Can a person without a good formal education succeed in this day and age?

[xJadedx]

The ones with education has huge advantage over the ones who don't and it is not always about money. Money is not everything. With education, you are not guaranteed to make more money than the ones without, but you know how to manage better and know how to live your life better which are far more important than money. People like Michael Jackson and Elvis Presley are good examples. They both were very successful and made tone of money, but both led a very fukkup life. If they had good education, things would be very different. You don't hear educated people like doctors, lawyers, accountants, ect... live that kind of fukkup life but celebrities with tone of money without much education.

Uh, there are plenty of news about people with "higher" levels of education messing up. Let's just pick local Canadian news - there was recently a doctor who was caught for sexually harassing his clients for years and another doctor who killed his own children. I guess you just don't pay attention to those news but choose to memorize everything about celebrities instead. Having an education does not guarantee that you know how to live your life. Every person is capable of doing something stupid with their lives, just that if it's a celebrity, it makes the news much easier. Availability heuristics is something people really should be careful of when making judgments about others.

[Trien Chieu]

Uh, there are plenty of news about people with "higher" levels of education messing up. Let's just pick local Canadian news - there was recently a doctor who was caught for sexually harassing his clients for years and another doctor who killed his own children. I guess you just don't pay attention to those news but choose to memorize everything about celebrities instead. Having an education does not guarantee that you know how to live your life. Every person is capable of doing something stupid with their lives, just that if it's a celebrity, it makes the news much easier. Availability heuristics is something people really should be careful of when making judgments about others.

I didn't say intellectuals are perfect, there are bad apples in every group. However, people with education are less likely to live a fukup life than the ones without.

[wkeej]

Again, it depends on the definition of "succeed". I know people who have only 6 years of education but wroking well in fields like cooking, carpentry, plumbing, electrical works.

[Trien Chieu]

Again, it depends on the definition of "succeed". I know people who have only 6 years of education but wroking well in fields like cooking, carpentry, plumbing, electrical works.

My definition of success is very simple. If a person lives a decent life, then I would call it a success. An Average Joe/Jane who earn $10/hr working at Walmart and lead decent life would be a success. Celebrities like Amy Winehouse and Michael Jackson who abused drugs/alcohol would be considered failures.

[kidd]

Again, it depends on the definition of "succeed". I know people who have only 6 years of education but wroking well in fields like cooking, carpentry, plumbing, electrical works.

I don't know about carpentry and plumbing. But, if you are working as technician, you can't rise up the level no matter how much experience you have or how good you are. Sometime ago, I read our new government directive where big companies can only hire technicians that have diploma. So, experienced technicians who are even more knowledgeable than young engineers will have yet another limit to employment.

[Guo Xiang]

I don't know about carpentry and plumbing. But, if you are working as technician, you can't rise up the level no matter how much experience you have or how good you are. Sometime ago, I read our new government new directive where big companies can only hire technician that have diploma. So, experienced technicians who are even more knowledgeable than young engineers will have yet another limit to employment.

That's pretty limiting. What about people who can do the job but doesn't have the diploma? They will be expected to dump thousands of dollars to get a diploma they never needed in the first place, taking exams for stuff they already know? :\

[wkeej]

I don't know about carpentry and plumbing. But, if you are working as technician, you can't rise up the level no matter how much experience you have or how good you are. Sometime ago, I read our new government new directive where big companies can only hire technician that have diploma. So, experienced technicians who are even more knowledgeable than young engineers will have yet another limit to employment.

Some years ago, I remembered that it was reported in Australia and UK that in view of slow economic growth, university lecturers switched to being plumbers and electricians. Due to the lack of qualified people, the latter two occupations earned more than lecturing.

[IPlayWow]

The ones with education has huge advantage over the ones who don't and it is not always about money. Money is not everything. With education, you are not guaranteed to make more money than the ones without, but you know how to manage better and know how to live your life better which are far more important than money. People like Michael Jackson and Elvis Presley are good examples. They both were very successful and made tone of money, but both led a very fukkup life. If they had good education, things would be very different. You don't hear educated people like doctors, lawyers, accountants, ect... live that kind of fukkup life but celebrities with tone of money without much education.

uhhhh I'm not sure what you mean by effing their life up.

but if you're talking about MJ doing wrong things than I'm pretty sure some doctor with high education can relate to that too. have you ever heard stories of doctor touching little girls in an unprofessional way? or perhap when they are checking pregnant woman out? How can you be sure they are doing it in a professional way??

especially the cute male doctors that can seduce women and girls easily with their charming good look and financially stable career.

