Fok Do - a "Mongolian prince" who didn't fit the stereotype?

[Ken Cheng]

If Jin Yong hadn't specifically identified Fok Do as a Mongolian prince in ROCH, it would have been difficult to envision the character as one. From LOCH, we had a strongly ingrained image/stereotype of Mongolian men as hardy, uber-masculine warriors/hunters on horseback...pure, testosterone-driven he-men, every one of them (including adopted "Mongolians" such as the young Gwok Jing). Then, we have Fok Do show up in ROCH, introducing himself as a Mongolian prince (later affirmed), but not even slightly matching the stereotype. In terms of image, Fok Do had much more in common with the likes of Au Yeung Hak and Yeung Hong than he did with men such as Temujin and Tolui. In terms of his mode of dress, mannerisms, and the general way he carried himself, Fok Do fit the profile of the slightly effete Han playboy rather than that of the Mongol warrior/hunter.

[Ian Liew]

I think that's because you're going by ROCH 84's Huo Du, which was played by Kent Tong wearing a very handsome Han outfit. Other adaptations, even ROCH 96, have him dressed suitably Mongolian.

[Ken Cheng]

I think that's because you're going by ROCH 84's Huo Du, which was played by Kent Tong wearing a very handsome Han outfit. Other adaptations, even ROCH 96, have him dressed suitably Mongolian.

There's also his (very un-Mongolian-like) fan weapon, and his pretenses of being a cultured (by Han Chinese standards), literate man.

[Son of Light]

Not all Mongolians are savage solders, there were many learned cultured men within their ranks.

[Ken Cheng]

Not all Mongolians are savage solders, there were many learned cultured men within their ranks.

Genghis being the first of them. Genghis once hosted an intra-religion conference that was attended by Yau Chui Gei, among others. This might have been the world's very first interfaith conference.

Still, Genghis was the exception rather than the norm during the early, formative years of the Mongol Empire (when conquest was still the main item on the agenda). After the Mongol Empire had settled in for a few decades, we began to see more cultured guys such as Kublai.

[tape]

Yeah, it probably had to do with the fact that by the time of ROCH, Mongolians actually had some time to sit down and enjoy their spoils of war. They were a small, small tribe in the beginning of LOCH after all, and literacy and culture was not very high on the list of important things.

Genghis Khan wasn't very cultured as far as I'm concerned. He was fantastic with people, and respected genuine people that had good human qualities, but even the conference you mention was just an attempt to gain the secret of immortality from Taoists. I'm not even sure if he could read and write.

[Doc Kwok]

Then, we have Fok Do show up in ROCH, introducing himself as a Mongolian prince (later affirmed), but not even slightly matching the stereotype. In terms of image, Fok Do had much more in common with the likes of Au Yeung Hak and Yeung Hong than he did with men such as Temujin and Tolui. In terms of his mode of dress, mannerisms, and the general way he carried himself, Fok Do fit the profile of the slightly effete Han playboy rather than that of the Mongol warrior/hunter.

Although he dressed the part, he didn't really act or look that way. When he first appeared, his visage was described as being 'arrogant and ruthless'. He typically spoke in a cultured, somewhat pretentious manner, but was also for most part fairly direct (which was why he kept falling into Yang Guo's verbal traps). His fighting style was also vicious, using a lot of heavy palm-strikes and shouting to intimidate the opponent - not particularly swarve. He was also, as far as we know, not a womaniser - apart from the very beginning when he sought XLN's hand in marriage, he was never seen pursuing a woman (not even XLN herself - when they met at the Heroes' conference, he didn't even recognise her since that was the first time he saw her in person).

In short, Kent Tong in ROCH '83 is not a reliable gauge of what Huodu is like as portrayed by Jinyong.

[Ken Cheng]

Genghis Khan wasn't very cultured as far as I'm concerned. He was fantastic with people, and respected genuine people that had good human qualities, but even the conference you mention was just an attempt to gain the secret of immortality from Taoists. I'm not even sure if he could read and write.

The Mongols originally had no written language of their own, but I think Genghis ordered his people to create one using Hsi Hsia script. This was probably unsuccessful considering that there's no Hsi Hsia-script-based Mongol written language today (indeed, the Hsi Hsia written language is extinct and modern day archaeologists can't figure it out).

By the Yuan Dynasty, however, the Mongols were using Han script.

