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Thread: Xiao Yu'er Vs Hua Wu Que

  1. #21
    Senior Member devilz91's Avatar
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    No, I am not negating anything of HWQ's experiences. The kid spent more than half his life inside a palace with girls that act like robots. You really think he has more experience than XYE? Yes, maybe HWQ did make a deduction on XYE's whereabouts that was quite intelligent, but that doesn't convince me. Just because I can do something once in a while doesn't mean I can do it all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by CancerLuna View Post
    And no my example was a TRIVIA contestant, I picked this on the fact that they should "know" more than Einstein but definitely not smarter.

    Another example to illustrate my point, a scientist vs a drug dealer kingpin. Both are smart in their own field of work, but who are you to say who is smarter? Isn't it you who is placing value on the drug dealer's wit and "street smarts"? They have wildly different experiences, but who are you to say which one is richer?
    Obviously, they are smarter when it comes to certain things. Not that hard to understand. Street smarts are smarts as well. And that is where XYE beats HWQ.

  2. #22
    Senior Member CancerLuna's Avatar
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    What is your argument? XYR has less potential than HWQ because HWQ has less experience because they are equals? Or XYR is smarter than HWQ because they he has more experience.

    Here is mine.
    They are equals because:
    1. Author intention, author writes two different times that they are equals
    2. HWQ displays a feat that, to me, is equal to XYR

    You may dismiss it because you don't like the outcome but how is "he only did it once, he might not be able to do it again" a strong argument?

    Again, using tape's criteria, logic, abstract reasoning, and intuitive resourcefulness, HWQ displays logic with that one feat equal to that of XYR.

    Obviously, they are smarter when it comes to certain things. Not that hard to understand. Street smarts are smarts as well. And that is where XYE beats HWQ.
    Yes, then who are you to value streetsmarts over academic ability? Your argument is basically, XYR has more street smarts, thus he is overall smarter, whereas HWQ may display other types of intelligence.

    I'd like my question answered by the way. A drug dealer kingpin vs a scientist, who is /overall/ smarter? The scientist /should/ have the richer experience.

    Keep in mind, Legendary Siblings is a very XYR orientated book, versus it actually being divided in two.

    And to further prove my point,
    Xiao Feng... raised the steel staff with his right hand and forcefully threw it towards the rock. The steel staff was eight chi long (about 2,5 meters) and about five chi of it pierced into the rock. (about 1,65 meters)

    He only did it once, can we be sure it was luck? No, it is an obvious display of what he can do. To dismiss by saying he only did it once is laughable when it is clear what the author is trying to convey.

  3. #23
    Senior Member devilz91's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CancerLuna View Post
    What is your argument? XYR has less potential than HWQ because HWQ has less experience because they are equals? Or XYR is smarter than HWQ because they he has more experience.
    The second part is what I think. But if what you say is true, then the first part also holds true. Either way, they aren't equals. So you are wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by CancerLuna View Post
    Here is mine.
    They are equals because:
    1. Author intention, author writes two different times that they are equals
    2. HWQ displays a feat that, to me, is equal to XYR
    1. By two characters which I think are unreliable. Let me guess, you also think Wang Chongyang can take down GWM in 10 stances because ZBT said so?

    2. Maybe he did. That is not enough evidence to say they are equally smart, esp when throughout almost all other parts of the novel, XYE has shown himself superior and even outsmarted HWQ on quite a few occasions. You're basically holding on to one example out of dozens.

    Quote Originally Posted by CancerLuna View Post
    Yes, then who are you to value streetsmarts over academic ability? Your argument is basically, XYR has more street smarts, thus he is overall smarter, whereas HWQ may display other types of intelligence.
    In the world of wuxia, I would take street smarts over academic ability any day. You wouldn't? And aren't you also trying to weigh them equally? Who are you to value them equally?

