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Thread: WCY was only slightly better than the other Greats

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    Junior Member 东邪黄药师's Avatar
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    Default WCY was only slightly better than the other Greats

    during the 1st Hua Shan Lun Jian.

    Point 1: Tournament lasted 7 days.

    This suggests that the fights were close and took a long, indicating that WCY, while clearly better, was only slightly better.

    Some would argue that there was a theory part. But let's face it, there was no way the 5 of them would have sat down and started fighting theoretically. H7G and OYF did, but there was only two of them. Could you imagine them reaching any conclusion given the variance? The theory part would probably be just talk about how to improve MA, but then again, would any of them really share their true secrets? Why would WCY share his lifelong learning; so that H7G could improve and lead his Beggar Sect to become wulin's number 1 sect over Quanzhen? HYS didn't even allow his disciple to pass down Peach Blossom Isle skills to their offsprings, much less talk about his arts with his closest rivals. YYZ was mainly a family art. So was Ha Ma Gong; only one heir to White Camel Mountain Sect. The theory part of the tournament, was probably superficial (with respect to the Greats) and pretty much pointless. The second tournament saw no theory part.

    There are those who believe the other Greats vied for #2. This, to me, would be pretty ridiculous. The Greats were all proud people; I really can't see them going "WCY is #1, I shall settle for #2". If anything, I see them leaving once it becomes clear that WCY is #1, to return home and hone their skills more. Besides, let's consider there was a #2. It definitely wasn't OYF. Now if there was a #2 and it wasn't OYF, then surely OYF, with his vile scheming nature, would seek to sabotage the #2. But no, that wasn't the case. OYF, while he did try to sabotage the other three, he did not actively seek to ensure their demise. OYF wasn't there to make sure Ying Gu finished the job on 1Deng. OYF had the map to Peach Blossom Isle, but didn't gave HYS a surprise visit. Sure, he did incite fights, but when that failed, he didn't do anything else. Furthermore, it wasn't like he was trailing HYS and finding a chance to strike. The same can be said about OYF-H7G as well. OYF did injure H7G gravely, but again, it wasn't like he was trying to find H7G. JY himself removed the line which H7G said 1Deng was slightly superior in the third edition, further suggesting that the other Greats were equal.

    Point 2: 1Deng didn't became almighty with XTG+YYZ.

    First, allow me to set some premises. Buddhism and Taoism are very similar and share many same concepts. 1Deng was a very enlightened monk. 1Deng was also a MA genius.

    Given these conditions, one would expect 1Deng to be able to master XTG to a sufficiently strong level. So if XTG was awesome, 1Deng would be insanely powerful, except that he wasn't.

    Could it be that 1Deng was, indeed crazy powerful before he expended his energy to save HR? No, it cannot be. There was no indication of this, and we know JY's intent was for the 4 Greats to be on par with each other. Thus, if we had to assume, we would have to assume that unless otherwise stated, the 4 Greats were equal.

    If 1Deng was indeed crazy powerful before healing HR, then he couldn't have expended all his energy to save HR. 1Deng himself already had very strong internal; coupled with XTG, how could he have needed to use his entire energy to save HR? Furthermore, it was specified that QQR was afraid of WCY. I find it very plausible that XTG could dispel Iron Palms just like YJJ energy cannot be sucked by XXDF.

    It is not possible that 1Deng, being the MA fanatic he was, did not train or at least master XTG to a prolific level. WCY would have made sure 1Deng was capable of subduing OYF and that means a decent level of XTG would be mastered.

    So 1Deng had XTG but wasn't crazy powerful. This leads me to conclude that XTG wasn't all-powerful, but probably on par with the other Greats' skills. I mean if H7G learnt OYF's Snake Staff skills and OYF learnt DBS, neither would really improve drastically since both skills are comparable/about the same level.

    Point 3: But the Quanzhen 7 Zi and ZBT said WCY would whoop GWM!

    They probably extrapolated WCY's progress. Isn't it logical? Not sure how many of you lift weights/go to the gym. Suppose you had a training partner but parted ways after some time. If after a year, you are asked to gauge his/her strength, surely you would make a guess with the assumption that he/she improved as well, won't you?

    In addition, the Quanzhen 7 Zi and ZBT sort of idolize WCY, so they probably elevated him to a higher level.

    Point 4: WCY did not seek out OYF after the tournament.

    We all know that OYF was a wicked person who went around messing stuff up. ZBT commented to GJ during their first encounter in Peach Blossom Isle caves that if OYF were to return, the wulin would be thrown into chaos again. This strongly suggests that OYF went around doing evil and starting nonsense. To exterminate evil, would be everyone's responsibility. So why didn't WCY went to look for OYF after the tournament to kill him if he was that much better than OYF? Doing so would only earn praise from the wulin and bring even more prestige to QuanZhen. But no, instead, WCY makes a trip to Dali. Perhaps WCY knew his end was near and he didn't have full confidence of subduing OYF in a fair fight-again suggesting he wasn't that much better than OYF/other greats.

    Point 5: WCY did take HYS' pills.

