End-of-ROCH Gwok Jing vs. Lam Chiu Ying at her peak.

[Dirt]

Ouyang Feng was very familiar with XL18Z and Hong Qi was very familiar with Hama Gong. It's why each was trying to come up with new styles to fight one another (begs the question why Hong Qi never just used the full Dog Beating Stick). When they fought each other on Peach Blossom island, they were coming up with new moves on the fly to no avail. Ultimately, Ouyang Feng launched an internal power attack. Just because you know another's art doesn't automatically give you an advantage especially if they know your art as well. I think Lin Chaoying would be able to identify similarities between Guo's 9 Yin and Quanzhen arts just as Hong Qi was able to identify that Guo had Quanzhen internal.

[ChronoReverse]

I'm saying that Jade Maiden is a measuring stick to her skills. It's been said that she didn't create it for it's power, but for emotional reasons, meaning that it's not her top skill. That implies that her relative strength as in individual has to be equal or stronger than the Jade Maiden combination. Not that she would use it.

That's an assumption that can't hold water. We know for certain that there are many martial arts where the creator was nowhere near the completed level (QKDNY, Elephant and Dragon sutra, etc.)

[Ken Cheng]

...begs the question why Hong Qi never just used the full Dog Beating Stick

He was reserving it as his trump card to win the Second Mt. Hua Sword Tournament; he wasn't going to use it until that time.

I think Lin Chaoying would be able to identify similarities between Guo's 9 Yin and Quanzhen arts just as Hong Qi was able to identify that Guo had Quanzhen internal.

There are some similarities between Cheun Jen Sect martial arts and the 9 Yum Jen Ging, but the 9 Yum Jen Ging was superior. 9 Yum Jen Ging was like Cheun Jen Sect martial arts on steroids.

[Banh Mi]

That's an assumption that can't hold water. We know for certain that there are many martial arts where the creator was nowhere near the completed level (QKDNY, Elephant and Dragon sutra, etc.)

And the narator always mentions when that is the case. In this case, LCY wasn't trying to create an all powerful art, instead it was stated that she did it out of boredom. There's nothing to imply that she created an art that was above her level of attainment.

[ChronoReverse]

She couldn't train the final and important energy portion by herself nor could she use L/R technique. What makes you think she could've fully used the technique?

The technique inherently couldn't be used by a single person. XLN partially overcame it with L/R (although narration stated that it lost its flawless coverage) but still needed a second person to learn the technique with her.

[Doc Kwok]

She couldn't train the final and important energy portion by herself nor could she use L/R technique. What makes you think she could've fully used the technique?

The inner power aspect is separate from the sword techniques, and the novel explicitly said (via XLN) that she completed the training shortly before her death with the assistance of her maid/disciple.

The technique inherently couldn't be used by a single person. XLN partially overcame it with L/R (although narration stated that it lost its flawless coverage) but still needed a second person to learn the technique with her.

The technique couldn't be used by a single person without L/R, but note that even YG and XLN had no problems learning the technique itself - they just couldn't apply it since they initially thought it was used against Quanzhen swordplay rather than alongside it and so couldn't make much sense out of it.

When used by a single person, the technique gains massively in speed but is reduced in power (as in forcefulness), not flawlessness of technique.

[ChronoReverse]

The inner power aspect is separate from the sword techniques, and the novel explicitly said (via XLN) that she completed the training shortly before her death with the assistance of her maid/disciple.

And yet we know the internal aspect by itself wasn't anything spectacular since both YG and XLN completed it as well. It just allows for the combination play to work.

The technique couldn't be used by a single person without L/R, but note that even YG and XLN had no problems learning the technique itself - they just couldn't apply it since they initially thought it was used against Quanzhen swordplay rather than alongside it and so couldn't make much sense out of it.

When used by a single person, the technique gains massively in speed but is reduced in power (as in forcefulness), not flawlessness of technique.

That's not looking at the full picture.

This technique was literally stated in the narration that a couple using it must be in the throes of love. Not even a Husband and Wife could unleash its power much less a Master and Disciple.

And even when its full power was realized, it had no killing power but was simply impenetrable (unless you knew the 9 Yin technique that lets you see through it).

Furthermore, there's no chance LCY could ever learn L/R since it required a straightforward mind, something LCY decidedly didn't have.

So LCY
(a) Couldn't use the technique herself
(b) Can't realize its full power even if she could
(c) Can't fool GJ with the illusions since GJ already knows the technique that lets him see through it





When I think about it, the fact WCY couldn't overcome Jade Maiden with just QZ is hardly a surprise when Jade Maiden is an absolute merging of the two top martial arts school in the world (Ancient Tomb and Quan Zhen). WCY was in effect trying to overcome his own techniques using his own techniques. Of course he couldn't figure out a counter! Can a sword chop itself in half?

[Dirt]

Interesting line of thinking... And Jade Maiden can't be seen through is because that's how she felt, Wang doesn't see Lin.

[Doc Kwok]

And yet we know the internal aspect by itself wasn't anything spectacular since both YG and XLN completed it as well. It just allows for the combination play to work.

According to the 3rd edition, the end effect of the internal training is to greatly increase their speed while not doing anything for their hitting power. It was also intended as a roundabout means for the two training partners to get to know each other better as they guard each other from fire-deviation.

And even when its full power was realized, it had no killing power but was simply impenetrable (unless you knew the 9 Yin technique that lets you see through it).

When I think about it, the fact WCY couldn't overcome Jade Maiden with just QZ is hardly a surprise when Jade Maiden is an absolute merging of the two top martial arts school in the world (Ancient Tomb and Quan Zhen). WCY was in effect trying to overcome his own techniques using his own techniques. Of course he couldn't figure out a counter! Can a sword chop itself in half?

The combination swordplay, the Jade Maiden Pure-heart sword, is only a part of the Jade Maiden sword art (the final section in 2nd edition, 7th out of 10 in 3rd edition) - the vast majority of it was dedicated to defeating Quanzhen swordsmanship, and was based on her original martial arts.

I'm not convinced that Wang Chongyang found a way to defeat the combination swordplay. In the 2nd edition, LCY didn't state that the moves from the last section were intended to be used in combination with QZ sword at all, and given WCY's competitiveness, it's unlikely that he picked up on it. The 3rd edition is confusing on this issue - here, the training in the 7th section was explicitly based on teamwork with an (IMO silly and melodramatic) example move shown, yet later on, after the Heroes' conference, it pretty much reverts back to how it was in the 2nd edition with them sparring against each other with it (how did they manage that?).

As for the illusionary aspect, the novel explicitly states that the 9 yin hypnotic effect merely levels the playing ground, with neither side able to mesmerise the other. The underlying swordsmanship should be as flawless as ever.