    Quote Originally Posted by CancerLuna View Post
    I'd like my question answered by the way. A drug dealer kingpin vs a scientist, who is /overall/ smarter? The scientist /should/ have the richer experience.
    The scientist is overall smarter. That doesn't change the fact that the drug dealer has better street smarts. It's not that hard to understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by CancerLuna View Post
    Xiao Feng... raised the steel staff with his right hand and forcefully threw it towards the rock. The steel staff was eight chi long (about 2,5 meters) and about five chi of it pierced into the rock. (about 1,65 meters)

    He only did it once, can we be sure it was luck? No, it is an obvious display of what he can do. To dismiss by saying he only did it once is laughable when it is clear what the author is trying to convey.
    That is an obvious display of what he can do, because he's done many of such strength feats that are equally or more impressive. Whereas HWQ made a one time deduction and got it right. If you sit down on a slot machine and win the first time, do you expect to win again?

  4. #24
    Member Xaari's Avatar
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    I'm going to have to agree with devilz on this one. Isn't it also author intent that Xiao Yu'er is practically inseparable from the motto "smartest man in the world," which gets proven again and again when Xiao Yu'er thinks and talks his way out of nearly impossible situations? It seems to me that Gu Long put a lot of effort into showing that Xiao Yu'er is unparalleled in wit and Hua Wuque in naivety.

    Let's not forget that Hua Wuque was totally fooled by Jiang Biehe and Jiang Yulang for the longest time while Xiao Yu'er had no trouble at all seeing through every detail of their fake instances of heroism. Though Xiao Yu'er defended Hua Wuque, Luo Jiu stated, "Hua Wu Que’s martial arts may be good, but no matter what, he is young and ignorant." What makes Luo Jiu a less "reliable" source than Xuanyuan Sanguang or Yan Nantian in determining other people's intelligence?

    Also, recall that Hua Wuque was stupid enough to get tricked by Madam Bai and was later fooled by Su Ying into revealing the secret of 'Shifting Flower Grafting Jade.' Meanwhile, Xiao Yu'er could see through all of Madam Bai's schemes. Xiao Yu'er also correctly surmised many of Su Ying's plans and vice versa, making the two of them comparable in terms of intelligence, and Hua Wuque inferior to both of them. Furthermore, Xiao Yu'er outsmarts even the Floral Princesses on numerous occasions, but can Hua Wuque outwit them even in his dreams?
    Last edited by Xaari; 05-09-11 at 04:56 PM.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    Xiao Yu'er certainly had street smarts. Did Hua Wuque have book smarts?

  6. #26
    Senior Member CancerLuna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by devilz91 View Post
    The second part is what I think. But if what you say is true, then the first part also holds true. Either way, they aren't equals. So you are wrong.
    I will hold the that they are equals as the premise for this quote. Then you are negating whatever experiences HWQ had gotten and also negating what his display of intelligence.



    1. By two characters which I think are unreliable. Let me guess, you also think Wang Chongyang can take down GWM in 10 stances because ZBT said so?

    2. Maybe he did. That is not enough evidence to say they are equally smart, esp when throughout almost all other parts of the novel, XYE has shown himself superior and even outsmarted HWQ on quite a few occasions. You're basically holding on to one example out of dozens.
    Actually I would believe WCY can take down GWM in 10 stances if another person of authority said so, IE any other great. If only one guy said it, it doesn't hold much weight, but if gu long writes that one of the most powerful swordsman in the universe says it, it holds weight, and we should definitely gloss over it.



    In the world of wuxia, I would take street smarts over academic ability any day. You wouldn't? And aren't you also trying to weigh them equally? Who are you to value them equally?
    See, you are assigning value as you see fit. Why not another one, martial arts greatness or street smarts? Cooking ability vs academic smarts? There are multiple IQs at play here.



    The scientist is overall smarter. That doesn't change the fact that the drug dealer has better street smarts. It's not that hard to understand.
    How is the scientist overall smarter?



