Your disposition towards wuxia stories set during the Qing Dynasty.

[Ken Cheng]

There's certainly no shortage of wuxia stories set during the Qing Dynasty. It would also be inaccurate to say that Qing-era wuxia stories are generally unpopular because, after all, DOMD, CROUCHING TIGER HIDDEN DRAGON, and the LUI 4 LEUNG series are quite popular and well-known among wuxia fans.

That being said, overall, Qing-era wuxia stories seem to be less popular than those set in earlier periods of Chinese history. Witness how little discussion there is on Qing-era wuxia stories at this forum compared to for stories set in earlier eras.

What is your personal disposition towards wuxia stories set during the Qing Dynasty?

[chibidaisuke]

I hate Qing dynasty stories. Maybe it's because Qing dynasty period feels closer to the modern era to me and I feel that wuxia just can never blend in with the current period. I would have a hard time imagining wuxia characters doing their stuff in a modern world of science.

[PJ]

They're not so bad. The martial arts levels are not as weak as the stereotypes.

[Ren Ying Ying]

That's b/c this forum tends to be very Jin Yong dominated and specifically geared more towards his longer books.

But overall, I don't really thing the time period matters unless there's a historical background involved, in which case, Qing stories can still involve interesting settings.

Though, in terms of TV serials, I prefer not to have Qing simply b/c I don't think the half shaven head and long braids are very flattering. Costume design also tends to be a bit more creative and have more space to expand in for the previous dynasties.

[Ken Cheng]

Though, in terms of TV serials, I prefer not to have Qing simply b/c I don't think the half shaven head and long braids are very flattering. Costume design also tends to be a bit more creative and have more space to expand in for the previous dynasties.

Qing fashions are ooogley, but I wonder...did Qing-era fashions evolve at all during the near 300 years that the Qing Dynasty ruled China? The problem with adaptations of Qing-era wuxia stories or any dramas set in the Qing era is that it doesn't matter if it's 1644 or 1911: the people dress *exactly* the same. Qing era clothes, or at least the reproductions of them used for dramas set in the Qing Dynasty, tend to look *almost* modern. That's sort of jarring when you're watching something such as DOMD, with people dressed in "almost" modern era Qing clothing when, just a few years earlier, people supposedly still dressed like Kiu Fung or Gwok Jing did.

[Ren Ying Ying]

Historically, the Qing government did make major efforts to force the Manchu-nize and de-Han-ize the Han (ie. head shaving), so the major shift between pre-Qing and Qing isn't out of hand given the short time period span.

As for whether or not they looked the same in 1644 and in 1911, I can't tell you for sure. I'm sure there has been some fashion changes between the time (considering the costumes used for the Qing era are notably different from the actual Manchu dress. But in terms of making TV series (espeically wuxia ones), these minor details are usually ignored. I mean, in TV adaptions, you sometimes can't even tell the difference between a guy from the Tang dynasty (or earlier) vs. a guy from the Ming dynasty...

Personally, Qing outfits can look pretty nice sometimes. Occasionally, I actually quite like the Ming Guo period look where the guys still wear some Qing robes but have short hair. It's really the hair that usually puts me off. Some actors can look pretty decent in it, but overall, I prefer the pre-Qing hairstyle or short hair cuts.

[devilz91]

Indifferent. There are definitely some good Qing era stories, it just happens that the earlier dynasty stories are better (in the case of JY anyway)

[smurf120]

Qing fashions are ooogley, but I wonder...did Qing-era fashions evolve at all during the near 300 years that the Qing Dynasty ruled China. The problem with adaptations of Qing-era wuxia stories or any dramas set in the Qing era is that it doesn't matter if it's 1644 or 1911: the people dress *exactly* the same. Qing era clothes, or at least the reproductions of them used for dramas set in the Qing Dynasty, tend to look *almost* modern. That's sort of jarring when you're watching something such as DOMD, with people dressed in "almost" modern era Qing clothing when, just a few years earlier, people supposedly still dressed like Kiu Fung or Gwok Jing did.