[Ken Cheng]

Although he dressed the part, he didn't really act or look that way. When he first appeared, his visage was described as being 'arrogant and ruthless'. He typically spoke in a cultured, somewhat pretentious manner, but was also for most part fairly direct (which was why he kept falling into Yang Guo's verbal traps). His fighting style was also vicious, using a lot of heavy palm-strikes and shouting to intimidate the opponent - not particularly swarve. He was also, as far as we know, not a womaniser - apart from the very beginning when he sought XLN's hand in marriage, he was never seen pursuing a woman (not even XLN herself - when they met at the Heroes' conference, he didn't even recognise her since that was the first time he saw her in person).

In short, Kent Tong in ROCH '83 is not a reliable gauge of what Huodu is like as portrayed by Jinyong.

So I figured, but he still didn't quite fit the stereotype established by Genghis and his progeny.

[Banh Mi]

Huo Du was probably not a very high ranking prince, so he wasn't groomed for command in war as Khublai and Mongke were. Being in a position of prestige but not tied to the Mongolian tuman is pretty unusual. As such it's kind of excusable. I'd say if he was enlisted in the tumans he wouldn't turn out that way.

[Ken Cheng]

Huo Du was probably not a very high ranking prince, so he wasn't groomed for command in war as Khublai and Mongke were. Being in a position of prestige but not tied to the Mongolian tuman is pretty unusual. As such it's kind of excusable. I'd say if he was enlisted in the tumans he wouldn't turn out that way.

I've read rumors that in the third edition of ROCH, Fok Do's lineage is revealed as being a direct descendant of Jamukha, Genghis Khan's anda brother whom Genghis had to regretfully defeat and execute as part of his campaign to unify the Mongolian tribes under the Temujin clan's banner. As the descendant of Jamukha, Fok Do would likely enjoy some measure of respect and privilege in the Mongol Empire considering the close ties between Temujin and Jamukha, but at the same time, Temujin's descendants and successors would not fully trust Fok Do and give him too much authority.

[jadebunny9]

I've read rumors that in the third edition of ROCH, Fok Do's lineage is revealed as being a direct descendant of Jamukha, Genghis Khan's anda brother whom Genghis had to regretfully defeat and execute as part of his campaign to unify the Mongolian tribes under the Temujin clan's banner. As the descendant of Jamukha, Fok Do would likely enjoy some measure of respect and privilege in the Mongol Empire considering the close ties between Temujin and Jamukha, but at the same time, Temujin's descendants and successors would not fully trust Fok Do and give him too much authority.

If Temujin could take out his good brother like that, I doubt his descendants would care too much about Jamukha's descendants.

[Banh Mi]

I dunno, the Mongolian army worked in a system of meritocracy. If he was capable, he would have been promoted. Jebeh was formerly an enemy of the Khan. Jochi was rumoured to be a rape bastard, but still came to lead a the tuman which he defected with to become the Golden Horde.
The only thing is, Huo Du could not have been enlisted at all, or else he wouldn't be able to roam around as he pleased. He'd be on campaign most of the time and living with his troops.

[Ken Cheng]

I dunno, the Mongolian army worked in a system of meritocracy. If he was capable, he would have been promoted. Jebeh was formerly an enemy of the Khan. Jochi was rumoured to be a rape bastard, but still came to lead a the tuman which he defected with to become the Golden Horde.
The only thing is, Huo Du could not have been enlisted at all, or else he wouldn't be able to roam around as he pleased. He'd be on campaign most of the time and living with his troops.

Yeah, and Fok Do didn't seem to be interested in being a Mongolian horseback military leader. He wanted to be a wulin stalwart.

[Ken Cheng]

If Temujin could take out his good brother like that, I doubt his descendants would care too much about Jamukha's descendants.

Temujin executed Jamukha with great reluctance and regret, and even offered Jamukha the chance to rejoin him as anda. It was Jamukha who refused Temujin's offer of reconciliation because he understood that if Temujin was to achieve his ambitions, he needed to be ruthless...even against his anda.

That said, I think Temujin retained enough affection for his anda that he ordered his descendants to treat Jamukha's descendants well unless they became traitors to the Mongol cause.

[Ian Liew]

Temujin executed Jamukha with great reluctance and regret, and even offered Jamukha the chance to rejoin him as anda. It was Jamukha who refused Temujin's offer of reconciliation because he understood that if Temujin was to achieve his ambitions, he needed to be ruthless...even against his anda.

