Swordsman 2012 《笑傲江湖》 - Wallace Huo, Joe Chen, Yuan Shan Shan

[Mido-Ban]

How come YBQ didn't get that powerful after learning the Bixie Swordplay? I mean he has the Huashan sword skills, and the Purple Twilight Manual plus 30 plus years of internal. He was pretty powerful already I would've expected him to be more powerful after learning Bixie Swordplay.

And Bixie Swordplay the Lin Family has is it complete like Sunflower Manual? And How come DFBB is able to master Sunflower Manual without castration? I guess at the end she learned the final technique Phoenix Reborn like in the Legendary Swordsman 2000.

[9dragonkings]

How come YBQ didn't get that powerful after learning the Bixie Swordplay? I mean he has the Huashan sword skills, and the Purple Twilight Manual plus 30 plus years of internal. He was pretty powerful already I would've expected him to be more powerful after learning Bixie Swordplay.

And Bixie Swordplay the Lin Family has is it complete like Sunflower Manual? And How come DFBB is able to master Sunflower Manual without castration? I guess at the end she learned the final technique Phoenix Reborn like in the Legendary Swordsman 2000.

YBQ was indeed powerful what made you think he is not. It just that Dugu 9 Jian > Sunflower Manual. If you mean the cave scene. Most characters would flee too if they can't see their opponents even DFBB. Only characters with sword arts with solid techniques can survive in defensive position while a group of swordsman slashes away in that context.


In this story which is different from the novel. DFBB had what we wuxia fans called a rare body with unfathomed wuxia potential mixed with exceptional observation of wuxia techniques, her master commented that she is exceptionally tuned to learning martial arts after he notices that she can see his needle technique which was moving beyond human perceptions. He felt arm and notice that her exceptionally body is tuned for wuxia. In this story it is presumed that her wuxia intellect, body and tenacity for wuxia aided her in overcoming the prerequisites for Sunflower Manual. Plus she herself noted that it would take years to fully mastered the manual which there was a huge time lapse in the series. She had the body, intellect, and "time" to do so. In wuxia nothing is set in stone techniques get created and overcome with new techniques in generations ahead.

[Mido-Ban]

okay lol. so i just finished rewatching state of divinity 2000 with richie ren and anita. in that version rwx says that the sun flower came from the palace from an enunch, then somehow went to shaolin. then the two hua shan leaders copied it, then that is the current sunflower manual the sunmoon sect has n that dffb learned. so basically dffb sunflower manual is an abridged version, not complete and it is that powerful. then the bixie swordplay is just another shorten version compared to the sunflower so I believe thats y ybq is not as powerful as he should become since he didnt learn the sunflower manual.

then in steven ma and fann wong version dffb learns the phoenix revive and thats how she faked her death and came back to life at the end. so wouldn't she just die and come back to life again?

this version is pretty good just wished the fight scenes were have been better choreographed, longer, and better cgi.

[KaiDamien]

Just finished watching this series... When I first realized that they were changing the story I immediately lowered my expectations .Personally I have no problem if the tv series changes the story as long as it's enjoyable, but I get a feeling it may not be enjoyable which is why I lowered my expectations. Surprisingly it exceeded my ( lowered) expectations and I even managed to finish it ,unlike Tian Ya Ming Yue Dao's adaptation. I do love the way the show makes me laugh occasionally , but in the end even if I felt that it was better then I expected, it still had a lot of problems.

One of my favorite parts in the novel is when LHC learns Du Gu Jiu Jian. And the tv series completely kills the scene ; not even half of the 9 sword styles were mentioned and they were not even properly explained. RYY and LHC's romance felt so weak , the tv series made it as if LHC has no other choice but to choose RYY as if the whole romance plot is forced upon them. The way they showed Lin Pinzhi at the end seems to suggest to non-novel readers that there might be a sequel. Okay I better stop my rant about the plot here.There are many problems with the story that I'm sure you all know about.


The next major glaring problem is with the action. As the studio's CGI capabilities goes up, the quality of the action sequences goes down. They love sacrificing action choreography for CGI. I have no problems with lousy CGI, but damn why can't they use the CGI on meaningful scenes and not on scenes that doesn't exist in the novels like LHC turning into smoke, the bronze 'monks' in Shaolin's secret passage etc etc. The last time I saw decent action in a wuxia tv adaptation would probably be Legend of the Condor Heroes '08. With the way TYMYD and this adaptation have been, I have nearly given up on wuxia tv adaptation. I better brace myself for bad story and ancient fantasy style CGI action for upcoming tv adaptations.