Oh not only that but now and days there are many GAY people becoming doctor... have you ever been touched in an unprofessional way by your doctor?

[sniffles]

Oh not only that but now and days there are many GAY people becoming doctor... have you ever been touched in an unprofessional way by your doctor?

Is this statement meant to indicate that you think gay doctors are more likely to behave unprofessionally and touch their patients in an inappropriate manner than heterosexual doctors? That's a very charged statement.

It doesn't matter if a doctor is gay or straight. That has nothing to do with whether the person is likely to behave unprofessionally. Very few doctors do that sort of thing. It's only that we hear about the ones who are problems, not the thousands of doctors who are professional and caring and treat their patients with respect.

Getting back to the actual topic of this thread, many employers in this difficult economic climate have begun to require certain educational background from employment candidates. It's a way of reducing the number of candidates when so many more people are out of work. It's often unfair, since candidates without the required education may be as qualified or better qualified than those who have university degrees. But if you want a job these days that pays more than minimum wage, you'll probably need a college degree of some sort.

[IPlayWow]

Is this statement meant to indicate that you think gay doctors are more likely to behave unprofessionally and touch their patients in an inappropriate manner than heterosexual doctors? That's a very charged statement.

It doesn't matter if a doctor is gay or straight. That has nothing to do with whether the person is likely to behave unprofessionally. Very few doctors do that sort of thing. It's only that we hear about the ones who are problems, not the thousands of doctors who are professional and caring and treat their patients with respect.

Getting back to the actual topic of this thread, many employers in this difficult economic climate have begun to require certain educational background from employment candidates. It's a way of reducing the number of candidates when so many more people are out of work. It's often unfair, since candidates without the required education may be as qualified or better qualified than those who have university degrees. But if you want a job these days that pays more than minimum wage, you'll probably need a college degree of some sort.

I didn't put any statement, I was asking questions.

[Feuersturm]

Aren't we all getting off-topic here?

I think it's possible . . . but it'll require that person to be at the very least street-smart. A formal education isn't necessary if you're already intelligent and wise to the ways of the world.

[remember_Cedric]

I believe people can succeed if they could wield their skills/capability and use in the right field. Not all people have a suit for the books, or should I say, academically-inclined.

[HuangYushi]

I ask this question because not all kids are good at studying and excel in formal school, but, they might have other talents.

When kids are "not good at studying and excelling in formal school", we must first look at the possible causes for the condition. The condition should not be used as a certain end, but a means to an end.

Before I go further, I'd like to make it known that for the most part, most people in every part of the world can and do make a sustainable living for themselves and their families doing whatever they are currently doing, regardless of their station in society. Whether "sustainable living" constitutes "success" is up to individual definition and interpretation.

So why is a kid "not good at studying" or "bad with books"?

Perhaps the kid has a personal problem that needs to be dealt with. I had a student whose average grades hovered around 65-70%, regardless of how much tutoring she got or studying she did. Eventually, I found out that her mind went blank when she perceived that there were "too many questions to answer and too little time to do it". So I encouraged her to deal with questions one at a time without worrying about the time and other delimiters. Her grades might remain where they were without hitting the "heights of success", but she might have learnt a little more about herself and gotten a means to deal with her problem.

Perhaps the kid does not have a home (or out-of-school) environment that encourages/promotes "academic success". While all parents want their children to have a measure of "success" (according to their individual definition) in school, there are many instances where the children's only source of "academic input" is the classroom. Since different children learn at different paces, the shorter hours in the classroom (compared to longer hours out of it) will definitely hurt those who need more repetition, further practice and greater guidance in schoolwork.

Perhaps the kid has a learning disability that is undiagnosed/undetected, either by ignorance or denial. Researchers have found that up to 25% of children have some sort of learning disability or other. The disability can be global, such as ADHD or ASD, or more specific to certain skills, such as dyslexia, dysgraphia or dyscalculia. Since learning disabilities tend to have a range (varies from negligible and mild to severe and debilitating), some children will be affected more severely than others, hence also affecting "school success". Children who have been ascertained to have a learning disability or more can achieve success, both within the limits of their disability and outside of it (on par with a non-disabled person) because adjusted teaching/learning methods can have been used for them, but children who are not diagnosed would have been deprived of such assistance.