I actually do feel there is a costume difference between early Qing and late Qing in recent serials. Early to mid Qing costumes tend to be more bright and pastel, while the later Qing gets darker. Women's hairstyles have more braids (early) or more elaborate, single bun/less adornments (later). Remember watching a whole series that broached the clothing style change (non wuxia) of loosefitting Qing dresses to "modern" tight fitting qipao (mandarin dresses) in the late 1800's.

[Ken Cheng]

Historically, the Qing government did make major efforts to force the Manchu-nize and de-Han-ize the Han (ie. head shaving), so the major shift between pre-Qing and Qing isn't out of hand given the short time period span.

As for whether or not they looked the same in 1644 and in 1911, I can't tell you for sure. I'm sure there has been some fashion changes between the time (considering the costumes used for the Qing era are notably different from the actual Manchu dress. But in terms of making TV series (espeically wuxia ones), these minor details are usually ignored. I mean, in TV adaptions, you sometimes can't even tell the difference between a guy from the Tang dynasty (or earlier) vs. a guy from the Ming dynasty...

Personally, Qing outfits can look pretty nice sometimes. Occasionally, I actually quite like the Ming Guo period look where the guys still wear some Qing robes but have short hair. It's really the hair that usually puts me off. Some actors can look pretty decent in it, but overall, I prefer the pre-Qing hairstyle or short hair cuts.

I actually do feel there is a costume difference between early Qing and late Qing in recent serials. Early to mid Qing costumes tend to be more bright and pastel, while the later Qing gets darker. Women's hairstyles have more braids (early) or more elaborate, single bun/less adornments (later). Remember watching a whole series that broached the clothing style change (non wuxia) of loosefitting Qing dresses to "modern" tight fitting qipao (mandarin dresses) in the late 1800's.

The production companies could be just lazy and/or cheap, but they tend to not distinguish much between the clothing styles of the early and later Qing eras. For Qing dramas set closer to the 20th Century, it doesn't matter so much, but for adaptations of stories closer to the founding of the dynasty, it's a little weird. Years ago, I saw a little bit of the TVB adaptation SWORD STAINED WITH ROYAL BLOOD (CRIMSON SWORD), which took place just before DOMD and chronicled the end of the Ming Dynasty/start of the Qing Dynasty. It just seemed jarring to see these characters dressed like those in DGSD/LOCH/ROCH/HSDS/SPW fighting with people who dressed like people who lived to be the parents of the generation who wore Western gangster suits in THE BUND.

It was like a time warp!

[kidd]

I don't like Qing Dynasty wuxia because of the men's hairstyle.

[Ken Cheng]

I don't like Qing Dynasty wuxia because of the men's hairstyle.

That's a sticking point for most people: it's an almost unanimous view that those hairstyles were ugly.

For Han Chinese, it was beyond unattractive and downright demeaning because it had been forced upon them by a foreign regime.

[PJ]

I happen to like the Qing dynasty men style. It has the biggest collection of cute guys of any period (as portrayed on TV).

For example, Jet Li playing Fong Sai Yuk. I thought he was so cute!

If you've ever seen the movie White Lotus Cult, the evil friend of the main character is to die for.

[Ren Ying Ying]

The production companies could be just lazy and/or cheap, but they tend to not distinguish much between the clothing styles of the early and later Qing eras. For Qing dramas set closer to the 20th Century, it doesn't matter so much, but for adaptations of stories closer to the founding of the dynasty, it's a little weird. Years ago, I saw a little bit of the TVB adaptation SWORD STAINED WITH ROYAL BLOOD (CRIMSON SWORD), which took place just before DOMD and chronicled the end of the Ming Dynasty/start of the Qing Dynasty. It just seemed jarring to see these characters dressed like those in DGSD/LOCH/ROCH/HSDS/SPW fighting with people who dressed like people who lived to be the parents of the generation who wore Western gangster suits in THE BUND.

It was like a time warp!

I'm not sure how it's like a time warp. It's not like Shunzhi walked into the Forbidden City with a tuxedo on...