Just curious, how did this tv series fare in terms of ratings?

[shangster]

okay lol. so i just finished rewatching state of divinity 2000 with richie ren and anita. in that version rwx says that the sun flower came from the palace from an enunch, then somehow went to shaolin. then the two hua shan leaders copied it, then that is the current sunflower manual the sunmoon sect has n that dffb learned. so basically dffb sunflower manual is an abridged version, not complete and it is that powerful. then the bixie swordplay is just another shorten version compared to the sunflower so I believe thats y ybq is not as powerful as he should become since he didnt learn the sunflower manual.

then in steven ma and fann wong version dffb learns the phoenix revive and thats how she faked her death and came back to life at the end. so wouldn't she just die and come back to life again?

this version is pretty good just wished the fight scenes were have been better choreographed, longer, and better cgi.

None of those version were canon with the novel. Well, the Richie Ren version is the closest to the novel of the three, or maybe not, it's been over 12 years since I've seen that version.

I believe that this is one of those plot inconsistencies in JY's novels that he has to revise his work over from time to time. If the two Huashan brothers copied the manual, one copied the beginning to the middle while the other copied the middle to the end, then there should be no conflict between the two of them when they went back to Huashan to combine their stolen work. But there were conflict between the two because they couldn't decipher the manual's secret. Now, this only makes sense if they somehow made mistake in copying the manual. But if they did make mistake, then DFBB wouldn't be able to master the Sunflower martial arts because the copy that he has is the exact copy that the Huashan brothers replicated from Shaolin. Though it didn't change the plot or anything significant, this is one of those minor mistake in JY's "Smiling, Proud, Wanderer"

Now, the abridged version of the Sunflower manual is the one derived from the Shaolin monk. After examining the manual, the monk came to Huashan to try to decipher some of its contents to the brothers, and explain that it is dangerous and they shouldn't practice it. He later was obsessed with its secret that he recreated the manual through his memory and his own interpretation and understanding. The version he created didn't have all of the contents of the original manual (the one that the huashan brothers had in their possession), but its core teaching remains the same -- that is to castrate in order to learn its internal energy, which is required to learn its martial art of using needles and super speed movement.

By analogy, I think YBQ has to be stronger than LHC -- that is, before LHC mastered the Shaolin internal energy martial art at the end of the novel.

DFBB is the strongest character in the novel, and that it took LHC, Ren Ying Yin, her father and right hand man to have a chance of beating him. And they only did so because DFBB was distracted by his male lover. If it wasn't for his male lover, their combined effort would have been futile. Basically, DFBB is the "Sweeper Monk" of Smiling, Proud.

YBQ, while he didn't master the original Sunflower manual, he did master the abridged version of it, which contains its core martial arts and technique. In addition, he also master the violent mist energy as well as being an above average swordsman. YBQ should definitely be much stronger than LHC if they were to fight one on one.

[wuxiarocks]

State of Divinity 96 is still the best. Not only it stick the closest to the novel but they explain everything clearly in that. They got all the characters right and the fate of each characters right as well.

LHC technically did not defeat any of the suppose stronger enemy, a bit of luck and tactic helped him. YBQ, DFBB, RWX they were all powerful and the 96 adaptation showcases that well.

Where as this version a character strength is powerful in one scene and weak the next...

Nothing here is consistent, not even the characters or plot. Especially the plot.

When LHC can't even decide which girl he should stick with, you know we have a problem.

And yes, the Sunflower manual and the Evil Resisting Swordplay was explained very well in the 96 version as well. They took their time explaining it in details without dragging it.

[shangster]

As I've said earlier, I can live with changing the plot, which was why I gave this series a try. However, everything else was not what I thought a wuxia series is about. Forget about the plot and characterizations, I just don't see how one can be a true wuxia fan and expect to like this series. Maybe this is the kind of theme and presentation that future wuxia series will continue, and if it is, sorry, but I have no interest in it.

To me, Wuxia series is about an adventurous journey, and coming of age type of theme. It is a mixed balance of imaginative and realism.

Maybe I'm just a sucker for nostalgia, but I simply loved the 80's and 90's wuxia series produced by TVB. While they weren't close perfect, they were adventurous, dark and serious, but at the same time, comedic and romantic.

