Why do some people say LCH love YLS more than he loves RYY?

[IcySnow]

After watching XAJH 2001, quite amazing, I went ahead and read the novel. Finishing it today, I spent some time searching around for what people have to say about the book. It came to my surprise some people think that in LHC's heart, he loves YLS more than RYY.

The arguments I've come accross mostly revolved around 4 events:

1. When LHC comes to Shaolin Temple to rescue RYY.
2. When he hears about YLS's marriage.
3. When LHC let YLS stab him during their battle.
4. Finally YLS's death.

The first two events, I kinda agree that at the time, LHC still got a strong feeling for YLS and his defeating Yue Buqun at Shaolin Temple was more like a pay-back because RYY risked her life to rescue him, rather than love. However, as time goes by, his love for RYY gradually grows, maybe even without him noticing it. In the third event, he still cares for YLS a lot, but it's because they spent 18 (or something like that?) years together like brother and sister; he wanted to make her feel happy and just couldn't hurt her. And right before YLS's death, when LHC and RYY are going after YLS and LPZ, LHC wishes he could stay with RYY forever, riding the wagon, and has completely forgotten about YLS.

Near the end of the book, whenever something bad happens to LHC and RYY, he always says to himself "damn we're in trouble. nah as long as I and RYY die together, I don't care". When he thinks RYY's dead, despite Yilin's there, he just wanted to have everything blown up because his life, now without RYY, is meaningless.

So can you guys who think LHC loves YLS more than RYY, tell me more about your reasons? The arguments I've come accross so far are not really satifying since they mostly focus on the early part of the story, when LHC's just met RYY and hence, they haven't got much time together.

[Han Solo]

The unsatisfactory thing is that LHC keep thinking about YLS in a semi-romantic way when he was clearly in a relationship with RYY.

It always feel so unfair to RYY

Han Solo

[tape]

It's pretty realistic though; who doesn't think of their former and first love every now and then (especially when it's relatively recent)? If YLS had disappeared from the novel, never to be seen again, then there would be no question that he loves RYY. It just so happens that she keeps bumping into him, and in situations where she is in a terrible state and he is the only one that can help her.

I think it's a healthy and mature thing for LHC to be able to be with RYY even if he has a small amount of lingering feelings for YLS. A lot of wuxia fans might be younger and view love and emotions as very black and white, so his small moments of affection toward her are interpreted as OMG he loves her the most.

I do agree with you though, Han, that it feels unfair to RYY at times, but only because wuxia heroes are supposed to be more ideal and less flawed. Relationships in real life consist of one party sacrificing more than the other in many cases, and RYY happens to be the loving girlfriend that puts her man in front of herself at all times.

[IcySnow]

A lot of wuxia fans might be younger and view love and emotions as very black and white, so his small moments of affection toward her are interpreted as OMG he loves her the most.

Maybe this.

After all, he was raised up at Mount Hua Sect and spent a good amount of time there, along with YLS. Hence it wouldn't surprise me if he thought about her now and then when the situation involves her (I don't remember reading any part in which he has some free time and keeps dreaming about her). He even went so far as to forget about her when he and RYY were on the wagon going after her and LPZ to protect them, and to feel happy to be together with RYY in the cave, even YLS had just died and her grave is nearby.

[Han Solo]

The other thing to consider is that there is a difference between crushes and love.

LHC and YLS- crush?
LHC and RYY- love?

[sandy1]

Maybe this.

After all, he was raised up at Mount Hua Sect and spent a good amount of time there, along with YLS. Hence it wouldn't surprise me if he thought about her now and then when the situation involves her (I don't remember reading any part in which he has some free time and keeps dreaming about her). He even went so far as to forget about her when he and RYY were on the wagon going after her and LPZ to protect them, and to feel happy to be together with RYY in the cave, even YLS had just died and her grave is nearby.

I think Jin Yong said in his postcript to XAJH that the wagon episode is the turning point for LHC. At that moment, he was finally free of his blind love for YLS. After that, he was free to love RYY with all his heart.

I think JY wrote LHC's changing feelings toward both YLS and RYY in a psychologically believable way. His love for YLS was originally definitely much more deeper than a mere crush. Up until that moment in Shaolin when YBQ offerred to allow him to rejoin Huashan and marry YLS, he was still desperately in love with her. He even rationalized that although YLS now favored LPZ, if YBQ gave her to him, he would be able to make her love him. It's a disturbing thought, but perfectly understandable in his circumstances. After she married LPZ, he gradually accepted that she would never be his, but continued to care for her deeply. After the wagon episode, he felt intense pity for her, but no longer desired her romantically.

