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Thread: Mongols in LOCH and ROCH - seventeen years without attacking the Sung Kingdom

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default Mongols in LOCH and ROCH - seventeen years without attacking the Sung Kingdom

    After Genghis Khan died at the end of LOCH, the Mongols did not launch another assault against the Sung Kingdom until four years into the ROCH narrative (e.g. when Yeung Gor was about seventeen years old). What took them so long to get going on this again? Granted, the death of Genghis Khan was a setback, but not one that should have set them back on this goal for as long as seventeen years. Genghis' death certainly didn't flag their momentum much on their invasion of the Middle East and Eastern Europe, so why did it bring their invasion of southern China to a screeching halt for almost two decades?

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    Senior Member Son of Light's Avatar
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    Mongolian and Song had fought many battles after Genghis Khan died.
    The Song army was able to resist the Mongolian's invasions for a long time.
    Example, Mongke Khan was killed by Song forces during his last invasion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Son of Light View Post
    Mongolian and Song had fought many battles after Genghis Khan died.
    The Song army was able to resist the Mongolian's invasions for a long time.
    Example, Mongke Khan was killed by Song forces during his last invasion.
    Right, but in the L/ROCH story (which borrows from, but doesn't precisely duplicate history), the Mongols took a seventeen-year long break after Genghis' death during which they didn't take any serious action towards invading the Sung territory. Things were so calm on the Mongol front that Gwok Jing and Wong Yung were able to afford to take a sixteen-year break to give birth to and raise Gwok Fu on Peach Blossom Island before volunteering to once again head the defense of Seung Yeung Fortress. I can understand the Mongols' needing time to regroup after Genghis' death, but seventeen years seems longer than necessary.

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    Senior Member Son of Light's Avatar
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    JY's novels are fictional works, anything can happen. :P
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    I fail to see how "GJ and HR weren't defending XY" equates as proof that the Mongols made no incursions upon the Song. Somehow explain how that syllogism works, please.

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    Senior Member galvatron's Avatar
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    Is Mongke Khan killed by Yong Gor in the novel?
    Is Yong Gor killed Mongke stopped Mongol invasion of European and Muslim nation and split the Mongol Empires into 4 Khanates and the Mongol turned the attention on Sung?
    Yang Gor shall consider a hero for the European and Muslim in middle east i think .

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    Quote Originally Posted by galvatron View Post
    Is Mongke Khan killed by Yong Gor in the novel?
    Is Yong Gor killed Mongke stopped Mongol invasion of European and Muslim nation and split the Mongol Empires into 4 Khanates and the Mongol turned the attention on Sung?
    Yang Gor shall consider a hero for the European and Muslim in middle east i think .
    There's just the slight problem that he's not real.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChanceEncounter View Post
    I fail to see how "GJ and HR weren't defending XY" equates as proof that the Mongols made no incursions upon the Song. Somehow explain how that syllogism works, please.
    I never realized this point, but it's very valid. After all, Guo Jing did not come back from the Peach Blossom Island because he felt the need to defend against the Mongolians, he came back to send Yang Guo off to Mt. Zhongnan.

    Did he stay on the island for the whole time between LOCH-ROCH? If so, when did he become a world renowned hero that everyone admired? As of the end of LOCH, there was no indication that he gained much fame, and if the Greats are anything to go by, living in seclusion for over a decade will cause most of wulin to forget who you are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChanceEncounter View Post
    I fail to see how "GJ and HR weren't defending XY" equates as proof that the Mongols made no incursions upon the Song. Somehow explain how that syllogism works, please.
    From the end of LOCH to the end of their lives, the most important priority in Gwok Jing and Wong Yung's lives was defending southern China against invasion by the Mongol Empire. They began this undertaking at the end of LOCH, but with Genghis Khan's death, the Mongols' plans were delayed. That's the main reason that Gwok Jing and Wong Yung felt that it was safe for them to retreat to Peach Blossom Island for (what turned out to be) the better part of seventeen years. Had they been aware of any imminent Mongol threat, they would not have left the mainland for an extended period of time. Once it became known that the Mongols were mounting new attacks, they promptly returned to the mainland and helped organize wulin into a resistance force.

    Moreover, other than the Gwok Family, nobody else in wulin said or did much about the Mongols during the four year period when Yeung Gor was training with Little Dragon Girl in the Ancient Tomb. The Cheun Jen Sect's headquarters at Mt. Chung Nam (and the Tomb) was already within the control zone of the Mongol Empire (and during LOCH, had been in the Jurchen control zone), but even so, Yau Chui Gei and the other Cheun Jen Taoists did not seem to say or do much about the Mongols until the time of the Heroes' Conference at Luk Family Manor in Dai Sing Kwan, when the Cheun Jen Sect sent Gok Dai Tung, Sheun But Yee, Chiu Tze Ging, and Yan Tze Bing as their representatives.