If Swordsman 2013 was a fantasy genre series (ala Chinese Paladin), I would say it was a decent series. But it's not, it's supposed to be wuxia, and to me, nothing is wuxia about this series, except for it's storyline.

As a wuxia genre, I really cannot stand the theme and presentation of this series. The over the top CGI -- people just fly over mountains like some kind of fairies. The bright use of color, especially pink and purple make up on female casts. And of course, the inconsistent plot. Again, I don't mind if the producer wants to change the plot, but they have to at least make it consistent with the storyline and do some justice to the novel itself. Obviously, the producer was trying to appeal to the younger generation of wuxia fans, and maybe he achieved that.

[shangster]

State of Divinity 96 is still the best. Not only it stick the closest to the novel but they explain everything clearly in that. They got all the characters right and the fate of each characters right as well.

LHC technically did not defeat any of the suppose stronger enemy, a bit of luck and tactic helped him. YBQ, DFBB, RWX they were all powerful and the 96 adaptation showcases that well.

Where as this version a character strength is powerful in one scene and weak the next...

Nothing here is consistent, not even the characters or plot. Especially the plot.

When LHC can't even decide which girl he should stick with, you know we have a problem.

And yes, the Sunflower manual and the Evil Resisting Swordplay was explained very well in the 96 version as well. They took their time explaining it in details without dragging it.

It's pretty much a consensus that SoD '96 is the best adaptation, and really, the only version that truly did some justice to the novel. What I really love about that adaptation were the script and strong casts (and supporting casts). The main casts left a really memorable impression on the audience, maybe except for Feuna Leung -- I thought she was a bit too old to play Ren Ying Ying lol. The series itself is not close to perfect by any mean -- cheap customs, no exotic scenery, stage production, and cheap choreography. It was a low budget production. But it made up for everything else -- casts, plot, storyline, acting, background music and script.

[9dragonkings]

As I've said earlier, I can live with changing the plot, which was why I gave this series a try. However, everything else was not what I thought a wuxia series is about. Forget about the plot and characterizations, I just don't see how one can be a true wuxia fan and expect to like this series. Maybe this is the kind of theme and presentation that future wuxia series will continue, and if it is, sorry, but I have no interest in it.

To me, Wuxia series is about an adventurous journey, and coming of age type of theme. It is a mixed balance of imaginative and realism.

Maybe I'm just a sucker for nostalgia, but I simply loved the 80's and 90's wuxia series produced by TVB. While they weren't close perfect, they were adventurous, dark and serious, but at the same time, comedic and romantic.

If Swordsman 2013 was a fantasy genre series (ala Chinese Paladin), I would say it was a decent series. But it's not, it's supposed to be wuxia, and to me, nothing is wuxia about this series, except for it's storyline.

As a wuxia genre, I really cannot stand the theme and presentation of this series. The over the top CGI -- people just fly over mountains like some kind of fairies. The bright use of color, especially pink and purple make up on female casts. And of course, the inconsistent plot. Again, I don't mind if the producer wants to change the plot, but they have to at least make it consistent with the storyline and do some justice to the novel itself. Obviously, the producer was trying to appeal to the younger generation of wuxia fans, and maybe he achieved that.

I do understand where your coming from because I too am a big fan of wuxia of the 90s and can never forget the Felix Wong as Qiao Feng/t tian long ba bu, but consider that the director stated in an interview he wanted to take this story in a new direction, visually and plot wise during interviews. He did just that. I think people should just watch interviews and reviews before watching so you know what your getting into much like knowing what your buying before paying for it. The 2013 series is in fact more of a fantasy wuxia genre oppose the typical wuxia which is more gritty visually. The 2013 series has elements that promote the mmo game hence the overall CGI and fight scenes are inspired from the mmo game. Example, The fight scene of DFBB and LHC was exactly like the CGI fight scene of the swordman online mmo game. The 2013 is new approach which gather some fans of wuxia and mmo fantasy.

I like the fact that the story paid attention to the emotional aspect of the story.

[9dragonkings]

DFBB dies in this version, but we get to see her smile before the credits roll. The fans have speculated that she was either:
1)A spirit that smilies at LHC happiness before passing into the afterlife
2)Frozen alive until she eventually dies, but similes knowing LHC is happy.
The above due to the sadness that Ying Ying expressed when she was near the lake and the overall plot that indicated a grim fate.

[wuxiarocks]

consider that the director stated in an interview he wanted to take this story in a new direction, visually and plot wise during interviews. He did just that.

