The other Chinese democratic election

[Dirt]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...elections.html

Don't those people in Wukan know that they're not ready for Democracy??? China is too big, its culture too different! They are an effront to Chinese everywhere. Why can't they respect their own cultures? They must get back in line with the Communist Party; kowtow and obey!

[Guo Xiang]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...elections.html

Don't those people in Wukan know that they're not ready for Democracy??? China is too big, its culture too different! They are an effront to Chinese everywhere. Why can't they respect their own cultures? They must get back in line with the Communist Party; kowtow and obey!

Is this a swipe at TC?

[Trien Chieu]

Is this a swipe at TC?

Guo Xiang, there are dozens (if not hundreds) of members here. Why do you think of me right away, not someone else? Am I that special to you?

[Guo Xiang]

Guo Xiang, there are dozens (if not hundreds) of members here. Why do you think of me right away, not someone else? Am I that special to you?

Because that was obviously not his stance but sounds a lot more like what you have been saying to him?

I identify a lot of people who looks, sounds or behaves like someone else on a regular basis. Does that mean all those people are special to me?

If everyone's special then no one is special.

[Lucre]

I think it just means you have a keen sense of observation, to identity people to their characteristics. Maybe it was his wishful thinking that at least one soul out there (nevermind if it's merely some faceless internet user) would be remotely aware of his assistance and took great comfort in it. =S Now you burst his bubbles. Hmm...

Because that was obviously not his stance but sounds a lot more like what you have been saying to him?

I identify a lot of people who looks, sounds or behaves like someone else on a regular basis. Does that mean all those people are special to me?

If everyone's special then no one is special.

[Trien Chieu]

Because that was obviously not his stance but sounds a lot more like what you have been saying to him?

I identify a lot of people who looks, sounds or behaves like someone else on a regular basis. Does that mean all those people are special to me?

If everyone's special then no one is special.

I don't see you identify other people but me so I thought I am special to you .
Anyway, back to the topic. Dirt, democracy is not always better for the people, it could worse. India, Zimbabwe, Sudan, South Sudan, Democratic Republic of the Congo and many other democratic countries in Africa are good example. Dirt, are they better than China? If China becomes a democracy, things will become chaotic as places like Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia, and Tibet will demand independence. China wasn't, isn't and will never be a democracy, at least not now. For Mainland Chinese, if they want democracy, then they should immigrate to another countries. China will never be the land of Democracy.

[Dirt]

India is also posting impressive growth rates and it is a far more stable country than China, which sees thousands of uprisi... I mean, protests every year. Mugabe has been President of Zimbabwe since 1980; Zimbabwe is not a Democracy. Sudan has been recoginized as an authoritarian state since 2005. South Sudan has been in existence for less than a year, it remains to be seen (in the next elections) whether or not South Sudan will be a democracy. The Republic of Congo's President has been in power since 1997; in theory he could be defeated in an election, however, nobody has the recognition that he retains to challenge him.

Of the 5 places you named, India is a democracy, Republic of Congo is a democracy and South Sudan's democracy has not yet been tested. Zimbabwe and Sudan are not democracies. I give you that you got it half right. All this took me about 5 minutes to look up; I suggest you do the same the next time you post.

Taiwan is a democracy. Is Taiwan not China? Many Chinese people in China posting on Weibo during the elections on Taiwan seemed to believe China can be a democracy. 13,000 Chinese residents in Wukan believe that China can be a democracy. How is it a Vietnamese guy living in Canada cannot?

[Dimeron]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...elections.html

Don't those people in Wukan know that they're not ready for Democracy??? China is too big, its culture too different! They are an effront to Chinese everywhere. Why can't they respect their own cultures? They must get back in line with the Communist Party; kowtow and obey!

Again, Wukan != entirety of China. But I do hope this election turns out better than some other village level election China has experimented in the past. Which usually resulted in vote buying and corrupt officials. If net result is positive I wouldn't be surprised if it the same process will be copied for other towns and villages.

India is also posting impressive growth rates and it is a far more stable country than China, which sees thousands of uprisi... I mean, protests every year. Mugabe has been President of Zimbabwe since 1980; Zimbabwe is not a Democracy. Sudan has been recoginized as an authoritarian state since 2005. South Sudan has been in existence for less than a year, it remains to be seen (in the next elections) whether or not South Sudan will be a democracy. The Republic of Congo's President has been in power since 1997; in theory he could be defeated in an election, however, nobody has the recognition that he retains to challenge him.

Lol no. Just because western media do not report them in the front page doesn't mean it doesn't happen. India has its own share of bloody uprisings, bloody crackdowns to put down the uprising, anti corruption protests, labor protests, human right violations. Hell, Indian still have Maoist insurgents.