    That is an obvious display of what he can do, because he's done many of such strength feats that are equally or more impressive. Whereas HWQ made a one time deduction and got it right. If you sit down on a slot machine and win the first time, do you expect to win again?
    And what HWQ did was an obvious display of what he could do. Correctly analyzing and interpreting the whole problem isn't something someone can get off a lucky chance. The same way XF doing that feat (regardless of what he's done before) would show he is capable of such a feat again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xaari View Post
    I'm going to have to agree with devilz on this one. Isn't it also author intent that Xiao Yu'er is practically inseparable from the motto "smartest man in the world," which gets proven again and again when Xiao Yu'er thinks and talks his way out of nearly impossible situations? It seems to me that Gu Long put a lot of effort into showing that Xiao Yu'er is unparalleled in wit and Hua Wuque in naivety.

    Let's not forget that Hua Wuque was totally fooled by Jiang Biehe and Jiang Yulang for the longest time while Xiao Yu'er had no trouble at all seeing through every detail of their fake instances of heroism. Though Xiao Yu'er defended Hua Wuque, Luo Jiu stated, "Hua Wu Que’s martial arts may be good, but no matter what, he is young and ignorant." What makes Luo Jiu a less "reliable" source than Xuanyuan Sanguang or Yan Nantian in determining other people's intelligence?

    Also, recall that Hua Wuque was stupid enough to get tricked by Madam Bai and was later fooled by Su Ying into revealing the secret of 'Shifting Flower Grafting Jade.' Meanwhile, Xiao Yu'er could see through all of Madam Bai's schemes. Xiao Yu'er also correctly surmised many of Su Ying's plans and vice versa, making the two of them comparable in terms of intelligence, and Hua Wuque inferior to both of them. Furthermore, Xiao Yu'er outsmarts even the Floral Princesses on numerous occasions, but can Hua Wuque outwit them even in his dreams?
    I think you're equating stupidity with ignorance. A child can be more intelligent than an adult yet be more naive.

    Fluid intelligence or fluid reasoning is the capacity to think logically and solve problems in novel situations, independent of acquired knowledge. It is the ability to analyze novel problems, identify patterns and relationships that underpin these problems and the extrapolation of these using logic. It is necessary for all logical problem solving, especially scientific, mathematical and technical problem solving. Fluid reasoning includes inductive reasoning and deductive reasoning.

    Crystallized intelligence is the ability to use skills, knowledge, and experience. It should not be equated with memory or knowledge, but it does rely on accessing information from long-term memory.



    It seems like my message isn't getting through..
    Present HWQ and XYR with something independent of what they've learned so far. It is highly likely they'd learn and understand it at the same pace. Of course if you put their intelligence under a microscope looking for streetsmarts, you'd see XYR is the clear victor though nurture alone. What I am trying to say is not to assign value to just street smarts, but intelligence.

  7. #27
    Senior Member devilz91's Avatar
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    This is a really stupid and trivial argument of definitions, so it will be my last post.

    Quote Originally Posted by CancerLuna View Post
    I will hold the that they are equals as the premise for this quote. Then you are negating whatever experiences HWQ had gotten and also negating what his display of intelligence.
    I understand your premise. And no, I have not negated any of HWQ's experiences.

    Quote Originally Posted by CancerLuna View Post
    Actually I would believe WCY can take down GWM in 10 stances if another person of authority said so, IE any other great. If only one guy said it, it doesn't hold much weight, but if gu long writes that one of the most powerful swordsman in the universe says it, it holds weight, and we should definitely gloss over it.
    One of the most powerful swordsman in the universe, who also happens to be one of the biggest retards in the story (see events in Evil Valley), assessing the intelligence of two people who are way, way smarter than him, holds little to no credibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by CancerLuna View Post
    See, you are assigning value as you see fit. Why not another one, martial arts greatness or street smarts? Cooking ability vs academic smarts? There are multiple IQs at play here.
    lol, now I think you are just trolling.

    Quote Originally Posted by CancerLuna View Post
    How is the scientist overall smarter?
    You already know the answer to this, and I have already answered this. Read the topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by CancerLuna View Post
    And what HWQ did was an obvious display of what he could do. Correctly analyzing and interpreting the whole problem isn't something someone can get off a lucky chance. The same way XF doing that feat (regardless of what he's done before) would show he is capable of such a feat again.
    Not necessarily. While it's very difficult to get lucky in something like a strength feat, it's definitely possible to get lucky with a deduction. e.g. have you never gotten lucky on a test question before where you could do nothing than to make your best guess and happened to be correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by CancerLuna View Post
    Present HWQ and XYR with something independent of what they've learned so far. It is highly likely they'd learn and understand it at the same pace.
    I can agree with this.