Right, except none of his plot were his own. Both visual direction and story direction.

Yu Zheng is well known to steal material from other sources without giving credits, I despise him enough knowing that, but I still gave this series a chance in hoping that the changes would at least be consistent within itself, it wasn't.

LHC flip-flop from being carefree to being an emo hypocrite...At least try to stay consistent to what was established prior. Yu Zheng pretty much took the original story and throw in ideas from other sources not of his own and than drive the whole thing into the ground. That's basically what he did. And some of the new audiences ate it up. I mean it's not their fault they hadn't read the original novel, nor bother to if they're in love with this take.

Here's some example on the plot points.

-LHC and DFBB relationship- this is straight up Bride with White Hair romantic arc...Nothing new here. Boy like girl, girl like boy, boy from good side, girl from evil side, boy uncertain which side to choose, boy gets confuse and wrongfully blame girl for evil act, etc, we've seen it all before. Boy ends up living with some regrets...

-DFBB sacrifice heart for LHC sake- this is pretty much their take on the heart exchange plot from Painted Skin 2.

-DFBB being a female- well, this is pretty much been done, perhaps not to the extent of full gender, but rather using female actor to have a take on the role.

-DFBB causes LHC to be kick out of his sect- this is taken from SOD 96 where RYY causes LHC to confront his master and be expelled. In fact, DFBB took all the good plot points of RYY and become the main heroine in her place, leaving RYY no reason to even be in the show at all.

-YLS almost gets killed by LPZ- LHC rescue YLS from being kill by LPZ, and LHC ends up taking care of the broken heart YLS, who then later meets her demise by LPZ a second time, this is done in SOD 96 as well.

-DFBB falling off cliff- After her fight with LHC, she falls off a cliff and LHC tried to save her, only to watch her fall, this is pretty much taken from Swordsman 2 with Jet Li.

Again, these are just some of the plot points that YZ uses, which is not original, nor are they new to this specific story. Also, this is not even counting all the elements he stole from the MMO/game.

Visually talking, he stole what he found from the game and turn into into live-action, he even goes as far as keeping the same camera angle, etc. It's just plain uninspired on his own part. Even the clothing colors of his actors matches those of the games. DFBB being the most obvious.

I think people should just watch interviews and reviews before watching so you know what your getting into

Maybe Yu Zheng shouldn't make false promises during interviews then, examples being,

"This is the most faithful adaptation to date"

"This has the best fight scenes of them all"

"Fans of both RYY and DFBB will be happy with the results"

All promises claim by the producer himself, all end up proving to be false.

The 2013 series is in fact more of a fantasy wuxia genre oppose the typical wuxia

Switching genre don't excuse poor writing.

The 2013 series has elements that promote the mmo game hence the overall CGI and fight scenes are inspired from the mmo game.

As stated above, "elements" he stole from the game, to justify his lack of original vision.

Example, The fight scene of DFBB and LHC was exactly like the CGI fight scene of the swordman online mmo game.

Of course it was "exactly", it was a rip-off of it.

And yes, there is a difference between inspiration and imitation.

I like the fact that the story paid attention to the emotional aspect of the story.

Except instead of letting the drama grow naturally, they decided to let the drama happen for drama sake, all driven by angst, one in which the original story tried to mock. Carefree is the theme, to live without worry in a world of pain. This is the whole point of the story, there is no point in adapting something if the essence is lost. One can change or alter any characters, plots, or events, but one cannot lose the source material essence.

This is why many fans hated this series. However some who like this series give the haters so little credit, claiming haters does not like changes. This is not all true, it is not the changes of story that causes the hate, but rather the butchering of the story essence, the inconsistent flow of the story and character, etc.

Here's another quick example of inconsistency, LHC practices hard with the zither, than later end up using a flute...What? What was the point of practicing the zither throughout the story if he ends up using a flute instead anyway? Why even bother learning the zither? One small detail sure, but still inconsistent none the less.

In final, most of what I have said here is hard to deny as they are not just opinions but rather facts displayed by the show itself. Yes, if anyone enjoy or like this series, by all mean do so. Just don't think the haters only hate because they hate. There's more reasoning behind the logic for some of us.

To anyone reading this, sorry for the essay, just sharing my thoughts.

