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Thread: The Deun Kings and Princes of Dali: the *best* bosses to work for in wulin?

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default The Deun Kings and Princes of Dali: the *best* bosses to work for in wulin?

    Let's face it: being an underling in wulin generally sucks. Most wulin underlings serve cruel masters who demand everything (including lives) from their minions, but treat such followers with disregard and disrespect. Rewards are slight and punishments are severe.

    The one exception seems to be the Deun line of kings and princes in Dali. Aside from Great Evil # 1 Deun Yin Hing (and even he treated his Great Evil comrades fairly well), Deun Jing Ming, Deun Jing Tsun, Deun Yu, and Deun Chi Hing treated their followers not as slaves or servants, but as brothers and equals. The Deun princes always demonstrated concern for their underlings, and treated them respectfully...practically as peers. It's little wonder that those who served the Deun princes did so with great loyalty.

    If there were better bosses to work for than the Deuns in wulin, I can't name them.

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    Senior Member Ace High's Avatar
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    How about Wei Xiao Bao? He was very good to his subordinates and very generous in giving rewards (sometimes given on a whim). He also wasn't jealous of his subordinates abilities and submitted reports of their contributions (others would simply claim the merits for themselves).
    You plant a garden and the flowers do not bloom, you poke a stick in the mud and it grows into a tree

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ace High View Post
    How about Wei Xiao Bao? He was very good to his subordinates and very generous in giving rewards (sometimes given on a whim). He also wasn't jealous of his subordinates abilities and submitted reports of their contributions (others would simply claim the merits for themselves).
    Wai Siu Bo sometimes would at least toy with the idea of selling out his guys to save his own skin (his attempted murder for Dor Lung), and if he was stressed out, he sometimes threw tantrums and insulted his men. The Deun princes, however, were always polite and cordial to their subordinates, and didn't demand that their men die for them (although they would do so very willingly, as Chui Man Lei did in DGSD).

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    Senior Member Ace High's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Wai Siu Bo sometimes would at least toy with the idea of selling out his guys to save his own skin (his attempted murder for Dor Lung), and if he was stressed out, he sometimes threw tantrums and insulted his men. The Deun princes, however, were always polite and cordial to their subordinates, and didn't demand that their men die for them (although they would do so very willingly, as Chui Man Lei did in DGSD).
    WXB didn't 'toy' with the idea of selling his subordinates just to save his own skin. He did that out of necessity to save the Heaven and Earth Society and Mu Family members. He was clearly disturbed when he stabbed Dolong. The only that got insulted was Shi Lang, and that after Shi Lang purposely flaunted his achievements by not removing Taiwan's emblems on the captured warships.
    You plant a garden and the flowers do not bloom, you poke a stick in the mud and it grows into a tree

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    I would say Cheung Sam Fung is among the best as well. He treated his students as family and took great care of them, minus the case that he killed Song Qing Shu.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    I would say Cheung Sam Fung is among the best as well.
    He wasn't really a "boss" in the same sense, though. His disciples were his followers, but not his employees (e.g. their service wasn't altogether voluntary and he didn't pay them).

    He treated his students as family and took great care of them, minus the case that he killed Song Qing Shu.
    Yeah, but Sung Ching Sheu deserved it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Let's face it: being an underling in wulin generally sucks. Most wulin underlings serve cruel masters who demand everything (including lives) from their minions, but treat such followers with disregard and disrespect. Rewards are slight and punishments are severe.

    The one exception seems to be the Deun line of kings and princes in Dali. Aside from Great Evil # 1 Deun Yin Hing (and even he treated his Great Evil comrades fairly well), Deun Jing Ming, Deun Jing Tsun, Deun Yu, and Deun Chi Hing treated their followers not as slaves or servants, but as brothers and equals. The Deun princes always demonstrated concern for their underlings, and treated them respectfully...practically as peers. It's little wonder that those who served the Deun princes did so with great loyalty.

    If there were better bosses to work for than the Deuns in wulin, I can't name them.
    Hi agree with most of what you say. However is DJT was your boss you would have to keep him away from your wife/sister & daughter, in fact anything in a skirt with a pulse.

    I think Zhang wu ji would also make a good boss, based on how he treated his Ming cult subordinates.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 426mak View Post
    Hi agree with most of what you say. However is DJT was your boss you would have to keep him away from your wife/sister & daughter, in fact anything in a skirt with a pulse.
    It's little wonder that those four bodyguards that served Deun Jing Tsun appeared to be bachelors.