Until that moment, his feelings for RYY had always been somewhat conflicted. He had always found her attractive, and felt very grateful to her, but he probably didn't love her as much as YLS. However, he was not dissembling when he hinted to RYY that he wanted to marry her. For someone who was as intensely aware of others' sacrifices for him, her devotion to him was enough reason. Was it fair for RYY? Probably not, but it was not his intention to deceive her, as he fully intended to marry her and be faithful to her. It just couldn't be helped that he still felt something in his heart for YLS.

LHC's emotional progression is not ideal, but perfectly human. RYY's patience and sacrifices, however, are probably superhuman.

[tape]

It seems that in XAJH, one of the most unrealistic portrayals is RYY. She is almost too understanding, kind, and sincere to LHC, even without accounting for having grown up in such a vicious environment -- adding that in makes her almost unreal.

Yue Lingshan falling in love with Lin Pingzhi and out of love with Linghu Chong is very realistic of adolescent love, Linghu Chong pining for her and being unable to forget her is believable, and the roles of Lin Pingzhi as the tragic anti-hero or Yue Buqun as a two faced hypocrite are all excellently done, but RYY seems to have been just been pretty weak in terms of characterization. Her personality is wonderful, but she is too much of the archetypical good-girl-grown-up-in-an-evil-environment-but-manages-to-stay-good-after-she-meets-the-hero-who-she-gives-her-undying-love.

[IcySnow]

The other thing to consider is that there is a difference between crushes and love.

LHC and YLS- crush?
LHC and RYY- love?

I think the feeling LHC has for YLS is more than mere crush. However it fades away as the story advances.

...He had always found her attractive, and felt very grateful to her, but he probably didn't love her as much as YLS. However, he was not dissembling when he hinted to RYY that he wanted to marry her. For someone who was as intensely aware of others' sacrifices for him, her devotion to him was enough reason...

Up to the point before LHC and RYY go after YLS and LPZ, I agree with you that LHC has conflicted feeling for RYY, more like indebted than love.

But, I don't think it remains the same after that. He enjoys staying together with her in the cave, even it was only right after YLS's death. When they both were captured by Yilin's mother (I don't remember her name), the novel explicitly says that they love each other so much that they don't need words to communicate, just their eyes are enough. If he only married RYY because of her sacrifices for him, then I believe he would have hesitated a lot when he knew Yilin's feeling and all she had done for him. Lastly, at the end of the story, deep down inside he wanted to have everything blown up because he thought RYY was no longer alive.

It seems that in XAJH, one of the most unrealistic portrayals is RYY. She is almost too understanding, kind, and sincere to LHC, even without accounting for having grown up in such a vicious environment -- adding that in makes her almost unreal.
...

In my opinion, it's not completely unrealistic since there're still some good guys inside the cult who care for her, like Xiang Wentian. Not to mentions DFBB treats her pretty well.

She reminds me of Zhao Min in The Heaven Sword and Dragon Saber

[sandy1]

It seems that in XAJH, one of the most unrealistic portrayals is RYY. She is almost too understanding, kind, and sincere to LHC, even without accounting for having grown up in such a vicious environment -- adding that in makes her almost unreal.

Yue Lingshan falling in love with Lin Pingzhi and out of love with Linghu Chong is very realistic of adolescent love, Linghu Chong pining for her and being unable to forget her is believable, and the roles of Lin Pingzhi as the tragic anti-hero or Yue Buqun as a two faced hypocrite are all excellently done, but RYY seems to have been just been pretty weak in terms of characterization. Her personality is wonderful, but she is too much of the archetypical good-girl-grown-up-in-an-evil-environment-but-manages-to-stay-good-after-she-meets-the-hero-who-she-gives-her-undying-love.

