Beggar's Union (DGSD) vs. Beggar's Union (L/ROCH)

[Ken Cheng]

The latest from the "internecine combat across time" series...

The Beggar's Union was a powerful wulin organization during both the DGSD and L/ROCH eras. What if we were to pit the two generations of beggars against one another?

Kiu Fung was singularly superior as a fighter to his Beggar's Union Chief successors from the L/ROCH period, but could even he overcome a combined team of North Beggar Hung 7 Gung, Wong Yung, Lo Yau Gerk, and Yeh Lut Chai?

From there on, it's a battle between elders. In DGSD, there seemed to be about a half-dozen elders in the Union who were no weaker than the three junior Great Evils. From the L/ROCH era, there were a few elders who were decent martial artists, but not many of them and perhaps not as powerful individually as their DGSD-era counterparts.

Then, there's the beggar army of 300,000. This force worried the Khitan and the Tanguts (of Hsi Hsia) during the DGSD era, and was also a constant thorn in the side of the Jurchen and Mongols during L/ROCH. There might be little discrepancy here.

[Exodus]

It depends on whether the team of former chiefs possess any knowledge of who Kiu Fung is. If so they will most likely form a formation in order to have better structure when fighting a person like KF. Interesting thought if they use dog beating stick and dragon palms simutanously.

However if they have never heard of KF it then depends on who are going to attack KF first. If the weakest link do like LYG and YLC they will be finished off easily and KF might have chance. So many scenarios here and i personally think Hung 7 kong and WY already have what it takes to match KF since i don't see KF being significantly much more powerful than H7G. LYG is pretty much useless in this fight against a supreme great. If KF can somehow finish of WY then it can be interesting

Overall i think its more likely the team will prevail in this fight.

[Dirt]

Lu Youjiao would just get in the way.

[devilz91]

H7G + HR + YLC could probably give XF a pretty hard time, not sure who would win. LYJ is pretty useless, I bet any DGSD elder can take him down, and there seems to be quite a few of them. Not sure about the armies. DGSD wins.

[tape]

The thing about Great + X versus Great is that JY can write it any way he pleases to and it would make still make sense.

In this case, I've always believed XF to be solidly above H7G, and Yelu Qi shouldn't be a hard 1-2 hit KO for XF even in a group setting, which leaves it as HR + H7G against XF. It might cause him some trouble with her exquisite techniques, but I think he can last long enough to overwhelm one or both of them with Dragon palms.

[Ken Cheng]

The thing about Great + X versus Great is that JY can write it any way he pleases to and it would make still make sense.

In this case, I've always believed XF to be solidly above H7G, and Yelu Qi shouldn't be a hard 1-2 hit KO for XF even in a group setting, which leaves it as HR + H7G against XF. It might cause him some trouble with her exquisite techniques, but I think he can last long enough to overwhelm one or both of them with Dragon palms.

Kiu Fung's overall level is likely higher than Hung 7 Gung's, but not to the point that I think he can afford to be distracted by two other high-level fighters (e.g. Wong Yung and Yeh Lut Chai) while also fighting 7 Gung at the same time. Without Wong Yung and Yeh Lut Chai, Kiu Fung wins; with them fighting in conjunction with Hung 7 Gung, it's hard to say.

[tape]

Yelu Qi should be weaker than the Mongolian mercenaries, and Guo Jing found time to almost immediately break one's ribs. I rate XF above Guo Jing, so I see that scenario as a likely possibility.

Despite Huang Rong being on the next tier after the Greats, it is pretty much a huge dropoff. XF will not succumb quickly, and he will likely find the time to take her out of the fight too. Then it becomes a matter of time before Hong Qigong will fall.

[CancerLuna]

I'd think that under XF, begger clan was at its greatest and best for sure.

But if talking individually, XF vs a combination of H7G, HR and YLQ, I think XF would have major problems here.

XF had problems with YTZ and MRF, and I don't think they're better than H7G+HR+YLQ.

[Ken Cheng]

I'd think that under XF, begger clan was at its greatest and best for sure.

Mostly because of Kiu Fung personally. We saw how quickly the Beggar's Union's power unraveled after they expelled Kiu Fung from their ranks.

That said, DGSD era Beggar's Union had about a half dozen elders who were on about the same level as the junior Great Evils, which isn't too shabby. L/ROCH era Beggar's Union had a few decent martial artists as elders as well, but I'm not sure if there were enough of them or if they were good enough to match their DGSD counterparts.

And then, you have the rank-and-file members...

[ChanceEncounter]

XF had problems with YTZ and MRF, and I don't think they're better than H7G+HR+YLQ.

XF likely would have lost against YTZ and MRF had the battle gone on long enough. I can see a similar instance happening here. XF can't sustain peak effectiveness for that long.

[CancerLuna]

I think if ROCH beggar clan was without their leader, they would be worse off than the DGSD beggar clan.

@Chance, yeah that's the gist of it pretty much. XF has major troubles with YTZ+MRF, and I don't think they are better than H7G+anyone decent.

I'd still chalk the win to beggar clan in DGSD, just because I believe them as a group is superior.

[Ken Cheng]

I think if ROCH beggar clan was without their leader, they would be worse off than the DGSD beggar clan.

The DGSD Beggar's Union seemed to decline from rivaled-only-by-Shaolin status with Kiu Fung to vulnerable target almost overnight after Kiu Fung left them. It was only a few hours later that the Hsi Hsia 1 Bun Tong had the Union at its mercy, and the rest of wulin didn't seem to have the same awe of the Union that they did when Kiu Fung was Chief. Kiu Fung's departure crippled the Union.