[Suet Seung]

Gah...I'm a fan of Joe Chen Qiao En, but what the hell...why she had to choose this project? DFBB was never suppose to have such a big role or appearance onscreen. I haven't watched the series, but why does it seem like her DFBB is dressed like Xiao Long Nu and then some kind of evil eunuch garb in some pictures I've seen online? What did the scriptwriter/director been smoking to come up with this? I'm staying clear of this drama mess, not worth my time.

[shangster]

Suet Seung, if you are expecting a reminiscence of the 90's tvb or the mainland 2001 adaptation, then you would be very disappointed. If you are a fan of the novel and have watched all the other adaptations, and want to watch this one as well, then read what State of Divinity wrote earlier. It is a very fair assessment of this series.

State of Divinity, I agree with your assessment 100%. We watch wuxia series because we are a fan of the genre and its source materials. We don't mind that producers decided to make changes to the plot, but as said several times, it has to be consistent with the storyline and its characters. And we expect it to be a wuxia series with proper settings, tone and theme -- not cutesie, fantasy, girly make up and customs. I think a lot of new, young wuxia fans are more fans of the actors/actresses much more than the genre itself. Nothing is wrong with that, but if they tolerate a series such as this as "good" then they completely miss out on the essence of the genre itself.

Since 2009, I haven't seen an adaptation that has the proper "wuxia element" to it. Maybe this is the direction future wuxia adaptations will take, which to me is very disappointing because I am such a huge fan of this genre.

Anyway, I am done commenting on this series. Good or bad, we all have our own opinions. I am moving on to Demi Gods and Semi Devils, and hopefully it doesn't dissapoint me like The Magic Blade.

[charbydis]

Gah...I'm a fan of Joe Chen Qiao En, but what the hell...why she had to choose this project? DFBB was never suppose to have such a big role or appearance onscreen. I haven't watched the series, but why does it seem like her DFBB is dressed like Xiao Long Nu and then some kind of evil eunuch garb in some pictures I've seen online? What did the scriptwriter/director been smoking to come up with this? I'm staying clear of this drama mess, not worth my time.

To be fair, I think Joe did a good job with what she was given. She is a miscast as the traditional DFBB we have in our minds, but in this character that was set out for her, I thought Joe was good. However, I actually did not like this version of DFBB due to her weaknesses and the way the storyline was played out was horrible.

I FFed most of it cos the CGI gave me headaches and the clashing colours made my eyes sore. The I started FFed more cos of the stupid love story between DFBB and LHC.

If you are not that picky, I think you should watch this series for the following points:
(1) Chen Xiao - for a young actor, I thought he really expressed the change in character of LPZ quite well. He looks as most a male and a she-man.
(2) Yang Rong - I think she is very cute and looks pretty, pls she can act and has chemistry with both Wallace and Chen Xiao.
(3) Howie Huang does a pretty good job as YBQ.

However, the LHC in here really sucks in the plot. Even my liking for Wallace could save it for me. Don't even mention RYY to me.

[9dragonkings]

Right, except none of his plot were his own. Both visual direction and story direction.

Yu Zheng is well known to steal material from other sources without giving credits, I despise him enough knowing that, but I still gave this series a chance in hoping that the changes would at least be consistent within itself, it wasn't.

LHC flip-flop from being carefree to being an emo hypocrite...At least try to stay consistent to what was established prior. Yu Zheng pretty much took the original story and throw in ideas from other sources not of his own and than drive the whole thing into the ground. That's basically what he did. And some of the new audiences ate it up. I mean it's not their fault they hadn't read the original novel, nor bother to if they're in love with this take.

Here's some example on the plot points.

-LHC and DFBB relationship- this is straight up Bride with White Hair romantic arc...Nothing new here. Boy like girl, girl like boy, boy from good side, girl from evil side, boy uncertain which side to choose, boy gets confuse and wrongfully blame girl for evil act, etc, we've seen it all before. Boy ends up living with some regrets...

-DFBB sacrifice heart for LHC sake- this is pretty much their take on the heart exchange plot from Painted Skin 2.

-DFBB being a female- well, this is pretty much been done, perhaps not to the extent of full gender, but rather using female actor to have a take on the role.

-DFBB causes LHC to be kick out of his sect- this is taken from SOD 96 where RYY causes LHC to confront his master and be expelled. In fact, DFBB took all the good plot points of RYY and become the main heroine in her place, leaving RYY no reason to even be in the show at all.