I agree that RYY is a typical JY love-interest archetype, perhaps an overtly idealized one, as you said. She is the somewhat vicious, but loving girlfriend/wife --- not that different from Huang Rong, Yin Soso or Zhao Min. But to JY's credit, he offerred a plausible explanation for RYY's intense devotion for LHC: prior to their romantic relationship, as "po po", she was already his confidante. Originally, it was his deep love for YLS that made him appealing for her. Therefore, she was very patient with it, even when it was constantly present in their relationship. JY also shows some progression in her feelings toward LHC. At the beginning, true to her "vicious" upbringing, her love for him was possesive: she gave him a death sentence so that he would stay by her side. When they talked in the snowy cave after they escaped from Shaolin, she told him (after he vowed to always treat her well for life) that if he ever stray, she would personally kill him. Her love gradually became unconditional, but originally, it was not. RYY is potrayed as a shrewd, decisive character, and although she had always loved LHC deeply, I always get the sense that she perservered because she knew that she would eventually win over him. RYY's emotional progression is not shown in as much detail as LHC's, but it is there.

LPZ is an interesting character --- almost like a character from a Greek tragedy. I wonder if it's true that JY was inspired by elements of the myth of Orpheus and Eurydice in writing about LHC and RYY's initial meeting. He had to walk before her, forbidden to look behind, and when he inadvertently caught sight of her, "po po" disappeared, to be replaced by a young girl.

[IcySnow]

Nice explanation sandy

Maybe I should read the first part of the novel more thoroughly. I kind of skipped it since it seemed almost identical to the XAJH 2001 adaptation.

[sandy1]

Up to the point before LHC and RYY go after YLS and LPZ, I agree with you that LHC has conflicted feeling for RYY, more like indebted than love.

But, I don't think it remains the same after that. He enjoys staying together with her in the cave, even it was only right after YLS's death. When they both were captured by Yilin's mother (I don't remember her name), the novel explicitly says that they love each other so much that they don't need words to communicate, just their eyes are enough. If he only married RYY because of her sacrifices for him, then I believe he would have hesitated a lot when he knew Yilin's feeling and all she had done for him. Lastly, at the end of the story, deep down inside he wanted to have everything blown up because he thought RYY was no longer alive.

Precisely. All of those demonstrations of his wholehearted devotion to RYY, happened after the wagon episode, which JY intended to be the turning point in LHC's feelings toward YLS. At this point, any lingering romantic desire for YLS was finally extinguished, to be replaced by fraternal love and a great deal of pity. Perhaps JY sensed that the audience is getting impatient with LHC's continung mooning over YLS.

At least, he made LHC make a choice --- unlike with Zhang Wu Ji, who got progressively (and annoyingly) more and more indecisive with each revision.

As for Yilin, he felt protective toward her, but was not physically attracted to her. Besides, she was a nun, as unconventional as LHC was, he would never thought of marrying her.

[sandy1]

Nice explanation sandy

Maybe I should read the first part of the novel more thoroughly. I kind of skipped it since it seemed almost identical to the XAJH 2001 adaptation.

You're welcome, Icy.

XAJH 2001 significantly altered the details of RYY and LHC's initial relationship. In the series, LHC first met RYY as Shen Gu, and then as "po po". In the book, he never met her before he encountered her as "po po." I guess the alteration was made because they want to have the lead actress to appear sooner in the story.

[IcySnow]

...
At least, he made LHC make a choice --- unlike with Zhang Wu Ji, who got progressively (and annoyingly) indecisive with each revision.
...

I enjoyed the 2003 (or 2002, or 2004?) adaptation of The Heaven Sword and The Dragon Sabre, the one with Alec Su acting as Zhang Wu Ji. I read the book shortly after that and I was like "WTF"

I believe I read the third version. Such indecisiveness ruined my love for that novel.

You're welcome, Icy.

XAJH 2001 significantly altered the details of RYY and LHC's initial relationship. In the series, LHC first met RYY as Shen Gu, and then as "po po". In the book, he never met her before he encountered her as "po po." I guess the alteration was made because they want to have the lead actress to appear sooner in the story.

Yeah I read that on a certain review here. I really like the 2001 adaptation, sadly a good deal of the original story was wiped out.

[sandy1]

I enjoyed the 2003 (or 2002, or 2004?) adaptation of The Heaven Sword and The Dragon Sabre, the one with Alec Su acting as Zhang Wu Ji. I read the book shortly after that and I was like "WTF"

I believe I read the third version. Such indecisiveness ruined my love for that novel.

*whacks ZWJ on the head*

For all his flaws, I much prefer LHC over ZWJ in this matter.