    If he wasn't exhausted, why would he take them? One can argue that he was being polite and accepted only out of courtesy, but that was no mention of this in the novel at all. If JY did intend for WCY to be that strong, why didn't he state that WCY didn't need the pills?

    Old age is a pretty non-factor here. You can argue that WCY's older age made him tired faster, but then again, given his older age, he could have amassed a greater internal energy and thus tire less quickly.

    Either way, since WCY did get tired, it shows that he did have to put in a lot of effort to beat the rest, again pointing towards the fact he wasn't far better.

    In conclusion, I believe WCY, during the 1st Tournament, was only slightly better than HYS, H7G, OYF and 1Deng. The gap could be something like QQR and the Greats. On a bad day, WCY could have lost to any of the Greats.
    Last edited by 东邪黄药师; 07-07-11 at 07:42 AM.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    Point 2:

    Yideng could do something no other Great could do: heal Huang Rong.

    Point 4:

    無爲.

    Point 1 & 5:

    Resting inbetween matches can explain the 7 days. In Chinese culture, when offered something, it is rude to refuse; this can be assumed.
    Last edited by Dirt; 07-07-11 at 11:52 AM.

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    Senior Member KJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt View Post
    Point 2:

    Yideng could do something no other Great could do: heal Huang Rong.
    That's a product of the martial art (YYJ), not the martial artist.

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    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KJ View Post
    That's a product of the martial art (YYJ), not the martial artist.
    His(?) assertion was that Wang Chongyang's martial art (XTG) was not that great. I responded that it allowed Yideng to do something none of the other 3 Greats (plus ZBT and QQR) could do.
    Last edited by Dirt; 07-07-11 at 12:33 PM.

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    Junior Member 东邪黄药师's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt View Post
    Point 2:

    Yideng could do something no other Great could do: heal Huang Rong.

    Point 4:

    無爲.

    Point 1 & 5:

    Resting inbetween matches can explain the 7 days. In Chinese culture, when offered something, it is rude to refuse; this can be assumed.
    OK, so XTG did have healing properties. That doesn't make WCY a better martial artist. We are discussing the way they fight at the moment.

    You said WCY wanted a natural way to defeat OYF. How could that be? First of all, to rid evil would be considered of utmost importance. Why would WCY be willing to gamble on the fact that OYF would steal from his coffin if he had a better alternative? He traveled all the way to Dali to ensure there was someone to keep OYF in check (sure, he didn't want XTG to be lost, but his primary aim was still to subdue OYF). This showed two things:
    1. He really wanted to kick OYF's ***.
    2. He wasn't certain that he could subdue OYF permanently.

    If his powers were far better than OYF and other greats, surely he could had and would had, went after OYF and ensured a clean job.

    I did agree WCY might have taken it out of courtesy. But that was nothing in-text that suggests he didn't need it. Allow me to quote myself: "If JY did intend for WCY to be that strong, why didn't he state that WCY didn't need the pills?"

    You brought up the point about resting in between. This just further strengthens my point. The fact everyone/the other 4 greats needed to rest would make it seem that the fights were exhaustive, therefore long. If WCY's skills were far above the rest, how could the rest have fought WCY for long? If WCY was that superior, this is what would have happened:
    Day 1: HYS vs OYF (draw, both needed to rest) and H7G vs 1Deng (draw, both needed to rest)
    Day 2: WCY's show. WCY beats Great. WCY proceeds to beat another great. At this point, it would be clear that WCY only needed to win another 2 Greats to become a clear #1.
    Day 3: WCY repeats Day 2. Tournament conclusive. And this was assuming WCY didn't fight on Day 1. If he did, it would take 2.5 days. The novel stated 7 days and 7 nights.

    However, if WCY himself needed to rest, the tournament would roughly stretch to 7 days-which was what happened.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    Wang Chongyang won Huashan Lunjian. Dongxie, Xidu, Nandi, Beigai submitted to Zhong Shentong. 'Nuff 'said.

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    There are a couple big threads using much of your similar reasoning. I am of the camp that WCY was only slightly better, with the seven day thing along with how ferocious and exhausting the tournament supposedly was in almost all descriptions given as the strongest points.

    The only problem with that is I also believe that the Greats were never meant to have surpassed Wang Chongyang either, but it is greatly contradictory since the Greats have been described to have improved greatly over the course of pre-LOCH, LOCH, and ROCH. I don't think JY meant for WCY to be easily defeated by say, ROCH Greats, which should happen given how much they improved and how small an edge WCY had.

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    Senior Member flamer's Avatar
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    There are a few things need polishing I reckon. How do you define "slightly"? How do you reconcile the difference between ROCH Greats and Pre-LOCH Greats?

    Specifically to your points.

    Point 1
    Theory component need not involve sharing their deepest martial arts secrets. When Zhang Wuji taught Fan Yao how to defeat Song Qingshu, was he teaching Taiji Fists to Fan Yao? They can easily discuss how they think other theory bits of martial arts like internal energy, breaking stances etc.

