sometime somewhere throughout the three books. Also people have said that Jin Yong used DGSD to highlight that no matter how powerful you are, you cannot escape suffering. Therefore he intentionally made his DGSD Elites more powerful. Also as tape had said, there's no solid direct evidence to show Xiao Feng being more powerful than the Greats, but there's no solid evidence to suggest the Greats having more internal than Xiao Feng either. And the Xiao Feng/Yang Guo feat comparison it does seem comparable but I doubt Yang Guo can replicate Xiao Feng's massive LDA blast at Ding Chunqiu and this feat I reckon is much much more powerful than just about anything in the Trilogy. And Jin Yong did say that Xiao Feng's XL18Z is the most powerful between him, Guo Jing's, and Hong Qigong's. And having a more powerful XL18Z would need more internal.

The first point, I doubt it holds any explicit relevance. Unless JY himself claimed that he made his characters more powerful to illustrate the point, I'm not sure you can make it, and it entirely a meta-statement.

The second point, I believe is in the interview comparing XL18Z, which is what XF and XZ trimmed down and improved the old XL28Z into. XF didn't really use this improved version during the course of the novel, so I'm not sure it's fair to claim that he uses it in a hypothetical versus, or at least, no more fair than saying that ZWJ would beat him because he's younger and would continue to improve by the time he's the same age as XF, etc.

[PJ]

Guys, asking why the Greats didn't do much LDA is like asking why Dugu Qiubai wasn't referenced in LOCH. The answer is the same: Because JY didn't think of it until later.

[tape]

I think the difference is that XF was explicitly stated to be using full force every attack in order to ward off YTZ's poisonous internal, while YG and GWM felt more like they were fighting at their full capabilities, but were not launching 100% attacks at every attack. Iirc, GWM was marveled and scared by YG's strange and ingenious techniques, and I find it likely that those techniques are not 100% power strikes like the way XF's were, and thus less energy intensive.

[CancerLuna]

Guys, asking why the Greats didn't do much LDA is like asking why Dugu Qiubai wasn't referenced in LOCH. The answer is the same: Because JY didn't think of it until later.

This is very true, but then again, it shouldn't be used a reason why the DGSD elites are better, as the trilogy greats /should/ be able to do them too.

[tape]

The only explanation would be if XF's entire fighting style was different than those of the trilogy greats, and I'm not sure if that's indeed the case.

In that specific scenario, his overall fighting style isn't as much the point as is the necessary, specific strategy he felt he had to use in order to beat the ice palm energy. I think we can agree that XF's style in general already is more energy consuming than the other Greats, but in this specific battle, he used an absurd amount even for himself. There weren't any other instances that shows he tires at any rate faster than the Greats if he weren't specifically using a 100% strike strategy.

[tape]

Guys, asking why the Greats didn't do much LDA is like asking why Dugu Qiubai wasn't referenced in LOCH. The answer is the same: Because JY didn't think of it until later.

I have no problem with this statement, but I think similar reasoning as that could be used for a lot of arguments, many in this thread alone and we lose a lot of our detail grubbing discussions. For example, the argument of Xiao Feng possibly having less energy because he did not have super elite arts and is only 30 years old could be negated by simply saying JY wanted to portray an already made hero at the prime of his life, who earned his martial arts fair and square yet faces a cruel destiny.

[PJ]

JY wanted to portray an already made hero at the prime of his life, who earned his martial arts fair and square yet faces a cruel destiny.

That may be true, but it doesn't answer the question of whether this already-made hero has more IE or less IE than a Great.

Some questions have an obvious real life sequence-of-event answer, and I think it's good to keep that in mind in those cases.

[devilz91]

JY has edited his novels meticulously on two occasions. I'm sure it wouldn't be that hard for him to add some LDAs in the trilogy if he really wanted to.

[tape]

That may be true, but it doesn't answer the question of whether this already-made hero has more IE or less IE than a Great.

Some questions have an obvious real life sequence-of-event answer, and I think it's good to keep that in mind in those cases.

Yes, but in this case I don't think it's as obvious as you make it out to be. LDAs are not particularly hard to think of -- it's not the same for the Dugu example you brought up since he is a new character altogether so it makes sense for why he was never mentioned.

If JY's thought process was, "What can I add in this novel to make the characters more powerful than my previous ones? " then it is clearly in favor of DGSD elites having greater IE. If his thought process was, "My novels are getting stale, what new element can I introduce to make it a more fun read?" then it supports neither greater or lesser IE.

I don't think either thought process is out of the question nor is it obvious which one it should be.