That said, I think Temujin retained enough affection for his anda that he ordered his descendants to treat Jamukha's descendants well unless they became traitors to the Mongol cause.

Jamukha was also the one who wronged Temujin in the first place, and Temujin would have been totally within his rights to execute him in cold blood, but he accorded him a lot of respect even though they had formally renounced their anda relationship. Despite them officially declaring war against each other, some adaptations have two really poignant scenes between the two:-

When Jamukha returns his anda token to Temujin, he concealed a note within, warning Temujin not to take a certain route because there was an ambush waiting. That warning, plus Temujin's determination to believe the warning despite some of his advisors warning him of trickery, pretty much saved Temujin's life.

When Jamukha is captured by his own men, bound and dragged before Temujin, Temujin orders the men executed, because they dared to betray their master for wealth. I suspect if it was Song Kwan's men who brought Song Kwan to Temujin he wouldn't have reacted in such a way. To him, Jamukha was still the anda he loved and respected, and it pained him to see how far he had fallen, betrayed even by his own men.

If Jamukha had descendants, Temujin would most definitely have treated them like his own, and that respect and acceptance would have carried down to his own descendants.

[pannonian]

Jamukha was also the one who wronged Temujin in the first place, and Temujin would have been totally within his rights to execute him in cold blood, but he accorded him a lot of respect even though they had formally renounced their anda relationship. Despite them officially declaring war against each other, some adaptations have two really poignant scenes between the two:-

When Jamukha returns his anda token to Temujin, he concealed a note within, warning Temujin not to take a certain route because there was an ambush waiting. That warning, plus Temujin's determination to believe the warning despite some of his advisors warning him of trickery, pretty much saved Temujin's life.

When Jamukha is captured by his own men, bound and dragged before Temujin, Temujin orders the men executed, because they dared to betray their master for wealth. I suspect if it was Song Kwan's men who brought Song Kwan to Temujin he wouldn't have reacted in such a way. To him, Jamukha was still the anda he loved and respected, and it pained him to see how far he had fallen, betrayed even by his own men.

If Jamukha had descendants, Temujin would most definitely have treated them like his own, and that respect and acceptance would have carried down to his own descendants.

Historically, Temujin's family lost its status when his father was killed, with the rest of the tribe abandoning Hoelun (Temujin's mother) and her children to die on the steppes. Hoelun was hardy and resourceful, and managed to raise her children in the woods away from the normal Mongol habitats. It was then that Temujin, a lower class Mongol, met Jamuka, an upper class Mongol, who helped him climb the social ladder. The split came when Temujin had acquired significant status of his own, and was threatening Jamuka's status as the senior of the two. As with Pompey and Caesar, Jamuka wouldn't accept Temujin as an equal and asserted his status, while Temujin wouldn't accept any superior. Their sponsor Ong Khan also fuelled the conflict, backing one against the other and then switching sides when one got too poweful. Also like Temujin, Caesar wasn't too pleased when presented with the head of his erstwhile ally.

[sandy1]

If Jin Yong hadn't specifically identified Fok Do as a Mongolian prince in ROCH, it would have been difficult to envision the character as one. From LOCH, we had a strongly ingrained image/stereotype of Mongolian men as hardy, uber-masculine warriors/hunters on horseback...pure, testosterone-driven he-men, every one of them (including adopted "Mongolians" such as the young Gwok Jing). Then, we have Fok Do show up in ROCH, introducing himself as a Mongolian prince (later affirmed), but not even slightly matching the stereotype. In terms of image, Fok Do had much more in common with the likes of Au Yeung Hak and Yeung Hong than he did with men such as Temujin and Tolui. In terms of his mode of dress, mannerisms, and the general way he carried himself, Fok Do fit the profile of the slightly effete Han playboy rather than that of the Mongol warrior/hunter.

If Huo Du came from the younger generation of Mongol princes, he might have been sufficiently sinicized by the virtue of his education to pose as a Han gentleman. Sorkhokthani, the mother of Kublai and Mongke, insisted on such education for her sons.

From The Secret History of the Mongol Queens:

"Sorkhokhtani insisted on their strict adherence to Mongol law, but at the same time, she combined this with extensive education about the civilizations around them, particularly the Jurched, Uighurs, and Chinese. She made sure that in addition to knowing traditional steppe culture, her sons learned to speak, read, and write excellent Mongolian. She had them taught to speak colloquial Chinese, although apparently not to read or write the classical version so prized by scholars and bureaucrats."