Wuxia lovers: what do you wish you saw more of in wuxia fiction?

[tape]

I had to read the first HARRY POTTER book with a young student some years ago, and I also wondered what all the hype was about. It was *OK*, but not super-spectacular in a way that would separate it from all other youth fiction. Lesser-known works that I read when I was a kid during the 1980s were just as good, if not better.

I also just read the first Harry Potter book a few years ago and was very unimpressed. I was a pretty big reader when i was like 8-13, and liked the fantasy genre, so I read a ton of series that were similar to them. Plenty of serious ones, and plenty of humorous ones that poked fun of it's own genre already, and everything in between. I really don't see what's so great about it, and I have to wonder if it was just brilliant marketing and just a chain of random, fortuitous events that led to its success. Studying why it became successful is likely much more important than any writing tips or styles you could get from the books themselves.

[smurf120]

Harry Potter gets much darker and very well written at Book 5 and beyond. Very hard to put down 5 - 7. Explores many dark themes in a world no less complicated than Tolkien's.

Through some some strange luck I actually started reading the series at Book 5 (about 7 years ago), then went back and started at Book 1 to start at the beginning. If I started at Book 1 as an adult I would have never given the story a second look.

[Grundle]

I also just read the first Harry Potter book a few years ago and was very unimpressed. I was a pretty big reader when i was like 8-13, and liked the fantasy genre, so I read a ton of series that were similar to them. Plenty of serious ones, and plenty of humorous ones that poked fun of it's own genre already, and everything in between. I really don't see what's so great about it, and I have to wonder if it was just brilliant marketing and just a chain of random, fortuitous events that led to its success. Studying why it became successful is likely much more important than any writing tips or styles you could get from the books themselves.

It is so popular because it is so wildly different from all the other fantasy genre out there. It's approach to tackling mythology and magic veered from the same 'ol that has gone on for the last 20 years.

You saying that you have read a "ton of series similar" shows your ignorance to the fantasy genre. Nothing done up until Harry Potter tackled fantasy in the unique way that it does. Having a system of magic with a world of magical creatures does not mean you have the same thing. The best comparison would be Huang Yi wuxia versus Gu Long. Sure it's wuxia, but they are a world apart as far as how they tackle the genre.

[Cesare]

Nah. School stories had been there for ages. Even school (or boarding school) stories with fantasy/magic elements had been there before Potter.
Rowling's work is extremely derivative in many respects.
Want innovative approach to fantasy genre? Read some Holdstock.

[Ken Cheng]

Bringing the discussion back around to the topic...

How about a wuxia story set in the earliest days of wulin, during the times when the codes and norms of wulin were still being established?

[tape]

It is so popular because it is so wildly different from all the other fantasy genre out there. It's approach to tackling mythology and magic veered from the same 'ol that has gone on for the last 20 years.

You saying that you have read a "ton of series similar" shows your ignorance to the fantasy genre. Nothing done up until Harry Potter tackled fantasy in the unique way that it does. Having a system of magic with a world of magical creatures does not mean you have the same thing. The best comparison would be Huang Yi wuxia versus Gu Long. Sure it's wuxia, but they are a world apart as far as how they tackle the genre.

In what way is it wildly different? Please explain to me it's merits as you seem to be claiming to be an expert on the topic. Is it some sort of complete system of magic, or a fleshed out world that makes it stand out? The characterization? Those are the basic things I've compared it to when I read them, and they were not standout.

I admitted I only read the first book, so I extrapolated from there -- another poster mentioned Book 5 and above being truly good.

Have you read Piers Anthony's works? I was a huge fan as a child and many of his series were favorites of mine.

