Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 51

Thread: At what point do the drawbacks of age outweigh the advantages in wuxia martial arts?

  1. #1
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    24,367

    Default At what point do the drawbacks of age outweigh the advantages in wuxia martial arts?

    Unlike real life, old age is not necessarily a drawback in wuxia fiction...at least not until a certain point. At the end of ROCH, for example, senior Greats East Heretic Wong Yerk See, South Monk 1 Deng, and Central Mischief Chow Bak Tung, each in or approaching his eighties, were much more powerful fighters than they had been twenty, thirty, forty years earlier (deeper inner power plus greater experience). North Hero Gwok Jing, at or nearing his sixties, was just hitting his peak years (for average people, sixty would be past one's prime), and in HSDS, Cheung 3 Fung was better than ever at 100.

    Wuxia elites, powerful and great as they were, were not immortal. There had to be a point when the natural infirmities of old age (slowing reflexes, reduced stamina, more brittle bones, failing senses, etc.) outweighed deepening inner power and experience. But what was that point? Did any of the Greats live long enough to see their martial arts actually *decline* due to age?

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Houston
    Posts
    2,343

    Default

    Well, Greats at high ages may still continue to develop and increase the internal, but when they pass 50, the stamina will start outweighing the internal.

    So 50 should be the best balance of amount of internal+stamina.
    30 is like weaker art+stronger stamina
    70+ is stronger art+weaker stamina.
    So 50 is probably the best balance.
    It was apparent that Yideng's Solitary Yang Finger improved greatly in terms of refinement and power than before in LOCH and I guess most likely Pre 16 Years ROCH. However, each energy takes a lot of energy from Yideng, so I suspect Yideng can't keep energy flowing forever. WCY was also in a similiar case when he used Solitary Yang Finger on OYF.
    法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出“一阳指”功夫,正面拦截。法王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚
    此时一灯大师的“一阳指”功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳平和,但沛然浑厚,无可与抗

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Posts
    3,580

    Default How badly does age affect your martial arts?

    We all know age affects performance, in all the Yang Guo debates. But to what extent? When does age start overcoming your advancement in internal, if you actively train?

    Basically my question boiled down is:

    Is 90 Year old Yideng weaker than 70 Year old Yideng? If so, then are post 16 ROCH Greats inferior to pre 16 ROCH Greats? Where was the tipping point where age >> internal advancement?

    If 90 Year old Yideng is stronger, then age should not really be mentioned, as this is his strongest "form".

    Assume that the characters stay healthy and deteriorate as naturally as they can in wuxia terms. Sickness, etc doesn't count.

  4. #4
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    18,425

    Default

    I'm interested to figure this out too.

    I don't recall Jin Yong giving us a concrete answer. He has provided examples in some novels about certain elements of martial arts increasing and/or decreasing with age, but he never said flat out whether the younger version of the person is stronger than the older version, or vice versa.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Posts
    3,580

    Default

    I remember in HSDS where JY made a comment that Yin Tianzheng's body was unique in that he had the vigor and spirit of a young person even though he was well advanced in years. Yet when it came down to it, he still died from exhaustion after fighting the Du monks. How old was he then?

    There aren't many examples of people fighting 20 years earlier or later, and I guess it's hard to get a concrete answer. How old was Xie Xun? He did not seem to be affected 20 years later when he fought with JinHua.

  6. #6
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    18,425

    Default

    In Yin Tianzheng's case, it seems like although he could fight like a young man, it does take toll on his health.

    But it shows that physical strength plays a more important role to old people. It seems when one has reached old age, having strong physical strength can greatly help his stamina. For example, Post-16 years GWM should be in his 70s, but his fighting record showed no sign of an old man. We know he was described as having amazing physical strength.
    Last edited by PJ; 09-13-09 at 04:53 PM.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  7. #7
    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Currently DC
    Posts
    6,660

    Default

    Likewise, although Zhou Botong was said to have actually gotten stronger as he aged, when it came down to it, his stamina was still weaker.

