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    Do you guys think thats its easier for a cantonese person to learn mandarin than a mandarin person learning cantonese?

    Often times, i see cantonese person picking up mandarin faster than the other way around.

    Why is that you guys think?

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    Senior Member Ian Liew's Avatar
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    Mandarin is easier to learn as it's only got 4 tones compared to the 5 in Cantonese, and there are a lot of materials available if you want to learn Mandarin (unlike Cantonese which has almost no written learning materials). Mandarin teachers are all over the place, while the only way you can learn Cantonese is to pick it up while using it. There's also a need-factor, where Cantonese-speaking people pick up Mandarin usually because they need to for their work, while Mandarin-speaking people rarely need to learn Cantonese, and it's usually out of personal interest, which can reduce the urgency factor.

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    I am surprised that there are tones in Cantonese. I am a Hokkien. Are there any tone in Hokkien?

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    Senior Member Ian Liew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wkeej View Post
    I am surprised that there are tones in Cantonese. I am a Hokkien. Are there any tone in Hokkien?
    I think all dialects rely on tones to define the words - I'm sure Hokkien has the same thing. "Boh liao", for example, is always said in the same two tones whenever I hear it, and wouldn't sound right if you swapped the tones around. I'm not sur ehow many tones there are, though. Even with Canto I never really examined it - I just heard someone say that there were five tones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Liew View Post
    Mandarin is easier to learn as it's only got 4 tones compared to the 5 in Cantonese, and there are a lot of materials available if you want to learn Mandarin (unlike Cantonese which has almost no written learning materials). Mandarin teachers are all over the place, while the only way you can learn Cantonese is to pick it up while using it. There's also a need-factor, where Cantonese-speaking people pick up Mandarin usually because they need to for their work, while Mandarin-speaking people rarely need to learn Cantonese, and it's usually out of personal interest, which can reduce the urgency factor.
    There's also the matter that *Hong Kong* Cantonese tends to be composed of a great deal of popular slang that has a shelf life of about three years. If we take a Hong Kong person who was born in 1990 and time sling him back to 1980, he'd have *no* idea what his fellow Hong Kongers are talking about because much of the popular slang from the 1980s is completely extinct now.

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    Senior Member HuangYushi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wkeej View Post
    I am surprised that there are tones in Cantonese. I am a Hokkien. Are there any tone in Hokkien?
    Yes, there is. But there is no written form (no writing) to Hokkien, unlike Mandarin and Cantonese. Therefore, "written" Hokkien right now is just using Chinese words (standard Mandarin) and either (1) pronouncing them as Hokkien in perhaps two different sounds depending on the context, or (2) putting together a string of words that do not make sense in Mandarin to get the required sounds in Hokkien.

    (1) Pronouncing Chinese words as contextual Hokkien (example):
    下雨 = (Mandarin) xia yu (raining).
    下雨 = (Context: Normal everyday Hokkien) lu(k) hor
    下雨 = (actual character/word-driven Hokkien) ha wu
    风风雨雨 = (Context: Normal everyday Hokkien) hong hong wu wu
    As you can see, even in normal daily use, 雨 can come out as "hor" or "wu".

    (2) Putting together a string of words that do not make sense in Mandarin to get the required sounds in Hokkien.
    Required: (English word) "tomorrow".
    Mandarin: 明天 ming tian.
    Hokkien: ming-a-zai --> string of words: 明阿在
    明阿在 does not make sense to people who read characters in Mandarin or Cantonese.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Liew View Post
    I think all dialects rely on tones to define the words - I'm sure Hokkien has the same thing. "Boh liao", for example, is always said in the same two tones whenever I hear it, and wouldn't sound right if you swapped the tones around. I'm not sur ehow many tones there are, though. Even with Canto I never really examined it - I just heard someone say that there were five tones.
    Depending on how you say it, "boh liao" can have different meanings, viz:
    (a) "boh liao4*" can be 无了, meaning "no more already" (finished; all gone; none left).
    (b) "boh liao2*" can also be 无聊, meaning "boring" or "senseless".
    *Tones are just approximate, because the lack of a written form makes Hokkien difficult to express accurately in writing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Liew View Post
    I think all dialects rely on tones to define the words...
    I think (not sure though) that tones are not particularly prominent in Shanghainese. It's not like Shanghainese doesn't have them, but they seem to be less important than for example getting the voiced/voiceless consonants right...
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    Quote Originally Posted by QF View Post
    Do you guys think thats its easier for a cantonese person to learn mandarin than a mandarin person learning cantonese?