    In other words, after Genghis' death in LOCH, it took seventeen years before wulin got serious about the Mongol problem again. Logically, this means that Mongol threat was in abeyance during that seventeen year period and the wulin heroes of China did not consider the Mongols an imminent priority until that point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    I never realized this point, but it's very valid. After all, Guo Jing did not come back from the Peach Blossom Island because he felt the need to defend against the Mongolians, he came back to send Yang Guo off to Mt. Zhongnan.
    That was only a brief visit back to the mainland. After dropping Yeung Gor off at the Chung Yeung Temple, Gwok Jing returned to Peach Blossom Island for another four years. He would not visit the mainland again until the Heroes' Conference at Dai Sing Kwan, which was convened *specifically* for the purpose of discussing Chinese wulin's resistance against the renewed Mongol invasion. From Dai Sing Kwan, Gwok Jing went directly to Seung Yeung, where he would spend the rest of his life (about another thirty years) defending it.

    Did he stay on the island for the whole time between LOCH-ROCH? If so, when did he become a world renowned hero that everyone admired? As of the end of LOCH, there was no indication that he gained much fame, and if the Greats are anything to go by, living in seclusion for over a decade will cause most of wulin to forget who you are.
    The documented visits by Gwok Jing to the mainland after LOCH are as follows:

    1. At the beginning of ROCH, when he and his family were searching for Hung 7 Gung and Wong Yerk See, and met Yeung Gor.

    2. A few months later, when Gwok Jing took Yeung Gor to Mt. Chung Nam.

    3. Four years after that, Gwok Jing went to the mainland for the Heroes Conference at Luk Family Manor; from there, he went to Seung Yeung.

    I think the fame he gained between LOCH and ROCH came from his military exploits alongside Genghis Khan and his participation in the Second Mt. Hua Sword Tournament. Word probably got around wulin that this young dude named Gwok Jing had fought East Heretic and North Beggar to a draw for 300 strokes each.

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    Quote Originally Posted by galvatron View Post
    Is Mongke Khan killed by Yong Gor in the novel?
    Yes.

    Is Yong Gor killed Mongke stopped Mongol invasion of European and Muslim nation and split the Mongol Empires into 4 Khanates and the Mongol turned the attention on Sung?
    The unified Mongol Empire began splitting not long after Genghis Khan died. His four sons each focused on a different part of the empire. Tolui, being the youngest son, took charge of the Mongolian homeland while his elder brother Ogodei took on the Chinese operation theater. After Ogodei and Tolui died, however, it was Tolui's descendants (Mongke and Kublai) who took charge of the Chinese campaign.

    Yang Gor shall consider a hero for the European and Muslim in middle east i think .
    Well, in addition to not being real, the time period is wrong. By the time Yeung Gor killed Mongke at the end of ROCH, the Mongols had already controlled Central Asia and the Middle East for decades.

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    Senior Member Ian Liew's Avatar
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    My guess is since the Song dynasty, to its credit, was the only real opposition the Mongols had which managed to provide any resistance of note to their war machinery, it would make sense to focus resources on the other lands which would be easier pickings, and just keep the border with the Song monitored closely. This strategy worked until the end, when the Mongols went round China to conquer Dali, and catch China in a pincer attack back and front. So perhaps during those 17 years everyone else was focused on conquering Europe and the Middle East? Even if they had different people commanding different expeditions they would still have to prioritise on resources.

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    After Genghis's death, there is internal strife within the Mongol Empire. If I remember correctly, Kublai was not even the appointed heir. It was his eldest brother. Can't remember his name (Mongke?). When his eldest brother was killed, another brother was fighting with Kublai for the throne. All such strife may have reduced the keenness to invade Song Dynasty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wkeej View Post
    After Genghis's death, there is internal strife within the Mongol Empire. If I remember correctly, Kublai was not even the appointed heir. It was his eldest brother. Can't remember his name (Mongke?). When his eldest brother was killed, another brother was fighting with Kublai for the throne. All such strife may have reduced the keenness to invade Song Dynasty.
    After Genghis, Ogedei put the main weight of his conquests in the direction of Europe, following erroneous reports from Jebe and Subedei that European cities were rich. There was a simlutaneous attack into Song China, but that stopped at the Xiangyang bottleneck. After Ogedei there was internal conflict, as first Guyuk and then Mongke eliminated their enemies. After Mongke had consolidated his throne, there was renewed momentum in the Chinese campaign as Khubilai outflanked the Xiangyang position via Dali. After Mongke, Khubilai and Arik Boke competed for the throne, and with Khubilai's victory he was free to make another push, this time overwhelming Song.

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    The non-wuxia discussion that spun out of this thread is now located here.

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