    It seems age takes a toll on stamina no matter what in most cases.
    Read the latest chapters of Coiling Dragon at Wuxia World!

  8. #8
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    18,425

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    ...Zhou Botong was said to have actually gotten stronger as he aged...,
    I'm curious how it was phrased in the novel.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  9. #9
    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Currently DC
    Posts
    6,660

    Default

    他生性朴实,一生无忧无虑,内功又深,兼之在山中采食首乌、茯苓、玉蜂蜜浆等大补之物,须发竟至转色。即是 不谙内功之人,老齿落后重生,筋骨愈老愈健之事,亦在所多有。周伯通虽非道士,但深得道家冲虚养生的要旨, 因此年近百龄,仍是精神矍铄,这一大半可说是天性使然。

    So perhaps not so much stronger per se, but recovered some of his original vigour/strength/vitality that age had stolen from him.
    Read the latest chapters of Coiling Dragon at Wuxia World!

  10. #10
    Senior Member flamer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    绿柳山庄
    Posts
    2,707

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    Basically my question boiled down is:

    Is 90 Year old Yideng weaker than 70 Year old Yideng? If so, then are post 16 ROCH Greats inferior to pre 16 ROCH Greats? Where was the tipping point where age >> internal advancement?
    IMO Yes. Post 16 ROCH Greats were weaker than Pre 16 ROCH Greats, maybe even Greats between LOCH-ROCH.

    There are numerous quotes scattered around start of ROCH, pre-16, post-16 showing how older Greats lose stamina and obvious detriment to their fighting ability.

    Good example is GJ vs OYF in that palm exchange. It seemingly ended as a draw as GJ/OYF spit blood at the same instant. However OYF had a much rougher time recovering from that clash. Reason? Age.
    黄蓉见丈夫气定神闲,心知已无危险

    见欧阳锋躺在神像前的几个蒲团之上,神情委顿,呼吸微弱。他与郭靖
    所受之伤情形相若,只是郭靖方当年富力强,复元甚速,他却年纪老迈,精力已远为不如

    Other examples are ZBT vs YG, feeling tired after hundredish stances etc etc

    For more examples and analysis, you can look at http://www.spcnet.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=27266

  11. #11
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    18,425

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by flamer View Post
    IMO Yes. Post 16 ROCH Greats were weaker than Pre 16 ROCH Greats, maybe even Greats between LOCH-ROCH.

    There are numerous quotes scattered around start of ROCH, pre-16, post-16 showing how older Greats lose stamina and obvious detriment to their fighting ability.

    Good example is GJ vs OYF in that palm exchange. It seemingly ended as a draw as GJ/OYF spit blood at the same instant. However OYF had a much rougher time recovering from that clash. Reason? Age.
    黄蓉见丈夫气定神闲,心知已无危险

    见欧阳锋躺在神像前的几个蒲团之上,神情委顿,呼吸微弱。他与郭靖
    所受之伤情形相若,只是郭靖方当年富力强,复元甚速,他却年纪老迈,精力已远为不如

    Other examples are ZBT vs YG, feeling tired after hundredish stances etc etc

    For more examples and analysis, you can look at http://www.spcnet.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=27266
    Just because they have weaker stamina, doesn't mean they are weaker overall. For all we know, in the decades after their prime, they have greatly strengthened their internal energy.

    It is undeniable that both Yang Guo and Golden Wheel Monk greatly improved after the 16 years -- this was mentioned numerous times in the novel. The old Greats had no trouble matching these 2 greatly improved young Greats for a lengthy duration. Can the Pre-16 years Greats match someone who is significantly better than them? I doubt it. Therefore, I believe the old Greats did improve somewhat in the 16 years, as their keeping up with Yang Guo and GWM suggests.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  12. #12
    Senior Member flamer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    绿柳山庄
    Posts
    2,707

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    Just because they have weaker stamina, doesn't mean they are weaker overall. For all we know, in the decades after their prime, they have greatly strengthened their internal energy.
    Oh yes it does. YG would've won against ZBT/HYS/YD just because of age. GJ would also have won against OYF if he pushed for it. OYF was in no state to fight while GJ was already recovering quick.