    Often times, i see cantonese person picking up mandarin faster than the other way
    All that emphasis on science, their language skill is rotting...
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Quote Originally Posted by HuangYushi View Post
    下雨 = (actual character/word-driven Hokkien) ha wu
    风风雨雨 = (Context: Normal everyday Hokkien) hong hong wu wu
    As you can see, even in normal daily use, 雨 can come out as "hor" or "wu".

    Depending on how you say it, "boh liao" can have different meanings, viz:
    (a) "boh liao4*" can be 无了, meaning "no more already" (finished; all gone; none left).
    (b) "boh liao2*" can also be 无聊, meaning "boring" or "senseless".
    *Tones are just approximate, because the lack of a written form makes Hokkien difficult to express accurately in writing.
    I have never heard "wu" as rain in Hokkien. I always use "hor".
    The "boh liao" example is good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wkeej View Post
    I have never heard "wu" as rain in Hokkien. I always use "hor".
    The "boh liao" example is good.
    下 is "har", but 下雨 is always "lu(k) hor", never "ha wu".
    风风雨雨 is always "hong hong wu wu", never "hong hong hor hor",
    But 风雨 can be either "hong hor" or "hong wu", depending on whether you want your fellow Singaporean to understand you (then say "hong hor") or not (say "hong wu").

    My maternal grandparents were well-educated true-blue Hokkien people from China, so the Hokkien they spoke (and in turn, what I heard and learnt) would be closer to the real thing, as opposed to my paternal grandparents who spoke a very localised form of it (which btw, I can also understand and speak).

    ---

    As far as I can remember, Hokkien in Singapore tends to have a less-than-savoury reputation, as it is associated with young NSmen, gangs, ah-peks and ah-mas, etc. In Malaysia, it is getting a makeover (new lease life) as a language of entertainment, knowledge and community through the efforts of the Astro Hua Hee Dai TV channel. Just two years ago, my kindy students could not say anything beyond "eat rice" in Hokkien, but now many of them watch programmes on Hua Hee Dai and think it's cool to be able to understand Hokkien.
    Last edited by HuangYushi; 09-16-11 at 11:25 AM.
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    Senior Member Ian Liew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuangYushi View Post
    As far as I can remember, Hokkien in Singapore tends to have a less-than-savoury reputation, as it is associated with young NSmen, gangs, ah-peks and ah-mas, etc. In Malaysia, it is getting a makeover (new lease life) as a language of entertainment, knowledge and community through the efforts of the Astro Hua Hee Dai TV channel. Just two years ago, my kindy students could not say anything beyond "eat rice" in Hokkien, but now many of them watch programmes on Hua Hee Dai and think it's cool to be able to understand Hokkien.
    My aunt in Singapore sings "Ai Piah Cia Eh Ya" in a totally different Hokkien from the one I use (I don't speak Hokkien, but memorise the phoenetics sung by Ye Qitian). I attribute that to Ye Qitian singing in Minnan Taiwanese Hokkien which is different from the local one.

    I have never heard of the second boh liao - the one I always hear is the "无了" version, which is very very commonly used even among non-Hokkiens. Hokkien phrases are very commonly used even while conversing in Cantonese or English - part of the wonderful Malaysian multi-cultural heritage, unlike Mandarin which seems a bit elitist and strictly conforming to the book. I've pretty much never heard anyone speak Mandarin and throw in English, Cantonese, Hokkien or Malay phrases, while all the other languages borrow words from other languages to better express themselves.