-YLS almost gets killed by LPZ- LHC rescue YLS from being kill by LPZ, and LHC ends up taking care of the broken heart YLS, who then later meets her demise by LPZ a second time, this is done in SOD 96 as well.

-DFBB falling off cliff- After her fight with LHC, she falls off a cliff and LHC tried to save her, only to watch her fall, this is pretty much taken from Swordsman 2 with Jet Li.

Again, these are just some of the plot points that YZ uses, which is not original, nor are they new to this specific story. Also, this is not even counting all the elements he stole from the MMO/game.

Visually talking, he stole what he found from the game and turn into into live-action, he even goes as far as keeping the same camera angle, etc. It's just plain uninspired on his own part. Even the clothing colors of his actors matches those of the games. DFBB being the most obvious.



Maybe Yu Zheng shouldn't make false promises during interviews then, examples being,

"This is the most faithful adaptation to date"

"This has the best fight scenes of them all"

"Fans of both RYY and DFBB will be happy with the results"

All promises claim by the producer himself, all end up proving to be false.



Switching genre don't excuse poor writing.



As stated above, "elements" he stole from the game, to justify his lack of original vision.



Of course it was "exactly", it was a rip-off of it.

And yes, there is a difference between inspiration and imitation.



Except instead of letting the drama grow naturally, they decided to let the drama happen for drama sake, all driven by angst, one in which the original story tried to mock. Carefree is the theme, to live without worry in a world of pain. This is the whole point of the story, there is no point in adapting something if the essence is lost. One can change or alter any characters, plots, or events, but one cannot lose the source material essence.

This is why many fans hated this series. However some who like this series give the haters so little credit, claiming haters does not like changes. This is not all true, it is not the changes of story that causes the hate, but rather the butchering of the story essence, the inconsistent flow of the story and character, etc.

Here's another quick example of inconsistency, LHC practices hard with the zither, than later end up using a flute...What? What was the point of practicing the zither throughout the story if he ends up using a flute instead anyway? Why even bother learning the zither? One small detail sure, but still inconsistent none the less.

In final, most of what I have said here is hard to deny as they are not just opinions but rather facts displayed by the show itself. Yes, if anyone enjoy or like this series, by all mean do so. Just don't think the haters only hate because they hate. There's more reasoning behind the logic for some of us.

To anyone reading this, sorry for the essay, just sharing my thoughts.

I understand your points. In this day and age ideas have been recycled in media. Recycled ideas can be found in almost all forms of media. The above works you mention might have been inspired by other works too. If you look hard enough I'm certain you would find older works that have already use those tropes. Take a look at this site that dedicated on pointing out tropes that have been reused. http://tvtropes.org. So current media is never left uninspired by other works. TV Media today are re-patterning, remolding of past tropes. Though giving credit is important we also have to give credit to the correct source. So to judge if a media is successful or not depends on the viewer rating because this is the most objective test to take as the goal is to entertain.

What I meant before was that by watching the previews we get a glimpse of the product and thus know what to expect. If we don't like we don't watch. No should ever trust advertisement to the word because "flower sellers would always praise their flowers to be best."

I wouldn't say this LHC version was the best, but in my opinion he was solid enough for the plot. He was actually the gentlemen sword that his master suppose to be, ironically. Hence, why he constantly getting into trouble, but also gain allies along his ventures. His outlook on life is different from say DFBB, who believes the strong determines morality due to her experiences with the harsh world. LHC follows the code of xia to the core like other protagonist of wuxia novels. However, this conflicts with his carefree personality so we have the flip and flop carefree to emo nature.
Example, if your an animal lover would you ever be in a relationship with someone who ate dogs.

Just posting my thoughts, respect everyone opinions. Last post because not healthy to dwell on any subject too much when time should be spent wisely such as studying or writing a paper for class. It was great to hear everyone thoughts.

[shangster]

I understand your points. In this day and age ideas have been recycled in media. Recycled ideas can be found in almost all forms of media. The above works you mention might have been inspired by other works too. If you look hard enough I'm certain you would find older works that have already use those tropes. Take a look at this site that dedicated on pointing out tropes that have been reused. http://tvtropes.org. So current media is never left uninspired by other works. TV Media today are re-patterning, remolding of past tropes. Though giving credit is important we also have to give credit to the correct source. So to judge if a media is successful or not depends on the viewer rating because this is the most objective test to take as the goal is to entertain.