By comparison, the L/ROCH Beggar's Union often endured long periods of Hung 7 Gung or Wong Yung being absent, but seemed to do all right. Maybe the organizational protocols had been improved somewhat during that 100-year period between the two eras so that the Union could endure the absence of a Chief better.

[tape]

XF likely would have lost against YTZ and MRF had the battle gone on long enough. I can see a similar instance happening here. XF can't sustain peak effectiveness for that long.

XF had trouble with YTZ's inner strength and MRF's techniques in diverting his power to YTZ. YTZ had similar/better internal than XF, while HQG imo definitely has less inner strength and a less ferocious palm. HR's mastery of techniques should also be less than MRF, especially since her best technique is known to XF, who is a prodigy at martial arts and can use that knowledge against you.

I don't think the two situations are comparable enough.

[tape]

XF had problems with YTZ and MRF, and I don't think they're better than H7G+HR+YLQ.

YTZ > HQG in inner strength and MRF > HR in technique. H7G is a more complete fighter than YTZ or MRF, but it doesn't seem as great an advantage against someone like XF, who is better in every aspect. At least YTZ had an advantage in one department that both him and MRF could exploit.

[CancerLuna]

It seemed like most of the beggar clan's decline was from inner strife and not their actual combat ability.

@Tape, but then again, H7G should be similar in overall strength to XF, and I believe he is a much better fighter than YTZ. YTZ's advantage in internal was offset by his huge lack of experience.

Here's an interesting question, YTZ+MRF vs the du monks in HSDS, I don't think this duo would be able to conquer the circle. What about H7G+HR+YLQ? Can YLQ and HR even enter the circle?

If they can, i think the trio above can beat the circle pretty easily versus YTZ+MRF above.

[tape]

Here's an interesting question, YTZ+MRF vs the du monks in HSDS, I don't think this duo would be able to conquer the circle. What about H7G+HR+YLQ? Can YLQ and HR even enter the circle?

If they can, i think the trio above can beat the circle pretty easily versus YTZ+MRF above.

Well that's where sometimes A>B>C does not necessarily mean A>C. The Du monks formation seem to make it impossible for weaker fighters to individually provide assistance to the fight so they do much better against groups of weak fighters, even moreso than someone who is better than them overall but would lose to the group of weak fighters.

Guo Jing would lose to GWM + Mongolian Mercenaries, but I believe the Du monks would defeat GWM + Mongolian mercenaries. Wuji can beat the Du monks, but Guo Jing would likely beat Wuji. It's a convoluted loop because certain fighters are stronger against different things.

[CancerLuna]

The GJ that would lose to GWM+Mongol Mercenaries is the one pre-16. He should be able to wreck them post-16 years.

I think the A>B, B>C, A>C should definitely be applied as long as everyone isn't at the same tier of power.

Like GJ>YG, YG>GF, GJ>GF should be assumed.

If it was YG>GJ, GJ>HYS, YG>HYS shoudn't be assumed since they're at the same tier of power.

How I'd interpret the Du Monks comparison is this. GJ pre 16 years would lose to GWM+Mongols, GWM+Mongols would lose to the Du Monks (maybe), GWM+Mongols would also lose to GJ Post 16 years, Du Monks would lose to ZWJ, ZWJ would lose to GJ, so its safe to assume GJ would also beat the Du Monks

But I do agree with the overall content of your post

Though I think H7G's team would be stronger than YTZ+MRF's team, which is why they wouldn't need to exploit an advantage to give XF a good fight.

Side Note; I feel as if GJ were to fight YTZ+MRF, he'd wipe the floor with them, so this might be what you were talking about Tape.

[PJ]

Side Note; I feel as if GJ were to fight YTZ+MRF, he'd wipe the floor with them, so this might be what you were talking about Tape.

Agree. In fact I feel any Trilogy Great should beat YTZ+MRF, with the exception of Losers (TM) such as QQR and GWM.

I always thought having XF < YTZ+MRF is one of JY's most unacceptable BrainFarts (TM).

[Ken Cheng]

I believe the Du monks would defeat GWM + Mongolian mercenaries.

Really? I don't think the Dao monks would definitely beat the Golden Wheel Monk by himself, let alone with the assistance of the mercenaries.

[ChanceEncounter]

The GJ that would lose to GWM+Mongol Mercenaries is the one pre-16. He should be able to wreck them post-16 years.

GWM after the 16 year jump really acquitted himself very well. He was shown to be much less of a choker, and even had the upperhand against several Great level opponents. Really, I suppose you could say YG was his kryptonite, he couldn't deal with his weird style and didn't anticipate his (YG's) internal strength to increase that much. But he could probably beat ZBT, YD, and HYS individually. I would definitely say post-16 years GWM + Mercenaries could/would beat GJ.

XF had trouble with YTZ's inner strength and MRF's techniques in diverting his power to YTZ. YTZ had similar/better internal than XF, while HQG imo definitely has less inner strength and a less ferocious palm. HR's mastery of techniques should also be less than MRF, especially since her best technique is known to XF, who is a prodigy at martial arts and can use that knowledge against you.

I'm not sure you can conclude that. Ultimately, we don't know the level of internal that YTZ had, but we do know it wasn't anything less than XF's. However, XF didn't have anything special about his internal (and he was quickly surpassed by DY even very early in the novel after sucking up internal from relative floozies). I would hesitate to put his internal on par with the likes of GJ, YG, or ZWJ, in all honesty.

His palm strength and fighting spirit should be superior. His internal? I don't think so.