    I've never heard Shanghainese other than when in "China's got talent", Zhou Libo engaged in a conversation with this Shanghainese singer Zhu Xiaoming. It had a wonderful tone and seemed like it would rely on correct intonation - both speakers used the same tones for same words, and it was definitely non monotonous.

    This is the Youtube link - makes we wish I could speak Shanghainese.. I'd love to be able to speak like that!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QihD2DHjOv0

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    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    Shanghainese seems to be more nasally. I prefer it to Cantonese, but I know I'm biased. My dad and grandmother used to speak it all the time. Never taught me though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Liew View Post
    My aunt in Singapore sings "Ai Piah Cia Eh Ya" in a totally different Hokkien from the one I use (I don't speak Hokkien, but memorise the phoenetics sung by Ye Qitian). I attribute that to Ye Qitian singing in Minnan Taiwanese Hokkien which is different from the local one.
    Actually, Taiwainese Hokkien is not that different from the local one, especially when it comes from a line (generation) that is largely unaffected by localisation. If you have Astro channel 333, try spending 10 minutes or so on 娘家, a series that airs Mon to Fri, 8.30 to 9.30 p.m. It's a very recent production from Taiwan, set in current times, circa 2010. The younger characters speak Hokkien that is very understandable, and I hear a lot of my grandparents in the older (grandparent-type) characters when they lecture their kids/grandkids. (They use the same kind of phrases!)

    But I suppose being Hokkien-Hokkien on both sides of the family helps retain the Hokkien-ness in my speech. Living and working in Klang, a Hokkien stronghold, is another factor, because I still see a lot of customers (parents, aunts and grandparents of my students) who turn to Hokkien when Mandarin fails them (they run out of Mandarin vocabulary and switch to Hokkien).

    I have never heard of the second boh liao - the one I always hear is the "无了" version, which is very very commonly used even among non-Hokkiens. Hokkien phrases are very commonly used even while conversing in Cantonese or English - part of the wonderful Malaysian multi-cultural heritage, unlike Mandarin which seems a bit elitist and strictly conforming to the book. I've pretty much never heard anyone speak Mandarin and throw in English, Cantonese, Hokkien or Malay phrases, while all the other languages borrow words from other languages to better express themselves.
    I think is the environment that you live/work in. KL is still, by and large, Cantonese-speaking, despite the influx of non-Cantonese speakers from other states. Most fluent Mandarin speakers are likely to have gone to Chinese school, so they would have had a larger vocabulary at their disposal for normal everyday conversation. Technical jargon is another matter though, and depending on the situation, most working people would probably turn to English.

    I've never heard Shanghainese other than when in "China's got talent", Zhou Libo engaged in a conversation with this Shanghainese singer Zhu Xiaoming. It had a wonderful tone and seemed like it would rely on correct intonation - both speakers used the same tones for same words, and it was definitely non monotonous.
    This is the Youtube link - makes we wish I could speak Shanghainese.. I'd love to be able to speak like that!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QihD2DHjOv0
    I think Shanghainese is cool! Years ago, I had a tech support from Shanghai, who (naturally) spoke Shanghainese. It was really interesting to hear him use the language.
    Jin Yong's Ode to Gallantry [侠客行].
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    Shanghainese IS tonal. It's just that the tones don't seem to have the same importance as for example in Cantonese. And if I remember correctly, they depend on other factors like word stress or voicedness/voicelessness of the initial. But I am far from certain.