And about the ignorance comment, it is intriguing to me you mention that because there have probably been tens if not hundreds of thousands of books in the same genre, and it would just seem you would be the one being ignorant assuming the success is due to its unique content rather than a statistical anomaly. You could be entirely right, but having read so many that seem better, and being a statistics guy by profession, I can't help but think that. I hope I'm not coming across as being rude, I just feel that generally we try to find reasons for success/failures when a lot of times it is decided by unrelated circumstances (i.e. economy at the time, random tv shows being popular, etc) described in books like Fooled by Randomness and Freakonomics.

[Grundle]

Nah. School stories had been there for ages. Even school (or boarding school) stories with fantasy/magic elements had been there before Potter.
Rowling's work is extremely derivative in many respects.
Want innovative approach to fantasy genre? Read some Holdstock.

I think you didn't read what I put. There are thousands of works in the fantasy genre out there, so it is almost impossible not to be "derivative" of something else, but what I focused on was unique approach to the genre. By tying various different common elements together in a new way is what gives it it's appeal and flavour.

Have you read Piers Anthony's works? I was a huge fan as a child and many of his series were favorites of mine.

Yes I loved his Xanth novels. He was very creative and I enjoyed his settings immensely. He is another author I would point to that took a wide step away from the "accepted" fantasy format.

and it would just seem you would be the one being ignorant assuming the success is due to its unique content rather than a statistical anomaly.

Statistical anomaly does not quite explain away the wild success of the work. There has to be some merit to the content for it to have sold so many copies. I have a hard time believing people rushed out and bought the book to sit it on the shelf. If it were statistical anomaly, then only one of the series would have sold well and then dropped off. Random chance does not account for human behavior (which is not random). If this was a marketing success, again only one book would have sold well and then it would have died on poor content.

In what way is it wildly different? Please explain to me it's merits as you seem to be claiming to be an expert on the topic. Is it some sort of complete system of magic, or a fleshed out world that makes it stand out?

I would compare this series to Dune from the perspective that the author took the time to develop an entire world, an entire history, economy, and it's culture before ever writing the first word. It is a style of writing that was pioneered jointly by C.S. Lewis and JRR Tolkien, who loved to bounce ideas off each other. They also were more interested in developing the backdrop of their worlds before ever setting down an adventure. If I compare this to say, the Shanarra series by Terry Brooks you can immediately see a difference. Shanarra quickly degenerated into a repeated formula of quest, development, then success. It got boring real fast.

If you can get beyond the verbosity, another author who spent an incredible amount of time on development was Robert Jordan, but his problem is that he ended up trying to milk his series for all it was worth instead of driving it to a satisfying conclusion /shrug.

I have been a rabid fan of fantasy for years and it really takes a unique piece of writing to catch my interest anymore. These days I feel like I have read it all so it usually comes as a surprise when something can hold my interested for more than 200 pages. Harry Potter presented a well thought out setting, but it also contained good prose to accompany that setting. With that being said, Harry Potter held my interest, but neither was it my favorite piece of fiction either. I just think that dismissing it as "unimpressive" and having done "nothing new" does it a great disservice.

[tape]

Thanks for responding. From your replies, you seem to hold Harry Potter in decent but not of highest regards.

That is my problem with it. It enjoyed unheard of commercial success, and became a worldwide phenomenon. As big as Robert Jordan, Piers Anthony, or Terry Brooks were at their prime, they were still only known to those who read fantasy, and I dare say "real" authors didn't give them much credit for their works.

Take the early Xanth books for example, (before they turned into just a big book of puns) the world was fleshed out immensely. There was a history, there were villains, there were heroes, there are it's own magical and physical laws, and all the earlier characters were very realistic and easy to relate to with themes in immature love, inferiority complex, adolescence, honor and responsibility, etc. What makes the Harry Potter books better than this? You bring up the fact that it is new and innovative, but I'd really like to see specific examples.

My post wasn't aimed to say that the Harry Potter books weren't good, but they were no better than many written in the past and undeserving of it's commercial success. J.K. Rowling is what, a billionaire? I'd think the others are lucky to be hundred-thousandaires. My point of it being a statistical anomaly is that many series/books are good enough on an objective level to have been Harry Potter, but it was a storm of fortunate circumstances that the story was chosen over some other story. Maybe the mere fact that the name Harry Potter is psychologically appealing is it, but I just personally feel it is undeserving of its success.

