A question for the formless theory experts

[TaiHan]

this is best done in unconsciousness. If one practice form to the point where it become part of oneself. In the battle that person would only let the reaction do the work. A person's reaction would react how ever it needed to protect oneself and not bounded by the form. But it would still move like the technique in the form but at same time not the completely the same as the form. During practice with the form the body learn how react in different situation but it did not learn the techniques only your mind did. The practice of form only teaches the body to react faster and how to reacts.

[ChronoReverse]

What you descibe there is "Attack Intent" where you attack without being bounded by technique. It still isn't formlessness tho.

This is the problem that I have with all the descriptions of formlessness - they are more or less variations of "Sword Intent"

I also don't like the idea of reaction based attacks. (I have the same problem with DG9J). By definition, if your opponent and you are equal in everything else, a reaction based attack cannot win since you _won't_ be faster than your opponent.

Also, conditioning your body to react automatically is something done by practically any Real Life (TM) martials arts anyways. And we know that none of that is really as supreme as it's made out to be in the novel. I find it hard to believe that people know how to something nowadays that they didn't figure out in the novels (or in the past).

And the biggest problem with this is that just because you're not consciously thinking about the technique doesn't mean your body isn't automatically using a technique. In fact, if you've conditioned you body to automatically react, that's definitely a technique in itself.

Additionally, that's being _very_ bounded by form rather than the opposite. Instead it's rather dangerous to completely depend on this if your opponent if aware of it. They'd be able to feint and bait your reaction to take advantage of it.


I've never read Shi Po Tian (nor saw an adaptation), but from what some of the members of the forum posted, it seems that he may have done something like formlessness, but I can't say anything really in any direction.

[Tian Cai]

[spooks]

Hmmm you should really stop these "all emoticon" replies. Obviously just an attempt to raise your post count cause it certainly doesnt add to the discussion.

[TaiHan]

ChronoReverse
what you said is true.
But disagree that a reaction based attack is slow. When one reached unconsciousness, their reaction time is really fast. They don't have to think, which slow down their attack.
prediction and decision how to attack wasted time as I posted earily.

what I agree is this

Additionally, that's being _very_ bounded by form rather than the opposite. Instead it's rather dangerous to completely depend on this if your opponent if aware of it. They'd be able to feint and bait your reaction to take advantage of it.

unconsciousness just help in moving faster and move in a way not according to the form. but this doesn't guarantee victory but just protecting themselves. Speed doesn't mean everything.

I think in battle one must somehow be unconscious and at the same time conscious as in thinking. Because both have their good point just they contradict each other. If they can be combine then they will fill the weakness of each other.

[ChronoReverse]

This is why a pure reaction attack will lost out to an all-out first strike.

Key examples used for the reaction based attack is when XF beat up that monk or when ZMJ beat up that other monk using Dragon Claws.

The flaw with these examples is that both XF and ZMJ were so far ahead of the opponent that they struck out after but landed first.

9 Yang Shen Gong's theory dictates that you don't move until the opponent moves. However, 9 Yang also provides a method (the internal energy) that allows you to be far ahead of your opponent.

If I can strike you at my max speed A and you are equal to me in that respect (speed). Then if you react and attack, you can never hit me first. The only thing you can do is try to reach a spot that is closer than what I'm targetting. But if I'm using a direct move such as a straight stab, I'm already aiming for the closest point possible in a straight line. This means that if I strike first, I'll win.

Besides, in the end, unconscious movement can really only be applied to reactions. There is no reason why one cannot train the body to be able to move in any way possible easily (in fact GJ was described to have reached this state). In the light of this, reaction rate is what unconscious movement can increase.

[JigSta]

I think the name 'formless' is a bit misleading...more like a "random, thought out variation of your techniques and stances"

[ChronoReverse]

I can say that that isn't it. When FCQ was teaching LHC, the first thing he taught was just that: to not worry about which technique to use too much and use whatever is in your repetoire fluently and as you willed.

This immediately increased LHC's fighting ability by a great deal but it was really only on par with that Knife guy (who isn't a bad fighter either, just not elite).

After he learned DG9j is when LHC really became an elite in the story.

We know that DGQB's formlessness is stronger than DG9J (regardless of whether DGQB actually created DG9J).

So formlessness must mean more than simply that.

[TaiHan]

I see what you mean
you said that there is a limit to the speed of a reaction when leaving out the factor in internal energy.
even when your brain can react very fast but your arms and legs are slower and have limits

[Laviathan]

Bump bump bump

[PJ]

another bump

The original question was: does formlessness automatically = better combat effectiveness? We have established the answer is NO. It's a nice theory; but as always, the situation depends on the fighter.