    I attended some Shanghainese classes while in Shanghai, but they were just free lessons for exchange students, we only had some 5 to 7 classes in total and our teacher didn't seem to have much of a teaching method...:-) (In any case, he never gave us any detailed instruction regarding tones...) So I only picked up a few phrases, some nursery rhymes and tongue-twisters - and I'm afraid I'm pronouncing those wrong...:-)

    In any case, I *love* Shanghainese. And I like Mandarin with Shanghainese accent as well. Though it was mighty confusing the first few days, esp. when it came to numerals.
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    My family speaks Teochew (also known as Chaozhou, Diojiu, etc.) but we've spent more than two generations in Cambodia. I can understand and speak it well - or so I thought - until I met a boy from Shantou. The only people I met who spoke Teochew before were all like me, with families from Southeast Asia like Thailand, Vietnam, or Cambodia. The dialect itself has changed a lot being in those countries and I have no problem going to Cambodia and speaking Teochew with someone there, but to hear this boy from Shantou... He speaks so much more nasally and we barely understood each other. If we spoke Teochew it had to be at a slower pace than our normal speaking speeds to accommodate each other's accent.
    Anyways I digress, but the dialect itself has eight tonal variations, but formally I think it's only six because there is a tone that is a combination of two others.
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    Hey Da Bao! Do you speak Khmer?!

    My maternal grandfather was from China, so my mother considers herself Chinese despite being Cambodian born. Her mother was a Chinese/Cambodian (2nd generation or something). My momma grew up speaking Mandarin (school) and Teochew (home) and picked up Khmer from the streets lol

    I, myself, only exclusively identify as being Cambodian American and speak Khmer and English. When pressed...then I would own up to my maternal heritage. Perhaps because most Chinese people (from China) have vehemently denied my Chinese identity. Really.

    Sorry, that was a bit OT haha
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    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    Khmer has its dialects as well though far more mutually intelligible than Chinese dialects. I'll never understand Cambodians who try to identify as Chinese even though it was their great grandmother or great grandfather (or even their grand) who was Chinese. There are nearly a billion of us, there's nothing special about being Chinese. It's more special to be one of the 14+ mm Khmer. My wife tells me it's a class thing. My kid is going to be an American.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HuangYushi View Post
    Yes, there is. But there is no written form (no writing) to Hokkien, unlike Mandarin and Cantonese. Therefore, "written" Hokkien right now is just using Chinese words (standard Mandarin) and either (1) pronouncing them as Hokkien in perhaps two different sounds depending on the context, or (2) putting together a string of words that do not make sense in Mandarin to get the required sounds in Hokkien.
    This is not true, The Chinese Written Characters is the written form for all Chinese dialects, inculding Mandarin, Cantonese, Hokkien Towchew and so on.
    Keep in mind that the Chinese Characters exists long before Mandarin exist, Mandarin is based on the BeiJing dialect, which was based on NanJing dialect after some Mongolian and Manchurian influence.

    The fact is, the Cantonese Dialect is the closest tongue to Middle Chinese, ie: what was spoken during the Tang and Song period.

    While the Hokkien Dialect, to be more precise, QuanZhou Hokkien is the closet tongue to Archaic Chinese, ie, what was spoken during Han and Sui period.

    If anything, Written Chinese suits any of the southern Chinese dialects much more then it suits modern Mandarin.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt View Post
    Khmer has its dialects as well though far more mutually intelligible than Chinese dialects. I'll never understand Cambodians who try to identify as Chinese even though it was their great grandmother or great grandfather (or even their grand) who was Chinese. There are nearly a billion of us, there's nothing special about being Chinese. It's more special to be one of the 14+ mm Khmer. My wife tells me it's a class thing. My kid is going to be an American.
    It is definitely a class thing. Well, one is not considered higher class with Chinese blood, per se. Rather, those with Chinese blood are considered to be smarter and able to make money haha due to the high number of Chinese merchant class families in Cambodia. So, there is some social mobility implied with being Chinese, just not a rise to being truly "cultured" in Cambodian society.

    Is your wife Khmer, Dirt? :-)
    I like me.

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    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    Yes, she is.
    Last edited by Dirt; 05-20-12 at 08:10 PM.

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