Yes, this is definitely true. However, the production that was done before Yu Zheng such as the Jet Li movie and other adaptations were very subtle. But when I watch the way this series was presented, I think it really irked a lot of wuxia fans because the things that he "copy" were very presented in a very "in your face" manner.

What I meant before was that by watching the previews we get a glimpse of the product and thus know what to expect. If we don't like we don't watch. No should ever trust advertisement to the word because "flower sellers would always praise their flowers to be best."

But this is not a movie, it's a series of 45+ episodes. A preview of 10 mins can only give some of the highlights, and we all know that highlights of a certain sword fight isn't what a wuxia series is about. You can choreograph the perfect sword fight, but if everything else suck, then what's the point of it. I can't speak for everyone else, but I gave this series a chance because I am a fan of wuxia genre, and especially a fan of Jin Yong; I am, after all, a part of the crowd that Yu Zheng was targeting with this series.

I wouldn't say this LHC version was the best, but in my opinion he was solid enough for the plot. He was actually the gentlemen sword that his master suppose to be, ironically. Hence, why he constantly getting into trouble, but also gain allies along his ventures. His outlook on life is different from say DFBB, who believes the strong determines morality due to her experiences with the harsh world. LHC follows the code of xia to the core like other protagonist of wuxia novels. However, this conflicts with his carefree personality so we have the flip and flop carefree to emo nature.
Example, if your an animal lover would you ever be in a relationship with someone who ate dogs.

Wallace is not the worst LHC, however, similar to Li Yapeng, Steven Ma and Richie Ren, he was just another actor to play LHC. None of them played the role the way the character was portrayed in the novel. Again, what makes LHC such a likable character among wuxia fans is that he never let his emotion take over his carefree, wine loving nature. This is the essence of LHC; it is because of his positive attitude, even when face with life-death situation, that makes him such a likable person among his jiang-hu friends. No, I'm not saying that he is happy and carefree all the time, because he's not. He expressed great grief and sorrow when he was banned from his martial sect, and when both his martial art sister and foster mother died. However, those sad emotion didn't define who he is. Because when it's all said and done, he went back to his carefree nature. Not to bring up the topic of Jackie Liu, but I think he's just born to play this role. I love the way his LHC interact with other characters. His transition from quick witted, to fun loving, carefree nature and then to sadness is just like the way I imagine the LHC in the novel would react.

Just posting my thoughts, respect everyone opinions. Last post because not healthy to dwell on any subject too much when time should be spent wisely such as studying or writing a paper for class. It was great to hear everyone thoughts.

I think it's actually great that we get to discuss this series the way it is now. And I am really surprised that there aren't "fanboys" of either side to slander at each other.

Also, to the topic of the '96 version. Maybe this is the wrong section to post (but then again, no one visit the TVB section of the forum anyway), I was looking at youtube, searching for SoD '96 to watch because of all this discussion here, I ran into this video review of the '96 version of a wuxia fan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOxM4qsN4a8
He explains it best, that there is a certain "warm, comfort feeling" when he watch SoD '96, even though he has never watch any of the remake before.

[wuxiarocks]

In this day and age ideas have been recycled in media.

Recycling ideas is one thing, blatantly ripping off is another. There is no excuse for that.

What I meant before was that by watching the previews we get a glimpse of the product and thus know what to expect. If we don't like we don't watch.

Trailers can be misleading, it doesn't always represent the quality of the actual product.

No should ever trust advertisement to the word because "flower sellers would always praise their flowers to be best."

Right, but advertisement should tell what the product is, not what it isn't. That is false advertisement.

Yu Zheng said this XAJH is the "most faithful", well it it isn't and that is a lie.

Whether one believe in the seller or not is not the point.

I wouldn't say this LHC version was the best, but in my opinion he was solid enough for the plot. He was actually the gentlemen sword that his master suppose to be, ironically.

Yet ironically, he also became a hypocrite just like his master.

LHC follows the code of xia to the core like other protagonist of wuxia novels. However, this conflicts with his carefree personality so we have the flip and flop carefree to emo nature.
Example, if your an animal lover would you ever be in a relationship with someone who ate dogs.

If they want to make a conflicted character who flip flop between carefree to emo, then they should establish that earlier on. Don't make a carefree character befriend everyone including a rapist, yet all of a sudden when his master said the girl he like is an evil witch that kill people, he goes ruthless on her?