    I think Zhang wu ji would also make a good boss, based on how he treated his Ming cult subordinates.
    True. Cheung Mo Gei was and would be an awesome boss to work for.

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    Wei Xiaobao had another plus over Zhang Wuji, even disregarding the rewards they could offer and their treatment of their men. The guards had an enormous amount of fun under WXB, doing different and frequently outrageous things that would never have been acceptable under any normal boss. In contrast, despite their respect for him as an undoubtedly great man, many of ZWJ's subordinates considered him a bit of a killjoy. Yang Guo and Linghu Chong's subordinates also followed them for the fun as much as anything more honourable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pannonian View Post
    Wei Xiaobao had another plus over Zhang Wuji, even disregarding the rewards they could offer and their treatment of their men. The guards had an enormous amount of fun under WXB, doing different and frequently outrageous things that would never have been acceptable under any normal boss. In contrast, despite their respect for him as an undoubtedly great man, many of ZWJ's subordinates considered him a bit of a killjoy. Yang Guo and Linghu Chong's subordinates also followed them for the fun as much as anything more honourable.
    There's a difference between a fun boss and a good boss. WXB although fun would not think twice about selling out/killing a lackey if he could benefit from it. I don't remember YG or LC having a lot of followers. Friends yes but that's no really the same thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 426mak View Post
    There's a difference between a fun boss and a good boss. WXB although fun would not think twice about selling out/killing a lackey if he could benefit from it. I don't remember YG or LC having a lot of followers. Friends yes but that's no really the same thing.
    Actually WXB went as far as disobeying the emperor in order to avoid harming his lackeys. When Kang Xi wanted to let the prisoners escape so they could be followed, he suggested killing a guard or two to make the escape plausible. WXB didn't want to do that, and planned to knock out the guards with drugs rather than involve them in a lethal fight. As it happened, the empress dowager sent a eunuch to arrest WXB, which made the plan even more effective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pannonian View Post
    Actually WXB went as far as disobeying the emperor in order to avoid harming his lackeys. When Kang Xi wanted to let the prisoners escape so they could be followed, he suggested killing a guard or two to make the escape plausible. WXB didn't want to do that, and planned to knock out the guards with drugs rather than involve them in a lethal fight. As it happened, the empress dowager sent a eunuch to arrest WXB, which made the plan even more effective.
    I am not saying WXB was incapable of being loyal and humane at times. But that given his nature, if he had to choose between saving himself or a lackey we know which he would choose.

    In contrast ZWJ and the Deuns the idea of selling out someone else would not even cross their mind. Thus making them the idea bosses (excepting DTS skirt chasing).

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    Quote Originally Posted by 426mak View Post
    I am not saying WXB was incapable of being loyal and humane at times. But that given his nature, if he had to choose between saving himself or a lackey we know which he would choose.

    In contrast ZWJ and the Deuns the idea of selling out someone else would not even cross their mind. Thus making them the idea bosses (excepting DTS skirt chasing).
    We know that he'd choose himself over any of his wives, so his lackeys are in good company. But other than that, WXB goes out of his way to avoid having to harm his subordinates and friends, no matter what the situation. Even knowing that Kang Xi had his eye constantly on him after his many misdemanours, he still contrived to rescue Mao Shiba and avenge his master. It's typical of WXB that when KX directly confronted him with the choice between MSB and WXB, he tried to find some kind of bargain that would evade that choice. WXB isn't a hero, but other than that he's as good a boss as you could hope for, always looking out for your interests and rewarding you handsomely. Some of his subordinates/friends were heroes of a kind which WXB wasn't, but they still regarded WXB as their chief, based on his conduct towards them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pannonian View Post
    We know that he'd choose himself over any of his wives, so his lackeys are in good company. But other than that, WXB goes out of his way to avoid having to harm his subordinates and friends, no matter what the situation. Even knowing that Kang Xi had his eye constantly on him after his many misdemanours, he still contrived to rescue Mao Shiba and avenge his master. It's typical of WXB that when KX directly confronted him with the choice between MSB and WXB, he tried to find some kind of bargain that would evade that choice. WXB isn't a hero, but other than that he's as good a boss as you could hope for, always looking out for your interests and rewarding you handsomely. Some of his subordinates/friends were heroes of a kind which WXB wasn't, but they still regarded WXB as their chief, based on his conduct towards them.
    I think we are drifting of point here. The original thread asked if there are better bosses than the Duen kings/princes. WXB has his good points, but I still insist ZWJ is the only person who might fit the bill.