Like this one here
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ing-riots.html
or this one
http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-...e1-755336.aspx
Imagine if this happened in Tibet, it would be the hottest news item for days.

And while India's growth is impressive, it is not nearly as impressive as China's growth, compare poverty level, FDI, and infrastructure level between China and India and it should be contrast like day and night.

Of the 5 places you named, India is a democracy, Republic of Congo is a democracy and South Sudan's democracy has not yet been tested. Zimbabwe and Sudan are not democracies. I give you that you got it half right. All this took me about 5 minutes to look up; I suggest you do the same the next time you post.

T

You haven't answered his question, which of the 3 countries is doing better than China. If you are a poor third world citizen planning a future for your family, which country would you prefer immigrate to assuming there are no language, cultural barrier, and bureaucratic barriers, India, China, or Republic of Congo.

[Dirt]

Again, Wukan != entirety of China. But I do hope this election turns out better than some other village level election China has experimented in the past. Which usually resulted in vote buying and corrupt officials. If net result is positive I wouldn't be surprised if it the same process will be copied for other towns and villages.

True. Of course, at one point in time, the Communist Party /= China. Time will tell.

Lol no. Just because western media do not report them in the front page doesn't mean it doesn't happen. India has its own share of bloody uprisings, bloody crackdowns to put down the uprising, anti corruption protests, labor protests, human right violations. Hell, Indian still have Maoist insurgents.

Like this one here
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ing-riots.html
or this one
http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-...e1-755336.aspx
Imagine if this happened in Tibet, it would be the hottest news item for days.

You're probably right on this one. Even the United States has its own protests in the Occupy movement.

I find it curious how you say things aren't reported in Western media, then you link to a BBC article.

I'm always curious about your digs at Western media and yet you support China's media which is largely State owned (and they can shut down anybody they don't own); nothing gets printed without the CPC's permission. How is that better than Western media?

I have been seeing the most recent Tibet protests. But they haven't been on the front page. Can you please post a front page article about the most recent uprisings?

And while India's growth is impressive, it is not nearly as impressive as China's growth, compare poverty level, FDI, and infrastructure level between China and India and it should be contrast like day and night.

http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...957281,00.html

Sustainable growth.

T

You haven't answered his question, which of the 3 countries is doing better than China. If you are a poor third world citizen planning a future for your family, which country would you prefer immigrate to assuming there are no language, cultural barrier, and bureaucratic barriers, India, China, or Republic of Congo.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/11/world/...ion/index.html

North America.

Can we get back on the topic of Democracy?

If we want to continue talking Capitalism. The next step would be comparing China to the USA. Who's bigger now, b*****?

LOL, when did this become a dick size contest?

Like "Grandpa Wen", I just want what's best for my fellow Chinese. Yes, economics is important, but it's worthless if the rich get richer and the poor get their land stolen from them. That's what happened in Wukan and they fought for their rights and they won some. I'm proud of them, they make me proud to be Chinese.

[Dimeron]

True. Of course, at one point in time, the Communist Party /= China. Time will tell.

Communist party is just a name. I do not consider Mao’s party to be the same as Deng’s party.

You're probably right on this one. Even the United States has its own protests in the Occupy movement.

I find it curious how you say things aren't reported in Western media, then you link to a BBC article.

I'm always curious about your digs at Western media and yet you support China's media which is largely State owned (and they can shut down anybody they don't own); nothing gets printed without the CPC's permission. How is that better than Western media?

Actually, USA is much better in that respect, but it has more to do with better education, demography, and economic level than anything else.

Also, I didn’t say they are not reported, but rather not plastered in front page to make everyone read the headlines. The tone is also a lot more neutral. Read any news about China and “state-owned”, “communist”, or “crackeddown” will almost always be used. For example, BBC and CBC is also stated owned, but you never hear any one constantly refer to it as stated own.

Lastly, I don’t support PRC media. If I ever say anything about Chinese media is that they are not nearly as effective and as good at propaganda (or information warfare if you prefer) as their western counterpart.

I have been seeing the most recent Tibet protests. But they haven't been on the front page. Can you please post a front page article about the most recent uprisings?

Really? Because I keep seeing headlines on Tibetan protest with death all over the place.

http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...957281,00.html

Sustainable growth.

That’s 2010. Right now India’s economic growth is facing tons of issues while China’s economy is headed for a soft landing.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/11/world/...ion/index.html

North America.

Can we get back on the topic of Democracy?

If we want to continue talking Capitalism. The next step would be comparing China to the USA. Who's bigger now, b*****?

LOL, when did this become a dick size contest?

And you completely missed the point. There are successful democracies (who also happens to be some of the worst colonizer and imperialist in the last 500 years), and there those that are not so successful. Then there are those who tried to switch to a democracy too fast and suffered catastrophic failure. The point is, democracy is not a guaranteed to be better, and it is not a religion (although a lot of people tend to treat it like it is). It is a system and tool like any other.