    Quote Originally Posted by CancerLuna View Post
    Of course if you put their intelligence under a microscope looking for streetsmarts, you'd see XYR is the clear victor though nurture alone.
    Good, you agree with me too.

    Quote Originally Posted by CancerLuna View Post
    What I am trying to say is not to assign value to just street smarts, but intelligence.
    Based on those definitions you posted above. I will agree that HWQ has equal fluid intelligence to XYE, while XYE has higher crystallized intelligence.

  8. #28
    Senior Member CancerLuna's Avatar
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    If you agree with me that they'd learn at the same pace, I'd say they have the same intelligence..

    I think you may be(or I), have gotten crystallized intelligence interpreted in a weird way.

    Say HWQ learns 2+2 = 4 and XYE learns division. Crystallized intelligence would be a measure of what they can do with it, not what they actually know.

    For example, if HWQ can use the 2+2=4 and figure out long division, while XYE doesn't figure out anything when he learns division. HWQ would have the stronger crystallized intelligence.

    Not necessarily. While it's very difficult to get lucky in something like a strength feat, it's definitely possible to get lucky with a deduction. e.g. have you never gotten lucky on a test question before where you could do nothing than to make your best guess and happened to be correct?
    This isn't a multiple choice question. It is problem solving, and if you can somehow guess an answer to problem solving an open ended question, congrats, it isn't a random guess, but one based on intelligence.

    You already know the answer to this, and I have already answered this. Read the topic.
    No I still stand with the question, if you don't measure their IQ, how do you know which is smarter? Why is the scientist automatically smarter? I will agree there is a correlation between high IQ and being a scientist, but it doesn't mean the drug dealer can't be smarter than the scientist.

  9. #29
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    I'm not quite sure who's arguing for what anymore, but I'd just like to add that past experiences matter a great deal in defining current intelligence.

    If two people have equal potential intelligence, the one who is in a much better environment will prove to be more intelligent in almost every way.

    If both are in stimulated environments and learned separate but equal things, they are equally intelligent but excel in different fields.

    Some types of intelligence are more highly valued to some (logic, reasoning and deduction) while other types of intelligence (mastery of arts, abstract thinking) might be more valued to others. It depends on the type of test used to test for IQ. I think with regards to XYE and HWQ they are meant to be equal in every way given enough time, but clearly at the moment each is superior than the other in some ways.

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    How intelligent was XYR anyways? Through he was able to get out of several sticky situations, what hero doesn't? His intelligence is seems overrated. It seems to me that XBH(his father's servant)/ son of were of superior and equal intelligence. XYR was on the losing ends of several of their schemes, and XYR was never able to out scheme or reveal their schemes. The 10 evils were also not below XYR, through they let him trick them to set up his intelligence in the beginning, probably because of their affections for him. But these are examples of evil schemers, and perhaps XYR doesn't have it in him to hatch up these plots.

  11. #31
    Member Xaari's Avatar
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    XBH? Don't you mean JBH? How could he be of superior intelligence if XYR easily exposed his fake "Hero of Jiangnan" reputation by fooling JBH into revealing his evil deeds in public? I'm pretty sure that with his ridiculous eavesdropping abilities, XYR definitely witnessed many of the crimes of father and son and managed to put two and two together. Of course, there would be no story if he instantly uncovered such complicated plots, but XYR eventually figured them out. Also, I'm pretty sure that XYR himself said that he deliberately allowed JYL to trick him into consuming the poison, but it didn't do XYR any real harm. XYR also outsmarted JYL so many times in the underground palace, and it was rather clear that had XYR not wanted to delve more into the treasure map and therefore needed to follow JYL, JYL would have died there long ago. Now it's true that JYL did fool XYR once by replacing himself with the mute man, which means that XYR is obviously not invincible (no one is), but compare that with the dozens of times XYR uncovered their secrets (such as ingeniously discovering the spider web that opened the lair), and the father and son fall far short. As for the Ten Evils...they are definitely top-rate schemers with decades more of experience, but ones like Xiao Mimi lost to him for certain. XYR also proved himself superior to several of the Twelve Zodiac members.