    Example, would you prefer a boss who gives you a lot of material goods, but you can't trust to always back you up. Or a boss that gives you less but you can place 100% of your trust in.

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    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    When in the novel has Wei Xiaobao ever betrayed or sold out a friend or subordinate? I think the only time he has ever done so was with Chief Dolong, but even then, it was only to rescue an even larger number of friends, at huge personal risk to himself.

    I think Wei Xiaobao is a better boss, in large part because he gets shit done for his subordinates, almost all of whom were better off as a result of him. Zhang Wuji is...well, his leadership of the Ming cult really was rather meh.
    Read the latest chapters of Coiling Dragon at Wuxia World!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    When in the novel has Wei Xiaobao ever betrayed or sold out a friend or subordinate? I think the only time he has ever done so was with Chief Dolong, but even then, it was only to rescue an even larger number of friends, at huge personal risk to himself.

    I think Wei Xiaobao is a better boss, in large part because he gets shit done for his subordinates, almost all of whom were better off as a result of him. Zhang Wuji is...well, his leadership of the Ming cult really was rather meh.
    A lot of times he definitely placed somewhat personal matters above the Cult's. Not to say he was wrong for doing so, but he definitely was not ruthless enough to be undertaking the huge task of overthrowing a century old dynasty.

    Going to a remote island personally to pick up your grandfather is certainly very filial, but it was definitely somewhat unnecessary considering he could have just given some directions to expert seamen. To his knowledge, Xie Xun was not in any danger except for being stuck on a remote island. He was under ten or so at the time of leaving, so I really doubt he could do more than be a figurehead on a ship navigating for him.

    Bringing your biggest rival in Zhao Min was incredibly dumb too. He is a normal person with normal emotions that is a great friend and ally, but definitely not a great leader or meant for greatness really.

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    Senior Member Ace High's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 426mak View Post
    I am not saying WXB was incapable of being loyal and humane at times. But that given his nature, if he had to choose between saving himself or a lackey we know which he would choose.
    Which is a logical and sound decision. WXB’s death over a lackey (or even lackeys) will affect both KX and TDH enormously. KX will lose a capable and trusted helper, and Green Wood Hall will be left leaderless.

    WXB has managed to uncover and eventually disrupt WSG’s alliance with Russia, Mongolia and Tibet was a great contribution and played a major factor in Qing’s overall battle plan. If WXB chose to save a lackey at the cost of his own life, KX will have to fight a war from all fronts, instead of from the south and south-west only.

    The death of Guan An Ji is a good example. Guan’s death has no visible effect, as his function (if any) can be taken over by any members. However, the same isn’t true for WXB. There was no capable and competent leader that able to replace WXB as the leader Green Wood Hall. This is evident from the fact the Green Wood Hall was still leaderless even though WXB has returned from his northern expedition. He was absent from the Capital for at least ten years but there were no replacement leader during the period. Furthermore, WXB’s power and influence in the Qing court has saved a lot of rebellion members from certain death.

    Quote Originally Posted by 426mak View Post
    In contrast ZWJ and the Deuns the idea of selling out someone else would not even cross their mind. Thus making them the idea bosses (excepting DTS skirt chasing).
    For a friend, ZWJ will sacrifice the world. For the live of one of his friend, he did not hesitate to sacrifice hundreds or thousands of others. While WXB will (hesitantly) sacrifice the live of one in order to save the many.

    ZWJ brought along his Ming Cult’s entire top brass to pick up XX, while achieving nothing substantial for the rebellion against the Yuan (wasting valuable time and resources for nothing). On other hand, WXB sent messengers to summon his Green Wood Hall’s subordinates and Shi Lang back, while at the same time preparing his troops to attack Wangwu School (using resources and time efficiently for optimum result).

    Rather than commanding and coordinating the efforts against Yuan (national issue), ZWJ was busy rescuing XX from Shaolin (personal issue). At Yangzhou, WXB released Su Quan (personal issue) in exchange with Sangye and Galdan (national issue).

    Yeah, ZWJ was a really good boss indeed.
    You plant a garden and the flowers do not bloom, you poke a stick in the mud and it grows into a tree

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ace High View Post
    Which is a logical and sound decision. WXB’s death over a lackey (or even lackeys) will affect both KX and T:-) DH enormously. KX will lose a capable and trusted helper, and Green Wood Hall will be left leaderless.