These are but only three reasons.

Next comes the question of whether a person can rely on non-academic skills and talents to succeed.

Again, the individual definition and interpretation of "success" applies.

In Malaysia, an entire generation (and perhaps even two) have grown up with foreign labour in unskilled, semi-skilled and even skilled jobs (trades like brick-laying, plumbing, electrical works, etc). If the kids in these generations did not "succeed in school", would they even be able to get a foot in the door where unskilled, semi-skilled and skilled jobs are concerned? Employers perceive foreign labour as cheaper and more dedicated because of specific laws governing their employment, so kids who did not succeed in school in the conventional sense do not really have much bargaining power on their side.

Therefore, to cut this rambling post short, I personally feel that the issue of "success later in life" should be tackled before kids enter formal education (i.e. primary school).

Parents would do well to spend time with their kids and seek to help them handle personal problems. Then, parents can redefine and reinterpret the definition of "success" that they put on their children. Parents also need to plan for their children's future, based on their home environment, whether the children have a learning disability or not, and the children's non-academic interests/talents.

Then, we do not really need to debate on the need of a "good" formal education as a precursor of "success" in this day and age.

[IPlayWow]

So another story from one of my friend on WoW.

This guy told me he have been gambling 100 bucks everytime he go to the casino ever since he turned 21 and now he's 24. He always play BlackJack and the slot machine.

So for the past 3 years he come in and out of the casino. come in with 100 go out with zero.

he have never been to church or pray to GOD his whole life.

but two weeks ago on a sunday he decided to go to church and pray for GOD.

after that on Monday night he came to the casino with another 100 bucks. this time he came out with 10 grand.

So I have no idea but maybe praying to GOD help?

So GOD vs formal education? I have no idea.....

[Ian Liew]

So another story from one of my friend on WoW.

This guy told me he have been gambling 100 bucks everytime he go to the casino ever since he turned 21 and now he's 24. He always play BlackJack and the slot machine.

So for the past 3 years he come in and out of the casino. come in with 100 go out with zero.

he have never been to church or pray to GOD his whole life.

but two weeks ago on a sunday he decided to go to church and pray for GOD.

after that on Monday night he came to the casino with another 100 bucks. this time he came out with 10 grand.

So I have no idea but maybe praying to GOD help?

So GOD vs formal education? I have no idea.....

The day God answers gambling prayers like some genie or Flower horn is the day I stop going to church. To even equate God's will to your winnings in a casino is totally wrong, and more than a little offensive. Being a Christian is so much more than just going to church and praying to God in there - but that's off-topic.

Most likely your friend is lying. I rarely believe everything I hear in MMORPGs from people I don't know in RL anyway.

[IPlayWow]

The day God answers gambling prayers like some genie or Flower horn is the day I stop going to church. To even equate God's will to your winnings in a casino is totally wrong, and more than a little offensive. Being a Christian is so much more than just going to church and praying to God in there - but that's off-topic.

Most likely your friend is lying. I rarely believe everything I hear in MMORPGs from people I don't know in RL anyway.

well there's no way to disprove that's he's lying or not.

[HuangYushi]

To even equate God's will to your winnings in a casino is totally wrong, and more than a little offensive. Being a Christian is so much more than just going to church and praying to God in there -...

Agree.

The words "church" and "God" have generally-accepted meanings and are understood by most to mean such, but in reality, the true meaning of these words can vary greatly from one place to another, from one human mind to another and from one human heart to another.

So the guy who got his gambling prayers "answered" might eventually end up having to pay a price for it, and he'd better hope that it won't be too hefty then.

[Guo Xiang]

well there's no way to disprove that's he's lying or not.

Depends on which 'God' responded to his gambling prayer.

[Lucre]

these experienced guys without cert are often tossed in to help clean up young inexperienced engineer's arse. they know more, but they are supposed to submit to those with a degree. =p unfortunately.

[Lucre]

Depends on which 'God' responded to his gambling prayer.

exactly...there are many 'gods' around that takes care of the 'wealth department'....one of them might decide to give that fellow a hand.

but there is only one God (with the capital G).