    The competition wouldn't be WCY having 4 fights with other Greats and story over. The other Greats will have to fight each other too. If you consider the match-ups, there can be around 20 different match ups for one-on-one combat between the 5 people. Given Golden Wheel Monk's one day fight with Ci En, 7 days is not a huge amount of time.

    Point 5
    You can't assume that. The story of the Greats eating pills were not told from WCY's perspective and there is no one in the story to provide that perspective.

    I covered this material a while back, trying to quantify it a bit more. Check it out if you're interested.
    http://www.spcnet.tv/forums/showthre...ats&highlight=

    I believe analysing relative Greats' strength should not be compared across the novels' progression. Rather, it should be compared across the age of the characters. It doesn't make sense if the novel progression dictates the level a character reached within their lifetime. ie 70 years old WCY ~ 70 years old HYS, not LOCH HYS.

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    Junior Member 东邪黄药师's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flamer View Post
    There are a few things need polishing I reckon. How do you define "slightly"? How do you reconcile the difference between ROCH Greats and Pre-LOCH Greats?
    By slightly, I meant around the difference of the Greats and QQR. If the Greats were not careful or that Lady Luck shined otherwise, QQR might just get a win over the Greats. I think everyone pretty much agrees with this. I am actually saying the same for WCY and the other Greats. Sure, WCY could beat them, but he needed to be focused and put in efforts.

    Quote Originally Posted by flamer View Post
    Theory component need not involve sharing their deepest martial arts secrets. When Zhang Wuji taught Fan Yao how to defeat Song Qingshu, was he teaching Taiji Fists to Fan Yao? They can easily discuss how they think other theory bits of martial arts like internal energy, breaking stances etc.
    At this point, who else could they talk about? They were the elite of the wulin. ZWJ taught FY how to defeat SQS. But would ZWJ teach FY how to beat himself? Would the elite of the wulin be sitting around talking about how to beat some lowly fighter? Doubt so. Would they talk about internal energy? I doubt it even more fervently. At this point, they were all trying to best each other. Why then would they share something that could confer advantages to others? The difference amongst them is so close that anything could possibly cause one to fall behind.

    I reckon you agree they would talk about superficial stuff. In that case, how long do you really think they would sit around talking a bunch of useless crap?

    Quote Originally Posted by flamer View Post
    Point 5You can't assume that. The story of the Greats eating pills were not told from WCY's perspective and there is no one in the story to provide that perspective.
    But again, I bring up to you the point that if JY did intend for WCY to be a full level better, this was a good chance for him to. He didn't. You could attribute this to a slip of his mind; yet this is a very obvious way to bolster WCY, but he didn't. If he was indeed not exhausted, surely 1Deng and the other Greats would had noticed.

    Quote Originally Posted by flamer View Post
    The competition wouldn't be WCY having 4 fights with other Greats and story over. The other Greats will have to fight each other too. If you consider the match-ups, there can be around 20 different match ups for one-on-one combat between the 5 people. Given Golden Wheel Monk's one day fight with Ci En, 7 days is not a huge amount of time.
    First of all, do you accept the premise that they were only interested in becoming #1? If so, then all any of the Greats had to do was to beat the other four to establish victory.

    Quote Originally Posted by flamer View Post
    I covered this material a while back, trying to quantify it a bit more. Check it out if you're interested.
    http://www.spcnet.tv/forums/showthre...ats&highlight=
    Very interesting, but I am not convinced. Sure, athletes have their peaks then decline towards the end of the career, but it seems not be otherwise in the wulin. As ZBT put it, of course one gets better honing his skills. There are many examples of old fighters in JY's novels: Z3F, XM Elders, MRB, XYS, heck, WCY was pretty close to his death bed during the first tournament, and of course ZBT.

    With regards to HYS' comment, I reckon it is more of a case of the physical body being unable to deal with the exertions of fighting. A 40 year old hockey player could run and sprint as fast as a 20 year old, but he would take a longer to recover after the game. This is my explanation for it. When fighting, HYS was stronger. It's just that he needed longer to rest after fights.

    You mentioned that GWM increased his internal energy by two times but this doesn't result in a 2x increase in fighting capacity. I agree in principle, but the figure got to be somewhat close. Throughout the trilogy, we have come to realize the importance of internal energy. WCY's famous XTG was an inner energy cultivation. JY made it a point that H7G addressed the issue of energy control when teaching GJ XL18Z. XLN had that silly ice bed. YG had snake gall bladders and that training in waters blah blah. In HSDS, having strong internal energy was necessary to learn the QKDNY. Ah Da/Ah Er/Ah San (forgot which) was able to impress Z3F and a very experienced YTZ (I reckon White Eagle King actually fought a hell lot of matches) just with his strong internal energy, again pointing out the importance of internal energy.

    My point being, internal energy is a very important aspect. GWM was beaten mainly on techniques, but the difference in internal energy between GWM and the Greats ain't that big. If the internal energy difference was too vast, I would figure that the Greats would be beaten by GWM. Remember that in the second tournament, GJ, despite definitely being much weaker than HYS and H7G, was able to hold out 300 stances because of the rule of no using of internal energy.

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