So, does the western style democracy fit China right now? IMO it does not, at least not right now. And even if it does a quick switch to is still far too risky. My point had always been, the current Chinese system is imperfect but works, let it evolve slowly, who knows, perhaps China will come up with something better.

Like "Grandpa Wen", I just want what's best for my fellow Chinese. Yes, economics is important, but it's worthless if the rich get richer and the poor get their land stolen from them. That's what happened in Wukan and they fought for their rights and they won some. I'm proud of them, they make me proud to be Chinese.

Economic and living standard is very important, in fact, I would say it is the most important thing besides basic survival. Rich and poor divide is an extremely serious problem in China (and other nations as well if occupy movement is anything to go by) along with corruption, but the whole reason I bought up India is because democracy is no guarantee it would fix it. And FYI, rich poor divide is also serious problem in India as well.

Let me ask you this, let’s say there is a revolution in China tomorrow that overthrew the CPC, let’s call it China Spring. Do you know what the most probable thing that will happen is? China Spring will end up like all the other Arab Spring, mass anarchy; lose of law and order, severally weakening of the country. Even if China becomes a democracy that respects human right later on (instead of turning into a post-spring basket case like Egypt), do you honestly believe that USA wouldn’t take advantage of the situation to further increase its own power at expense of China?

[Ken Cheng]

I agree with Dimeron. Democracy is not some miracle cure that will, by its very nature, automatically fix all social ills. Just as importantly, to make democracy work, the proper groundwork must first be established and the people who form this democracy must fully buy into the idea, which includes not only its benefits, but the sacrifices that it demands.

To have a sustainable democracy, one of the key compromises that a society as a whole must make is a willingness to sacrifice some measure of order, harmony, and stability so that the exchange of ideas (the lifeblood of democracy) can flow freely. Ask yourself this honestly: is the bulk of Chinese society, in light of several millennia of cultural conditioning via Confucianism and Legalism and their insistent emphasis on social order, stability, and harmony, presently ready to (as a whole) fully buy into the idea of exchanging that order, stability, and harmony for the uncertainty and regenerative instability that are necessary components of democracy? If not, can it be made ready? How much time and effort will be required to make it ready?

Unless these questions are addressed first, any democracy that emerges in China will be built on a foundation of sand and the people will retreat into authoritarianism again. A sturdy foundation for a democracy requires that the bulk of the population willingly and almost reflexively be prepared to challenge the status quo, even at great personal risk, to preserve the democratic ideal. Presently, the bulk of China's people are not conditioned for such a mindset. Can it be changed? Perhaps, but not quickly and not easily. Until that happens, sustainable democracy in China is not realistic.

Frankly, authoritarianism sucks, but it's so deeply ingrained in Chinese civilization that the Chinese will need to work *very* hard for a long time to overcome it. They've barely started; there's a long way to go.

[Dirt]

Been busy. So, I'll cheat:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...googlenews_wsj

One more thing: when the KMT gave up power on Taiwan, why was there no mass chaos? The waishengren are the minority with perhaps just over a million people on Taiwan. Why didn't the benshengren and the aborigines not cause chaos when the KMT gave up power? The aborigines are small in population, but the benshengren are huge comparatively; where was the chaos? Are the waishengren and the benshengren not culturally Chinese? Where were the aboriginal cries for independence from Chinese rule?

[Dimeron]

Been busy. So, I'll cheat:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...googlenews_wsj

One more thing: when the KMT gave up power on Taiwan, why was there no mass chaos? The waishengren are the minority with perhaps just over a million people on Taiwan. Why didn't the benshengren and the aborigines not cause chaos when the KMT gave up power? The aborigines are small in population, but the benshengren are huge comparatively; where was the chaos? Are the waishengren and the benshengren not culturally Chinese? Where were the aboriginal cries for independence from Chinese rule?

Since you seems to be just rehashing the same thing over and over again, I'm just going to quote what I have written in the other thread you started.

Eh, difference is that PRC is about 60 times bigger than ROC. Likewise, Singapore is just as successful if not more so than Taiwan. Should China follow Singapore model exactly as well?

Can democracy work in China, probably, once majority of Chinese are educated middle class. But at end of the day, current system, as imperfect as it is, seems to work okay for now. The risk is to end up like India (or worse like Russia in the 90s when it basically imploded), which is world's largest democracy, and given its economy, development, size, and history makes much better comparison to China than Taiwan.

At end of the day, Taiwan != China, in terms of geopolitical climate, population, education, and economy.

And even if Taiwanese aboriginal revolted against Han rule, I highly doudt it will go very well with Uncle Sam, same thing cannot be said for Tibet. Aboriginal are also not concentrated in one single area either.