So what if DFBB kill people from the good sect? What does it matter? He killed people too! LHC even killed a member of the supposed good sect as well. So now we are to accept him being angry because someone he likes committed the same crime he did? He's a hypocrite. LHC carefree nature shouldn't even allow him to deny her like that.

Inconsistency is a sign of poor writing. This is exactly that.

I understand you're defending this series as you may have enjoyed it, that's fine, I'm just pointing out its undeniable flaws.

[shangster]

Ok. Changing the subject (or not. lol).

Since we've been discussing DFBB to death, let me ask this question. How would you rank the fighter in Smiling, Proud base on their fighting ability?
My rank would be:
1. DFBB (the eunuch one)


2. YBQ
3. Feng Qing Yang
4. LHC
5. Head Shaolin Monk
6. Ren Wo Xing
7. Master of Wudang Sect
8. Lin Ping Zhi
9. Zuo Leng Chan

My second question is, excluding YBQ, which of the two combination would it take to defeat DFBB?
1. The three sword masters: LHC, Feng Qing Yang, Master of Wudang Sect
2. LHC, Ren Wo Xing, Shaolin Master, master of Wudang Sect.

[Mido-Ban]

Depends on what you mean. Like martial arts alone without any weapons, or including weapons and chi gong? DFBB is not the strongest. I still think FQY and Shaolin monk is stronger then it. Jin Yong did stated the 9 Recluse is far superior then Sun Flower.

By end of novel LHC should be stronger then DFBB imo since he learned that shaolin inner energy technique, combined with his Dugu 9, other sects martial arts, Star Absorbing Skills etc. But in terms of hand to hand melee I believe he is normal. He is useless without his sword unless he uses star absorbing skill.

I think it should be FQY, Shaolin Head, DFBB, LHC, RWX, YBQ, Wudang, XLC, LPZ.

second question. LHC and FQY is already over kill on DFBB since FQY mastered Dugu 9. Then LHC and Shaolin Master would be my second.

[shangster]

Did Jin Yong really stated that the 9 Dugu sword technique is stronger than the Sunflower martial art? I haven't read the novel in such a long time, but I don't remember there's is any direct comparison between the two martial arts, nor was there any between the Evil Resistent sword and 9 dugu. While not as experienced as FQY, LHC himself has mastered the 9 Dugu sword. In addition, he also mastered the Star Sucking skill, and even then he still couldn't defeat DFBB with the help of RWX and two others -- well, technically the couldn't defeat them. Are we overrating Feng Qing Yang a little too high?

What we can judge on is based on analogy. We know that Feng Qing Yang and RWX at some point fought against each other, with FQY most likely the winner. RWX himself is one of the strongest pugilists in Smiling, Proud, Wanderer, meaning that he is probably only 1 or 2 levels behind FQY, since they do have "respect" for one another as martial artists. We also know that the assistant head abbot in Shaolin has a huge among of respect for FQY, which means that FQY is at least on the same, if not 1 level higher than, the head abbot of Shaolin. We also know that The head abbot is at least 1 level stronger than RWX. And finally, we know that RWX is pretty much on the same level as LHC (or maybe a half level behind LHC). Since all of these fighters are the very strongest fighters in SPW, there shouldn't be a large gap in the difference in their martial art skills. If we rank them from 1 to 10, using FQY as the highest ranking:

10 - FQY
09 - Head Abbot Shaolin
08 - RWX; LHC (maybe 8.5)
07 - Wudang master (maybe he's more like 7.5)
06 -
05 - Ren Ying Ying and Xiang Wentian

With their fight against DFBB, we are matching a combined two fighters with a level of 8 and 8.5 and two fighters with a ranking of 5 -- yet, they would have still lose if it's an even playing field. Base on that, I would say there is absolutely no way Feng Qing Yang is as strong as DFBB, let along stronger than him.

This is all just from a fan perspective after all. Looking back, I find it pretty funny that two minor characters would have such big discussion among fans. With all the DFBB love in many adaptations, I'm surprised they haven't produce a version where Feng Qing Yang plays a larger role.

Edit:
I went to another section of the forum and found this very useful thread about of the history of the Sunflower Manual, Huashan's eventual seperation and Feng Qing Yang. Thanks to forum member "bliss", this is his direct translation from the novel itself:
http://www.spcnet.tv/forums/showthre...H#.Udxbq6xqOSo

So with that we can now conclude that DFBB is definitely the strongest character in SPW.

What's also interesting is that YBQ is not only the second strongest character but just may be as strong as (or very close to) DFBB.