In the end, this is just a hater post. Tons of stuff made tons of money that were actually inferior products, but I guess this one irks me a bit more since I feel a lot of Harry Potter fans are just Harry Potter fans and won't be giving other books or the fantasy genre another chance.

[Ken Cheng]

You know what would be cool and fresh in wuxia? A villain with a sense of humor. Wuxia villains tend to take themselves too seriously. It'd be cool to have a wuxia villain who wisecracks as he's/she's working his/her evil.

[tape]

You know what would be cool and fresh in wuxia? A villain with a sense of humor. Wuxia villains tend to take themselves too seriously. It'd be cool to have a wuxia villain who wisecracks as he's/she's working his/her evil.

I think a couple GL villains might possibly fit the bill, at least in the beginning before they reveal all their evilness. Wang Lianhua from Wulin Waishi was sort of like this with all his tricks.

[Ian Liew]

You know what would be cool and fresh in wuxia? A villain with a sense of humor. Wuxia villains tend to take themselves too seriously. It'd be cool to have a wuxia villain who wisecracks as he's/she's working his/her evil.

Some of Lu Xiaofeng's enemies were like that. Hou You, for one, was, like most of LXF's supporting cast, quite a charming and witty chap.

[Ken Cheng]

Some of Lu Xiaofeng's enemies were like that. Hou You, for one, was, like most of LXF's supporting cast, quite a charming and witty chap.

LUK SIU FUNG has always been special in this regards: nearly all of his enemies start out as his friends.

[tape]

I'd like to see Tian Boguang get his hands on the Sunflower Manual and turn into one of these villains. He wasn't particularly spiteful for getting his privates chopped off, but I'd imagine he might turn into a crazy (but humorous) villain if he got the chance to.

[Newxia]

Villain with a sense of humor eh? That could definitely be fun. Especially if paired with a straight-laced protagonist...

Could also see a very interesting dash of reality thrown in with the sudden freak accident death idea. Only thing is I can see is that I might get upset over such a turn of events, because it would seem totally unfair to just fell a character so coldly. I've gotten annoyed when authors would just kill off characters suddenly and seemingly without logic. Yet, at the same time it could be really neat, a commentary on even the biggest heroes' mortality, if done well. A good point to think on

On the subject of commercial success vs quality of novels, I agree that HP did get really big partly due to very aggressive marketing, but I also share the sentiment that it is deserving of its fame, much more so than many others that took the same path to success (Eragon, Twilight, both of which I thought were terribly written and plotted). I'm a fan of two sci-fi/mystery novel series which have relatively little hullabaloo raised when new books are released, but they're wonderfully written and plotted. Def deserve more attention than they get!

[Grundle]

In the end, this is just a hater post. Tons of stuff made tons of money that were actually inferior products, but I guess this one irks me a bit more since I feel a lot of Harry Potter fans are just Harry Potter fans and won't be giving other books or the fantasy genre another chance.

You are probably right. I find myself scratching my head in wonderment at Twilight's success. I really tried to give it a chance, but after raping my mind with the first book I didn't have the stamina to go on with the series. There is a lesson to be learned about that particular audience, but I still haven't discovered it.

I would say Wei Xiaobao is the closest you get to a villain with a sense of humor, even though he is more of an anti-hero. I also found Ouyang Feng hilarious, but he didn't realize what he was doing half the time so it probably doesn't count.

[Newxia]

You are probably right. I find myself scratching my head in wonderment at Twilight's success. I really tried to give it a chance, but after raping my mind with the first book I didn't have the stamina to go on with the series. There is a lesson to be learned about that particular audience, but I still haven't discovered it.