[PJ]

I don't think JY is interested in rewriting fight scenes when there's nothing wrong with them within their context. It's only when [nerdy fans who have too much free time] start to think too much that it becomes an issue

[tape]

I don't think JY is interested in rewriting fight scenes when there's nothing wrong with them within their context. It's only when [nerdy fans who have too much free time] start to think too much that it becomes an issue

I actually agree with this point of view, which is exactly why I think Xiao Feng is significantly stronger. Going by overall feel of both his character, the other characters in DGSD, and over-the-top feats shown, it should be apparent that XF is stronger than say, Guo Jing. It is only when minute details are brought up that the two could be comparable.

[PJ]

Yes, but in this case I don't think it's as obvious as you make it out to be. LDAs are not particularly hard to think of

Novels starting with DGSD featured way more LDA than novels before DGSD. LDA was largely dormant, unexplored, until DGSD.

Another example is the prominence of speed in SPW, where speed beats high martial arts. We've seen Great-level fighters demonstrate superhuman speed before, but for them speed was never their selling point. Thus, from a speed perspective, DFBB > Sweeper Monk, who was never said to be super fast. Most of us, however, realize that speed isn't the only measure of fight performance, and indeed, like LDA, it's just one style that JY explored.

[PJ]

I actually agree with this point of view, which is exactly why I think Xiao Feng is significantly stronger. Going by overall feel of both his character, the other characters in DGSD, and over-the-top feats shown, it should be apparent that XF is stronger than say, Guo Jing. It is only when minute details are brought up that the two could be comparable.

I think it's just different ways of looking at levels. I've always held the belief that DGSD Elites are more powerful, while the Greats are more sophisticated. Neither can do what the other can.

Thus, if you take the power-centric view, then XF > GJ. But if you take the sophistication view, then GJ > XF.

Interestingly, I've read research articles showing that Western culture pays more attention to straight-up power, while Eastern culture pays more attention to more subtleties.

[tape]

I think it's just different ways of looking at levels. I've always held the belief that DGSD Elites are more powerful, while the Greats are more sophisticated. Neither can do what the other can.

Thus, if you take the power-centric view, then XF > GJ. But if you take the sophistication view, then GJ > XF.

Interestingly, I've read research articles showing that Western culture pays more attention to straight-up power, while Eastern culture pays more attention to more subtleties.

I can see the sophistication in the Greats, mainly through fights where they rely on using pure martial arts understanding to deconstruct and construct moves to fight opponents, while it seems like the DGSD all have a particular martial art that they're fantastic at and use to obliterate the opponent.

The problem I have with that is that in SPW and in ROCH, through Dugu sword theories, it seems to show that the pure power or pure speed approach is superior to all that sophistication, and is a higher level of martial arts. The DGSD elites are blasting their way through, but it could be because their martial arts understanding is past the level of the Greats, and they realize it is the most efficient way to fight rather than using sophisticated stances. I think it is shown quite a few times when inferior fighters like the Xuan monks or Murong Fu show mastery of technique, but are owned by Xiao Feng who is simply more efficient at attacking.

I think being subtle and sophisticated is overrated.

Regardless, I would think sophistication would mean doing more with less, so if you believe a Great is more sophisticated yet less powerful, wouldn't you have to conclude he has weaker/less inner strength but uses it in a smarter way? One of the arguments made was XF < internal than Greats, but that does not seem possible given the power vs sophistication dynamic.

[CancerLuna]

One comparison that I brought up was Lav's assessment of XF and YG when they threw the rod into the ground.

If we believe YG is equal to GJ, then GJ should also be comparable.

Accepting this, it seems how the elites of a novel fight is more dependent on the style of that era than anything.

[tape]

One comparison that I brought up was Lav's assessment of XF and YG when they threw the rod into the ground.

If we believe YG is equal to GJ, then GJ should also be comparable.

Accepting this, it seems how the elites of a novel fight is more dependent on the style of that era than anything.

I personally classify this as an example of PJ's "nerds overlooking minute details", as I doubt JY realized the implication of these two scenes when writing them.

It's a fair point though which is why I think the two groups being roughly equal is a very valid opinion, just not one I subscribe to.

[PJ]

The problem I have with that is that in SPW and in ROCH, through Dugu sword theories, it seems to show that the pure power or pure speed approach is superior to all that sophistication

I tend to also believe that Dugu 9 Swords is a fantastic theory. Indeed, if one can master it, it will trump almost everything else. However, I believe JY made it too easy, too powerful, too soon, both with YG and with LHC. The result I get is that it's unbelievable and makes for good butt of jokes.

Actually, I think something like Taiji and Dugu 9 Swords would get boring fast. You always do the same thing regardless of the attack, and you keep getting better, so after a while, you're practically invincible. It's awesome at first, but the 300th time I do it?

No wonder Dugu Qiubai got lonely.