    WXB has managed to uncover and eventually disrupt WSG’s alliance with Russia, Mongolia and Tibet was a great contribution and played a major factor in Qing’s overall battle plan. If WXB chose to save a lackey at the cost of his own life, KX will have to fight a war from all fronts, instead of from the south and south-west only.

    The death of Guan An Ji is a good example. Guan’s death has no visible effect, as his function (if any) can be taken over by any members. However, the same isn’t true for WXB. There was no capable and competent leader that able to replace WXB as the leader Green Wood Hall. This is evident from the fact the Green Wood Hall was still leaderless even though WXB has returned from his northern expedition. He was absent from the Capital for at least ten years but there were no replacement leader during the period. Furthermore, WXB’s power and influence in the Qing court has saved a lot of rebellion members from certain death.



    For a friend, ZWJ will sacrifice the world. For the live of one of his friend, he did not hesitate to sacrifice hundreds or thousands of others. While WXB will (hesitantly) sacrifice the live of one in order to save the many.

    ZWJ brought along his Ming Cult’s entire top brass to pick up XX, while achieving nothing substantial for the rebellion against the Yuan (wasting valuable time and resources for nothing). On other hand, WXB sent messengers to summon his Green Wood Hall’s subordinates and Shi Lang back, while at the same time preparing his troops to attack Wangwu School (using resources and time efficiently for optimum result).

    Rather than commanding and coordinating the efforts against Yuan (national issue), ZWJ was busy rescuing XX from Shaolin (personal issue). At Yangzhou, WXB released Su Quan (personal issue) in exchange with Sangye and Galdan (national issue).

    Yeah, ZWJ was a really good boss indeed.
    First. How was retrieving XX endangering ZWJ's subordinates? Before setting of ZWL arranged for people to remain who were capable of restoring the cult while he asked for volunteers to follow him.

    Thus he delegated to people who were better suited rather than try to micro manage.

    Second all very noble saying WXB was willing to sacrifice other people for a greater good but would you want to be that sacrifice?

    Again a refer back to the original thread where the measuring stick is how a boss treats his subordinates. Can you honestly say WXB treats his subordinates better than ZWJ.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 426mak View Post
    First. How was retrieving XX endangering ZWJ's subordinates? Before setting of ZWL arranged for people to remain who were capable of restoring the cult while he asked for volunteers to follow him.

    Thus he delegated to people who were better suited rather than try to micro manage.
    Moreover, rescuing Tse Tsun wasn't *only* personal business; Golden-Haired Lion King was one of the Four Guardian Lords of the Ming Cult. The cult had already lost Purple-Robed Dragon King, so recovering Golden-Haired Lion King would help restore its ranks (and in terms of brotherly ties, the rest of the Ming Cult elite were as eager as Cheung Mo Gei to bring Tse Tsun home).

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    Quote Originally Posted by 426mak View Post
    First. How was retrieving XX endangering ZWJ's subordinates? Before setting of ZWL arranged for people to remain who were capable of restoring the cult while he asked for volunteers to follow him.

    Thus he delegated to people who were better suited rather than try to micro manage.
    The Yuan was already on the move, attacking left and right, openly and secretly. Diverting his fighting forces for no tactical gain is endangering his subordinates, by making them more vulnerable to attacks, especially when the objective can be achieved by using smaller team and without much fanfare.

    Organising a fighting force isn’t a small task, that is precise why there are multiple ranks with different responsibilities, from generals to privates. Compare KX’s approach and ZWJ’s approach to war. KX wasn’t micro-managing, he acted as the coordinator and final decision maker of major and critical issues to ensure the war efforts flow smoothly (a Commander-in-Chief). By totally delegating all of his responsibilities to others, no wonder ZWJ was losing control of the Ming army. He was such a great boss that he wasn’t even needed at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by 426mak View Post
    Second all very noble saying WXB was willing to sacrifice other people for a greater good but would you want to be that sacrifice?
    Nobody wants to be sacrificed. Which is why the decision must be made by the leader, not by the lackeys. Its the duty of the leader to balance and make appropriate decisions. Rearguard actions are prime examples of this. During the Battle of Étreux, the sacrifice of a battalion enabled a corps to retreat safely.

    Quote Originally Posted by 426mak View Post
    Again a refer back to the original thread where the measuring stick is how a boss treats his subordinates. Can you honestly say WXB treats his subordinates better than ZWJ.
    Yes.
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