What were you expecting the Ming/Han rebels or the Qing army to dress as? But then again, I haven't watched this particular version of BXJ, so I can't speak much.

Still, I don't have too much of a problem with not differentiating between early and late Qing (the turn of the century is a different matter). While there are some minor changes (mostly for commoner females), the style should more or less remain the same. I mean, considering many companies don't bother differentiating between the Tang and Ming dynasties (and everything in between), I don't see the big deal for not differentiating within the same dynasty.

I happen to like the Qing dynasty men style. It has the biggest collection of cute guys of any period (as portrayed on TV).

For example, Jet Li playing Fong Sai Yuk. I thought he was so cute!

If you've ever seen the movie White Lotus Cult, the evil friend of the main character is to die for.

I think guys that can pull off a good "bald" look tend to look decent in Qing costumes.
What find really ugly is in some older series, they get so cheap/lazy that they let the actors keep the hair in front. It looks even worse than the half shaven look.

[PJ]

A partial list of guys from Qing dynasty that PJ find cute

(NOTE: for the links, if they say "forbidden" when you click on it, just paste them into another window and it should display)

http://ns2.octavian.net/db/images/mo...+1993-11-t.jpg

http://img1.mtime.com/tc//d/2008/47/...328_96X128.jpg

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[kidd]

I think guys that can pull off a good "bald" look tend to look decent in Qing costumes.
What find really ugly is in some older series, they get so cheap/lazy that they let the actors keep the hair in front. It looks even worse than the half shaven look.

I prefer them having the hair in front even though it's historically inaccurate. They look better this way.

Btw, was there really no period in Qing Dynasty where they have this full head and just wear a pigtail?

[Ken Cheng]

Btw, was there really no period in Qing Dynasty where they have this full head and just wear a pigtail?

It seems to me that the delineation was where a person's loyalty stood. The Manchurians and the Han Chinese who were willing to accept Manchurian rule shaved the fronts of their heads, while those who were anti-Qing kept the full head of hair with the pigtail.

[Ren Ying Ying]

It seems to me that the delineation was where a person's loyalty stood. The Manchurians and the Han Chinese who were willing to accept Manchurian rule shaved the fronts of their heads, while those who were anti-Qing kept the full head of hair with the pigtail.

There's no point of putting your hair in pigtails if you're not going to shave your head since the "pigtails" were part of the Manchu attire. If you're going to be a "rebel" publically, you might as well leave your hair in the "Han"-style. If you're a rebel in secret, you'll still need to shave your head otherwise you'll get executed for leaving your hair.

[Ken Cheng]

There's no point of putting your hair in pigtails if you're not going to shave your head since the "pigtails" were part of the Manchu attire. If you're going to be a "rebel" publically, you might as well leave your hair in the "Han"-style.

Maybe the full head of hair skirted the edge of legality (e.g. it was frowned upon, but wasn't actually illegal), but not having the pigtail was definitely illegal and was grounds for immediate apprehension.

[kidd]

A partial list of guys from Qing dynasty that PJ find cute

(NOTE: for the links, if they say "forbidden" when you click on it, just paste them into another window and it should display)

http://ns2.octavian.net/db/images/mo...+1993-11-t.jpg

http://img1.mtime.com/tc//d/2008/47/...328_96X128.jpg

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/images/ezine/WFH_5.jpg

Just my personal opinion. Best looking actor in the Qing Dynasty hairstyle is Steven Ma.

[Ren Ying Ying]

Maybe the full head of hair skirted the edge of legality (e.g. it was frowned upon, but wasn't actually illegal), but not having the pigtail was definitely illegal and was grounds for immediate apprehension.

Not shaving your head WAS outright illegal. The law wasn't about putting your hair in pigtails, but acutally about shaving your head...which is why the Han were so pissed off.

Here's an interesting picture I just found on baidu, illustrating the evolution of the "shaven head pigtails" look throughout the Qing dynasty. The style we're used to seeing was apparantly a more late Qing development and the early Qing hair was even more fugly...ewww

(Top to Bottom: Early, Middle, and Late Qing) http://baike.baidu.com/view/94545.htm
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