[TaiHan]

Originally posted by ChronoReverse
We know that DGQB's formlessness is stronger than DG9J (regardless of whether DGQB actually created DG9J).

It depend on which level of formless, you want to or capable of taking DG9J to.
Like I actually think the formlessness of the TaiChi sword is far below the level of DGQB and maybe on par or lesser than DG9J.

TaiChi Sword although formless, but is resricted by circular motion. When a TaiChi Sword master use a no move, it still got to be in some way a circular moment. I believe DGQB's progress of martial art is to get rid of rescriction. First resriction was the actual move, then the form, last is the sword. So DGQB's sword technique can actually be anything or basicly his expression, it can be circular, straight, fast, etc.

DG9J could be above TaiChi Sword, because when LHC executed a no move. It is said not to be in the boundary of the DG9J or any of his sword technique that he know.
FCY when preaching the theory, he didn't say specificly the level of formless to reach.

Originally posted by PJ
The original question was: does formlessness automatically = better combat effectiveness? We have established the answer is NO. It's a nice theory; but as always, the situation depends on the fighter.

agree. It depend on the figher, it depend on how effective the no move executed by these fighters. but it does give an unpredictablity for these fighter.

[Laviathan]

Don't wanna lose this one...

[TaiHan]

this thread is lucky
it had survive that terrible deletion monster. just too bad that Abilities of ZWJ thread is dead.
just bumping it up incase another monster came.

ok back to discussion I left off long ago about unconscious.

I had been convinced in the past by ChronoReverse that unconscious is consider slow and represent a weakness, and the user depend on internal energy to be faster in their strike or block.

After awhile I wondered is speed depended on the internal energy?
People like LHC had faster sword move than those who have higher internal energy than him. XLN's sword move was also extreme fast that Golden Wheel Monk couldn't even see it, and Golden Wheel Monk's internal energy is above XLN.

Also after ZWJ master the QKDNY his speed had increased, one could say that his increased because from QKDNY allow him to applies his internal power more efficient. But I don't see it that way, I think speed is depended on the mind. That is why certain Sword master seek to be cold-blood to allow their sword move to be faster. ZWJ while learning QKDNY I think at the 5 level allowed him to think much faster than normal and was able to do multitasking. I think it is because his mind's development that his speed was faster and not his internal energy.

So I think when a fighter doesn't have wandering thoughts in his or her mind(Sweep Monk-enlightenment) and doesn't think about the fight in terms of techniques and move of the opponent, the fighter should be able to exert an incredible amount of speed.

[Han Solo]

Speed in a wuxia duel would depend on a number of factor:-
1) Reaction time
2) Response time

Note, i used crudely the term reaction time for the time it takes the brain to register a phenomenon. That is not what 'reaction time' means in scientific literature. In physiology, 'reaction time' compromises the whole sequence from the start of a phenomenon i.e. someone throwing an orange at you, to the end of a specific reaction i.e. you catching the orange. I simply and artifically divide the proper reaction time.

1)Reaction time

Reaction time would include the time for the image of your opponent to register on your retina, processed through the visual cortex, and inform your frontal lobes.

Reaction time for the average human beings would be nearly similar if you compare it from person to person.

Thus reaction time would rarely be a factor in differentiating the speed among the wuxia artists.

2)Response time

Response time, IMHO, is where the difference among individuals emerge.

In short, the response time would include the time for the brain to process the information, come up with a plan, and instruct the hand or feet to move in a set plan.

This is where past experiences, theories of DG9J, Subconscious fighting all have its distinctive advantage as they more or less react accordng to their trainings without needing to waste time to think.

Also with higher inner power, one would presume that it would be faster to move their limbs i.e. their limbs would be stronger. Therefore, a higher inner power would also increase their speed.

In short, response and not reaction would be the key component in the differences of speed among different fighters.

Ramblings,
Han Solo

[PJ]

!up

[Laviathan]

Why don't we just make this one a sticky?

[Dennis Chen]

There is no 'bodhi tree' or a 'mirror bright', there is no 'sword' or 'self'. There is no 5th stage, there is only enlightenment.

[CC]

.

TaiChi Sword although formless, but is resricted by circular motion. When a TaiChi Sword master use a no move, it still got to be in some way a circular moment. I believe DGQB's progress of martial art is to get rid of rescriction. First resriction was the actual move, then the form, last is the sword. So DGQB's sword technique can actually be anything or basicly his expression, it can be circular, straight, fast, etc.

.

When you want to cover maximum area with minimal sword tip movement, a circle is the only solution. Maybe Z3F just found out the most efficient/fastest sword movement theory. Just because it had that circullr restriction might not necessarily mean it was inferior. Just a thought, I'm not too convinced myself.

[Athena]

In response to hentaixp's question about no sword overcoming the sword, I think this thread could help answer your question.