    We have no evidence that Greats improved their internal energy, rather it was probably some refinement.

    It is undeniable that both Yang Guo and Golden Wheel Monk greatly improved after the 16 years -- this was mentioned numerous times in the novel. The old Greats had no trouble matching these 2 greatly improved young Greats for a lengthy duration. Can the Pre-16 years Greats match someone who is significantly better than them? I doubt it. Therefore, I believe the old Greats did improve somewhat in the 16 years, as their keeping up with Yang Guo and GWM suggests.
    Actually the old Greats fought YG/GWM for a VERY SMALL amount of time. It will be weird if they can't hold their own in that time. Even HUANG RONG managed to stay equal to OYF for dozens of stances.

  13. #13
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    18,425

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by flamer View Post
    Oh yes it does. YG would've won against ZBT/HYS/YD just because of age. GJ would also have won against OYF if he pushed for it. OYF was in no state to fight while GJ was already recovering quick.
    I think you're assuming the old Greats' internal energy did not improve while their stamina kept decreasing. I don't think this is the case at all. More below.

    We have no evidence that Greats improved their internal energy, rather it was probably some refinement.
    There is some evidence. I quote myself from the other topic:

    You'll recall that in Huang Yaoshi's case, it was mentioned that as he aged, his physical strength goes down BUT his internal energy goes up.

    If we believe Huang Yaoshi's judgment on his own progress, then we should believe the Greats continued to improve their internal energy with age, while their stamina continued to decrease.

    Actually the old Greats fought YG/GWM for a VERY SMALL amount of time. It will be weird if they can't hold their own in that time. Even HUANG RONG managed to stay equal to OYF for dozens of stances.
    Zhou and Yang sparred for over 100 stances.

    The old Greats should be able to hold their own for that long, but if the other party is significantly stronger (which would be the case if old Greats did not improve internal energy at all), there would be signs of struggling pretty soon--and there wasn't, other than Yideng's old age going into effect against GWM.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  14. #14
    Senior Member flamer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    绿柳山庄
    Posts
    2,707

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    I think you're assuming the old Greats' internal energy did not improve while their stamina kept decreasing. I don't think this is the case at all. More below.

    There is some evidence. I quote myself from the other topic:

    You'll recall that in Huang Yaoshi's case, it was mentioned that as he aged, his physical strength goes down BUT his internal energy goes up.

    If we believe Huang Yaoshi's judgment on his own progress, then we should believe the Greats continued to improve their internal energy with age, while their stamina continued to decrease.
    I do remember the HYS statement and I think it refers to a certain refinement of internal energy. Even if the actual level of internal improved, I think other evidence suggests that overall fighting ability did decrease.

    Zhou and Yang sparred for over 100 stances.

    The old Greats should be able to hold their own for that long, but if the other party is significantly stronger (which would be the case if old Greats did not improve internal energy at all), there would be signs of struggling pretty soon--and there wasn't, other than Yideng's old age going into effect against GWM.
    100 stances is no surprise considering the great difference between Huang Rong and OYF still allowed HR to fight OYF to a standstill for dozens of stances. ZBT/YG difference is nowhere near as large as that.

  15. #15
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    18,425

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by flamer View Post
    I do remember the HYS statement and I think it refers to a certain refinement of internal energy. Even if the actual level of internal improved, I think other evidence suggests that overall fighting ability did decrease.
    May I request the evidence, other than what you've presented in this topic thus far (which shows decline in stamina, but does not prove decline overall)?

    100 stances is no surprise considering the great difference between Huang Rong and OYF still allowed HR to fight OYF to a standstill for dozens of stances. ZBT/YG difference is nowhere near as large as that.
    100+ stances is what they fought for, but I think they could have easily dueled for hundreds of more before a victor could be determined.