[Dirt]

Since there's so much antipathy for Western media; and opinion piece:

http://www.china.org.cn/opinion/2012...t_24594560.htm

A quote:

After 1978, the grass-roots organs of state power were separated from the People's Communes and the former collective economic organizations became villager-run grass-roots institutions of self-governance. It is widely felt that, after 30 years of the self-governance model, the time is ripe for improving both the electoral systems and election campaigns. A photo of Wukan villagers writing on their ballot papers inside a voting booth in a classroom at a school-turned-polling-station went viral online. One Internet user nicknamed "China Micro-observation" commented: "While we are still discussing the question of whether or not there should be private screens to ensure voters have privacy in the National People's Congress, the villagers, who are lower down society's scale and have relatively lower literacy rates, have already addressed the details of democracy." This proves that the Chinese people can afford to engage in democracy and that it may be time to bid farewell to all questions regarding the quality, or otherwise, of democracy, Chinese style.

So much for the uneducated and poor GDP masses being unable to handle democracy.

[Guo Xiang]

Since there's so much antipathy for Western media; and opinion piece:

http://www.china.org.cn/opinion/2012...t_24594560.htm

A quote:



So much for the uneducated and poor GDP masses being unable to handle democracy.

Is it just me or did someone mention before that Wukan doesn't represent the general population in China?

And I think Ken summised the situation well.

[Trien Chieu]

Ask yourself this honestly: is the bulk of Chinese society, in light of several millennia of cultural conditioning via Confucianism and Legalism and their insistent emphasis on social order, stability, and harmony, presently ready to (as a whole) fully buy into the idea of exchanging that order, stability, and harmony for the uncertainty and regenerative instability that are necessary components of democracy? If not, can it be made ready? How much time and effort will be required to make it ready?

Frankly, authoritarianism sucks, but it's so deeply ingrained in Chinese civilization that the Chinese will need to work *very* hard for a long time to overcome it. They've barely started; there's a long way to go.

Ken, Confucianism and Legalism work very well for China. You may not like authoritarianism but it's the best for Mainland China. If Mainland Chinese want democracy, then they should find a way to move to another country where there is a democracy. Mainland China wasn't, isn't and will never be a democracy. Speaking of freedom, Mainland Chinese is freer than many western countries in someway. At least in China you can consume shark fin soup and other exotic animals freely, something you can't have in many so called free countries.

[Son of Light]

Confucianism is not pro-authoritarianism.
Taiwan as a whole is much more traditional and Confucianistic then mainland, and they achieved democracy.
China during Song and Ming was rather free as well.
Even legalism is not 100% pro-authoritarianism, only ShangYang and HanFei's school of legalism does that.
GuanZi's school of legalism is not pro-authoritarianism.

[Son of Light]

Ken, Confucianism and Legalism work very well for China. You may not like authoritarianism but it's the best for Mainland China. If Mainland Chinese want democracy, then they should find a way to move to another country where there is a democracy. Mainland China wasn't, isn't and will never be a democracy. Speaking of freedom, Mainland Chinese is freer than many western countries in someway. At least in China you can consume shark fin soup and other exotic animals freely, something you can't have in many so called free countries.

Dude, I seriously don't think the current Communism rule in China is very Confucian. XD

[Son of Light]

Singapore being just as successful if not more so than Taiwan is a joke.
Sg has a much higher Gini then Tw, what make it worse is that Sg is a city nation, making everywhere just as expensive.
At least in Tw, there are cheap place outside city area.
Sg has a higher GDP per cap, yes, but our economy is very unhealthy because it is MNCs, Gov linked Coys and exported dependent.
Tw has strong international brands like ASUS, Acer, HTC and all. Sg's strongest international brand was Creative that actually raise to glory not in Sg but in US, other home grew brand basically have no place in the global market, except from gov linked ones.
In Tw, they sent corrupted president to jail, in Sg, we elected a corrupted guy whom son got special treatment in NS as president.
In Tw, their boys only need to do NS (conscription) and end of sorry. In Sg, the guys here after NS need to do reservice, pass some stupid physical test call IPPT every year. The stupid physical test if fail means 20 evenings lost as training, every year.
Tw has a much better pulbic transport then us, yet they don't have rubbish like fuel tax, ERP, CoE, ARF.

Singapore may be good compared to a few other nations, but comparing Sg to Tw is a joke.

[Trien Chieu]

Singapore has the justice system that the world envies. No criminal ever able to escape the justice system in Singapore and the sentence is always fair. The sentence fits the crime. Criminals always get what they deserved with no leniency. I agree that Singapore is small city nation lacking natural resources and the cost of living is high but as for law and order, it's the absolute best in the world.