Oh god, Twilight was so bad. I think though, after giving up reading after 2 books, what it says about the audience is that 1. they like the idea of a girl protagonist, however whiny and annoying, being fawned on by two hot and dangerous males and 2. they have very low standards for quality of writing. Aka they don't know any better, or they don't care. Even now, going back to some of the fantasy novels I had read as a middle schooler, I cringe at the language and can no longer enjoy the story because of the bad writing. But back then I loved them (ex: Song of the Lioness series).

I would say Wei Xiaobao is the closest you get to a villain with a sense of humor, even though he is more of an anti-hero. I also found Ouyang Feng hilarious, but he didn't realize what he was doing half the time so it probably doesn't count.

Yeah, purposefully humorous gives a different effect than accidentally humorous. Both should be used more often in wuxia though, especially when it's starting to take itself way too seriously, like in movies...

[smurf120]

Fresh idea for wuxia - it would be interesting if for once the protagonist was not an orphan or orphaned at some point of the story. I understand that most if not all stories are quest based or coming of age for a teenage boy but that has obviously all been done before. I want characters who can move on and find a new life if duel fails or if they person they love is with someone else. Duel or battle can be for loved one like Fa Mulan taking the place of her elderly father.
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My assessment of Xanth (read 27 books of the series) vs Potterverse (7) - both are rich and deep in characterization. Xanth is a much much larger world that even leaks out to Mundania (Earth) and only has a central story line up to about book 6 then its all side characters and puns - it was also written over the course of 30 years; Whereas you need to look at Harry Potter as one single long story written in 7 long installments focused on one character going from age 11 to 18.

I will say that Xanth always made me chuckle no matter how inane the jokes, but HP series made me cry like a baby [as an adult] when

click to show/hide spoilers

Dobbie

died which showed the author's abililty to make me care about the characters. You should give HP a chance.

[smurf120]

Oh god, Twilight was so bad. I think though, after giving up reading after 2 books, what it says about the audience is that 1. they like the idea of a girl protagonist, however whiny and annoying, being fawned on by two hot and dangerous males and 2. they have very low standards for quality of writing. Aka they don't know any better, or they don't care. Even now, going back to some of the fantasy novels I had read as a middle schooler, I cringe at the language and can no longer enjoy the story because of the bad writing. But back then I loved them (ex: Song of the Lioness series).

I almost threw my shoe at the tv when Twilight I came out on cable after the first 15 minutes. I tried to reread A Spell for Chameleon a few years agao and was surprised at how crudely sexual Piers Anthony was for those first couple of books. Also laughed at the bad writing of RL Stein and Christopher Pike.

So I guess another lesson is know your audience. Young Adults and actual Adults have very different taste in fantasy -- even wuxia fantasy.

[Grundle]

I almost threw my shoe at the tv when Twilight I came out on cable after the first 15 minutes. I tried to reread A Spell for Chameleon a few years agao and was surprised at how crudely sexual Piers Anthony was for those first couple of books. Also laughed at the bad writing of RL Stein and Christopher Pike.

So I guess another lesson is know your audience. Young Adults and actual Adults have very different taste in fantasy -- even wuxia fantasy.

I think it is Anthony's fault that I have such an appreciation for puns (even awful ones). The way he played with language made it fun, and he knew how to write a story.

Anyone ever read Eric Van Lustbader's older stuff? He wrote some wuxia-esque stuff in the mid-80's/90's. Probably my first step into the world of wuxia.

[tape]

. I tried to reread A Spell for Chameleon a few years agao and was surprised at how crudely sexual Piers Anthony was for those first couple of books.

I'm sure that was big reason why I loved reading his books as an adolescent . He was pretty Gu Long-esque in his treatment of women. They were all voluptuous and inevitably had sex with the protagonist in all his series. Split Infinity, Incarnations Of Immortality, etc. The women were usually portrayed as strong and fierce before they meet the hero, and get turned into a worried wife by the end of it.

The man knew what young boys liked !