  12. #32
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    It's been a long time since I've read the translation, but to me, I don't think JBH and his son were any inferior. While it's true that XYR foiled JL on several occasions, JL is after all a coward, and that shouldn't really factor into the impression of one's intelligence. I think XYR used this cowardice against JL, i never got the impression that XL was less intelligent then XYR, all his moves are logical moves that XYR would have done himself, and that's why he could figure them out so easily. JL is just a coward, and allows himself to be subservient to save himself. I think they're roughly the same, but XYR is obviously not as vicious as JL. And JBH is superior because although XYR could see through him, he is never able to unmask him for anything he did. JBH was able to out scheme and out talk him. The gold thief and kidnapping things in the end, JBH got away with despite XYRs best efforts. That retard YNT caught the two in the end, not anything XYR did.

  13. #33
    Member Xaari's Avatar
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    I'm still convinced from reading the novel that although JYL is one of the craftiest characters, his mastery of material and common sense still lose to XYR. One strong indicator that JYL loses to XYR is that while they both practiced from the secret martial arts manual that contained the essence of all the martial arts in the world, XYR mastered it far better than JYL did because he understood intricacies that JYL missed. And you're right, XYR uses JYL's cowardice against him, and it takes a heavy toll on even JYL's common sense, which I would still consider a kind of intelligence. JYL couldn't see through XYR's disguise in the restaurant kitchen, couldn't discern that XYR wasn't actually dead, and later practically believed that the servant boy had come back as a ghost to haunt him when it was really XYR having some fun. Someone as rational as XYR would never even remotely entertain the possibility of ghosts. Also, JYL's attempt to trick YNT was a failure, and we all know that XYR is a lot smarter than YNT, who didn't even end up getting fooled. And so many of JYL's tricks are seen through by XYR, for example during the rat contest between JYL and Xuanyuan Sanguan in the cave (which also makes XYR superior to another one of the Ten Evils because the devil gambler hadn't the slightest suspicion). I do see your point, however, that JBH is quite a worthy villain, and he is superior to his son in the art of deceit. And without his betrayal of Jiang Feng and Yue Nu in the first place, the story wouldn't even exist. But I still think that the wheels of XYR's brain turn much faster than that of JBH and JYL, and that his lightning-fast improvisations and ingenious deductions are unmatched by any other character in the novel.
    Last edited by Xaari; 05-23-11 at 09:13 PM.

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    Another example was that JYL was tricked by Su Ying. Does anyone here truely believe that XYR would fall for the same trick?

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    Clearly for those who have read the novel, they know XYE doesn't have a chance against HWQ, in the end of the novel before their duel, its implied even more.

    In my opinion, in the end, XYE doesn't even absorb 50 % of the powerful martial arts manual that he found.

    About intelligent, XYE win no doubt.

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    OT: Apology for hijacking this thread.
    Out of curiosity, which girl did XYE and HWQ end up with, according to the novel/serials. Thanks.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by wkeej View Post
    OT: Apology for hijacking this thread.
    Out of curiosity, which girl did XYE and HWQ end up with, according to the novel/serials. Thanks.
    Of course HWQ ends up with Tie Xin Lan and XYE says in the end of the novel, he wants to marry So Ing. But I have to say, its one of the most disappointing ending in the wuxia novels I've read so far. I hate the ending so much, it talks about some monkey who brings the wine, blah, blah, blah....

    I regret that Xiao Yu Er and Tie Xin Lan don't speak in a well mannered again to make both side understand that now they both have their own lovers.

    At least show true happiness and relief in the end, show that Tie Xin Lan is so happy to know that both of them are brothers etc...

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