Yeah I read that on a certain review here. I really like the 2001 adaptation, sadly a good deal of the original story was wiped out.

I like the 2001 XAJH a lot, too. I think that it's the best adaptation of XAJH to date. Unfortunately, the scenes from the original story that were wiped out, were exactly the ones that deal with the post wagon LHC's love for RYY. Maybe that's why people get the impression that LHC loves YLS more.

[IcySnow]

...
I like the 2001 XAJH a lot, too. I think that it's the best adaptation of XAJH to date. Unfortunately, the scenes from the original story that were wiped out, were exactly the ones that deal with the post wagon LHC's love for RYY. Maybe that's why people get the impression that LHC loves YLS more.

One of the reason I picked up the novel was because after watching the adaptation, I really questioned LHC's feeling towards RYY. Reading it cleared all my doubts but at the same time, I felt a little disappointed because while everything was very good, lots of good scenes were left out in the adaptation.

I came accross this topic while looking for people's opinions on the story: Who does Ling Hu Chong love most?
It really surprised me to see lots of people say in the end, LHC still loves YLS more than he loves RYY. The topic is quite old so I made this one to ask for some satisfactory reasons. And now that you mention it, maybe it's really because they only watched the adaptation, which cut off lots of scenes, that made them think that way.

[Ken Cheng]

I enjoyed the 2003 (or 2002, or 2004?) adaptation of The Heaven Sword and The Dragon Sabre, the one with Alec Su acting as Zhang Wu Ji. I read the book shortly after that and I was like "WTF"

I believe I read the third version. Such indecisiveness ruined my love for that novel.

I've found that opinions about Cheung Mo Gei (at least at this forum) tend to break along gender lines: women tend to condemn him for his alleged "indecisiveness" in his personal affairs whereas men tend to admire him for his accomplishments in wulin as Ming Cult Leader and the enlightened, compassionate manner in which he conducted himself as a wulin man (to a degree unparalleled by any other Jin Yong protagonist).

As a corollary, men tend to not let Cheung Mo Gei's difficulties in his personal affairs color their view of his wulin accomplishments, whereas women tend to focus so much on his personal affairs that it also colors their views of his wulin activities.

[sandy1]

I've found that opinions about Cheung Mo Gei (at least at this forum) tend to break along gender lines: women tend to condemn him for his alleged "indecisiveness" in his personal affairs whereas men tend to admire him for his accomplishments in wulin as Ming Cult Leader and the enlightened, compassionate manner in which he conducted himself as a wulin man (to a degree unparalleled by any other Jin Yong protagonist).

As a corollary, men tend to not let Cheung Mo Gei's difficulties in his personal affairs color their view of his wulin accomplishments, whereas women tend to focus so much on his personal affairs that it also colors their views of his wulin activities.

IMO, ZWJ is a better leader than LHC. But LHC is the better lover. Does it make sense?

[Ken Cheng]

IMO, ZWJ is a better leader than LHC. But LHC is the better lover. Does it make sense?

Sure it does. Ling Wu Chung was never an "organization man." He worked much better as a lone operative.

lone operatives: Ling Wu Chung, Yeung Gor

organization men: Gwok Jing, Cheung Mo Gei

[sandy1]

It is not just that he doesn't function well in an organization. He also doesn't get the big picture --- the political ramifications of the unification of the Wu Yue Jian Pai had to be explained to him by Fangzheng and Chongxu. Even after that, he was still blindly relying on YBQ's decision in the Songshan meeting --- with disastrous result. Even more, he let his personal feelings for YLS trumps any consideration for the public good of the wulin.

RYY, perhaps because she had grown up among the dangerous, fractious Sun Moon Holy Cult, is a far better leader. She is shrewd and decisive, and without her help, LHC's term as Hengshan Pai's leader would have been disastrous from day one when DFBB sent his minions to capture LHC, Fangzheng and Chongxu.

[IcySnow]

LHC won't get serious unless someone close to him, especially RYY - as shown in the last part of the novel, is life-threatened

However, I don't really think it's fair to compare LHC's leadership ability with ZWJ's since ZWJ has lots of badass, experienced people working under him. If there's something he's not sure, he just needs to ask for their opinions. The same does not apply to LHC. He has to make the decision all by himself, and to top it off he hasn't done any leading-work before, not counting the Shaolin Temple event, so in my opinion he did an okay job.

BTW we're getting off-topic