    I mean, reportedly, it took GWM about 20 hours to win against Qiu Qianren...
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  16. #16
    Member timeless's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    127

    Default

    Age has its toll on the body, its still up to the individual how they condition and strengthen themselves. Someone younger with the same martial expertise may have the advantage by way of speed and strength but not necessary by experience and skills. But size does matter when it comes to decisive power generated where all factors being quite equal.
    The greats in ROCH were written to be equals in prowess though we have to keep in mind that Yg was at his prime when the greats were very old men with Gwm & Gj intheir 50s/60s and Yg in his 30s. Yg was a one handed cripple while the others have much more to offer in advantage and Zbt was getting progressively younger and more knowledgable. So you decide who were more equal among the equals.

  17. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    483

    Default

    I think age got to do with how long someone can last.

    For example, YD at age 60 can blast Yiyang Finger for 2 hours.

    However, YD at age 90 can blast a STRONGER Yiyang Finger (due to better internal, refinement), but he can only do so for like 1 hour.

    This is how I see it.

  18. #18
    Senior Member flamer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    绿柳山庄
    Posts
    2,707

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    May I request the evidence, other than what you've presented in this topic thus far (which shows decline in stamina, but does not prove decline overall)?
    Very well...

    HYS' statement 力气已因年老而衰减,内功却是越练越深

    The classic YD statement.
    但自己当日盛年之时,却也无这等充沛的内力,此时年老力衰,自更不如

    No matter what the 'internal' was referring to, YD saw himself weaker in that respect as he is older.

    ZBT: 两人激斗将近半个时辰,周伯通毕竟年老气血已衰,渐渐内力不如初斗之时

    1 hour, that's nothing in Greats' level combat. Can we imagine that in Pre 16 or LOCH? ZBT felt his internal couldn't keep up after 1 hour and the reason was age.

    When OYF vs GJ, it was said that his martial arts were no inferior to GJ but his age is an imperiment.

    And some more phrases scattered around ROCH with reference to the age issue but I guess you should get the picture now.

    100+ stances is what they fought for, but I think they could have easily dueled for hundreds of more before a victor could be determined.

    I mean, reportedly, it took GWM about 20 hours to win against Qiu Qianren...
    I agree so but it was still a short fight.

    The GWM vs QQR was a massive plot device Beats me why didn't Ci'en die from the fight.

  19. #19
    Senior Member odbayarb2000's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Hidden Mountains
    Posts
    649

    Default

    Yideng was really old. He was at least 110 years old when ROCH ended . (according to wuxiapeda.com)

    HYS and ZBT were probably younger. As stated in 2nd Edition, ZBT was nearing or around 100 when he fought YG. So old age must have taken huge toll on their bodies.

    I believe 70 is a ideal age to be prime. Abundance and refinement of the internal energy reach its highest level. Further improvement would be cancelled out with decreasing stamina.
    So 100 is very old age to kicking arses around.
    Last edited by odbayarb2000; 09-14-09 at 11:42 AM.
    "Big Hero Linghu kills frogs with the Dugu Nine Swords!”


  20. #20
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    155

    Default

    I don't see it exactly as clear cut. As one age one gains better and purer inner power as well as more experience/technique, but vigor and stamina will diminish.

    So I think it depends on how old the person is. For example, with GJ going from 30s to 50s, the improvement in inner power probably far out weight what little lost due to age. With YG going from 20 to 30s he can only get stronger.

    But same cannot be said from going from 70 to 90. Even then, the 90 year old probably got better in certain areas (like inner energy) while other areas got weaker (like stamina and speed).
    Last edited by Dimeron; 09-14-09 at 01:44 PM.

Similar Threads

  1. If you were to learn Wuxia martial arts...
    By yittz in forum Wuxia Fiction
    Replies: 40
    Last Post: 10-28-20, 04:56 AM
  2. Replies: 24
    Last Post: 07-30-19, 12:32 PM
  3. Kicking martial arts in Wuxia
    By Ken Cheng in forum Wuxia Fiction
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: 01-16-14, 02:53 AM
  4. Age for learning martial arts.
    By immakiku in forum Wuxia Fiction
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 05-31-04, 11:28 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •