End-of-ROCH Gwok Jing vs. Lam Chiu Ying at her peak.

[Ken Cheng]

Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung never did defeat Ancient Tomb Sect Founder Lam Chiu Ying during their lifetimes, and her martial arts techniques became the "black star" of his Cheun Jen Sect's techniques.

If Gwok Jing, at his skill level at the end of ROCH, had fought Lam Chiu Ying when she was at the peak of her prowess, could he have defeated her?

[PJ]

Since we don't know how powerful Lin Chaoying is, we can only extrapolate from bits and pieces of information.

FACT:
She is extremely talented. She came up with counters to Wang's arts on her own. Wang was unable to come up with counters to her counters - he spent 3 years trying, but failed. Only after he consulted 9 Yin was he able to. But Lin was able to do so on her own.

SPECULATION:
Since AT arts emphasize speed and lightness kung fu, we can assume she reached extreme speed and lightness at her peak. Coupled with her strong internal energy (presumably), she could have the lethal property of DFBB.

[Ken Cheng]

Since we don't know how powerful Lin Chaoying is, we can only extrapolate from bits and pieces of information.

FACT:
She is extremely talented. She came up with counters to Wang's arts on her own. Wang was unable to come up with counters to her counters - he spent 3 years trying, but failed. Only after he consulted 9 Yin was he able to. But Lin was able to do so on her own.

SPECULATION:
Since AT arts emphasize speed and lightness kung fu, we can assume she reached extreme speed and lightness at her peak. Coupled with her strong internal energy (presumably), she could have the lethal property of DFBB.

That tells us that she probably moved very fast, but it doesn't tell us if she'd win this particular fight.

[PJ]

That tells us that she probably moved very fast, but it doesn't tell us if she'd win this particular fight.

No one can "tell" you the outcome of a hypothetical fight with limited information about one side
All we can do is speculate with the limited information, likely yielding many possible scenarios, of which I've just presented one.

[Ian Liew]

She's also cunning and intelligent, not above utilising dirty tricks to win a fight (the way she used her finger to write on the stone). That alone should put the honest Guo Jing at a massive disadvantage.

[devilz91]

GJ should win this.

Wasn't the martial arts contest between WCY and LCY very, very long ago? Like many years before the first Mount Hua? WCY wouldn't have been at his peak. And I put GJ pretty close to peak WCY.

[PJ]

Wasn't the martial arts contest between WCY and LCY very, very long ago? Like many years before the first Mount Hua? WCY wouldn't have been at his peak. And I put GJ pretty close to peak WCY.

Yeah, but that was before she developed Ancient Tomb martial arts, which presumably propelled her to a higher level.

[Banh Mi]

We can sort of extrapolate her level as at or above Jade Maiden sword combination. As it was said that she created that not to increase her level but as an expression of her feelings, as the requirement of fighting side by side with someone is a ridiculous notion. So we can assume that she's normally as strong as Jade Maiden pair, or much better.

From, that we saw that Golden Wheel Monk couldn't even find a way to begin to fight it, let alone stand toe to toe as he did with GJ.

[ChronoReverse]

She developed it but she couldn't have practiced it solo. Her level was never as high as the combination play.

Furthermore, the skill is impenetrable, but has little attacking power (it literally becomes weak enough that even GWM was able to push through it whenever they tried to kill with it).

Finally, GJ's full mastery of 9 Yin means he has the precise counter to Jade Maiden.

[Ken Cheng]

From, that we saw that Golden Wheel Monk couldn't even find a way to begin to fight it, let alone stand toe to toe as he did with GJ.

Their raw power was roughly comparable, but I don't see the Golden Wheel Monk actually winning in a fair fight against Gwok Jing. For all his power, the Golden Wheel Monk left something to be desired (by Greats standards) in terms of fighting technique. Jin Yong wrote that a fight between Gwok Jing and the Golden Wheel Monk could not be resolved within an exchange of 1,000 strokes, and that might very well be, but I see Gwok Jing winning 10/10 against the monk (who, we must not forget, was very susceptible to choking).

[Dirt]

9 Ying gave Wang Chongyang the idea to counter Lin Chaoying's moves, however, he had already pondered for years over how to overcome Jade Maiden. Just as Ouyang Feng overcame Dog Beating Stick, however, it took him a long time and he wouldn't have been able to counter it had he been in battle with Hong Qi. Based on these things, I feel that it isn't a certainty that Guo Jing would be able to counter Jade Maiden in a fight with its creator. Besides, I question Guo Jing's martial theorist abilities; a great athelete, but a poor coach.

At that level, these fights always come down to internal strength competition anyways.

[Ken Cheng]

9 Ying gave Wang Chongyang the idea to counter Lin Chaoying's moves, however, he had already pondered for years over how to overcome Jade Maiden. Just as Ouyang Feng overcame Dog Beating Stick, however, it took him a long time and he wouldn't have been able to counter it had he been in battle with Hong Qi. Based on these things, I feel that it isn't a certainty that Guo Jing would be able to counter Jade Maiden in a fight with its creator. Besides, I question Guo Jing's martial theorist abilities; a great athelete, but a poor coach.

At that level, these fights always come down to internal strength competition anyways.

...which means Gwok Jing should win the fight if he fights Lam personally instead of trying to teach Wong Yung how to do it.

[ChronoReverse]

9 Ying gave Wang Chongyang the idea to counter Lin Chaoying's moves, however, he had already pondered for years over how to overcome Jade Maiden. Just as Ouyang Feng overcame Dog Beating Stick, however, it took him a long time and he wouldn't have been able to counter it had he been in battle with Hong Qi. Based on these things, I feel that it isn't a certainty that Guo Jing would be able to counter Jade Maiden in a fight with its creator. Besides, I question Guo Jing's martial theorist abilities; a great athelete, but a poor coach.

At that level, these fights always come down to internal strength competition anyways.

Not against Jade Maiden. It was specifically said in 3rd edition that its power came from the hypnotic patterns that couldn't be seen through (that's why the QZ7 said they couldn't even see its moves). 9 Yin specifically counters this because its repertoire includes methods to not be hypnotized.

Even without this, Jade Maiden already demonstrated that it had no power to kill any Great even with the more powerful two person version. Breaking it was one thing, winning the fight is another.

[pannonian]

She developed it but she couldn't have practiced it solo. Her level was never as high as the combination play.

Furthermore, the skill is impenetrable, but has little attacking power (it literally becomes weak enough that even GWM was able to push through it whenever they tried to kill with it).

Finally, GJ's full mastery of 9 Yin means he has the precise counter to Jade Maiden.

That's assuming that Lin Chaoying's highest art was the combination swordplay, which we know was created merely as a piece of fantasy. Yang Guo and Xiao Longnu's highest martial art was the combination swordplay, but that was because without it, they were individually weak. While Lin Chaoying created the art to be impenetrable even to stronger opponents, we don't know just how strong she individually was, or how lethal she could be.

[Ken Cheng]

That's assuming that Lin Chaoying's highest art was the combination swordplay, which we know was created merely as a piece of fantasy. Yang Guo and Xiao Longnu's highest martial art was the combination swordplay, but that was because without it, they were individually weak. While Lin Chaoying created the art to be impenetrable even to stronger opponents, we don't know just how strong she individually was, or how lethal she could be.

We know she wasn't more powerful individually than Wong Chung Yeung at the time because, despite being able to counter his Cheun Jen Sect martial arts, she was never able to individually defeat him.

[tape]

Their raw power was roughly comparable, but I don't see the Golden Wheel Monk actually winning in a fair fight against Gwok Jing. For all his power, the Golden Wheel Monk left something to be desired (by Greats standards) in terms of fighting technique. Jin Yong wrote that a fight between Gwok Jing and the Golden Wheel Monk could not be resolved within an exchange of 1,000 strokes, and that might very well be, but I see Gwok Jing winning 10/10 against the monk (who, we must not forget, was very susceptible to choking).

I remembering you lecturing me about no Great being able to beat another 100% of the time .

Fwiw, I think the difference between YG and Yideng/Huang Yaoshi is likely greater than that of GWM and GJ, though GJ is likely stronger.

[Ken Cheng]

I remembering you lecturing me about no Great being able to beat another 100% of the time .

Small sample (only ten matches). If it's out of 100, the Golden Wheel Monk *might* take a half dozen or so on pure luck (just the odds).

Fwiw, I think the difference between YG and Yideng/Huang Yaoshi is likely greater than that of GWM and GJ, though GJ is likely stronger.

Stronger, maybe not...better skilled, definitely.

[Banh Mi]

She developed it but she couldn't have practiced it solo. Her level was never as high as the combination play.

Furthermore, the skill is impenetrable, but has little attacking power (it literally becomes weak enough that even GWM was able to push through it whenever they tried to kill with it).

Finally, GJ's full mastery of 9 Yin means he has the precise counter to Jade Maiden.

I'm saying that Jade Maiden is a measuring stick to her skills. It's been said that she didn't create it for it's power, but for emotional reasons, meaning that it's not her top skill. That implies that her relative strength as in individual has to be equal or stronger than the Jade Maiden combination. Not that she would use it.

WCY created a set of techniques which countered Ancient Tomb techniques inspired by the 9 Yin. GJ can't reproduce that because he didn't sit down and study Ancient Tomb martial arts with the goal of defeating it, he just has 9 Yin. Further to that, Jade Maiden combination is the use of Ancient Tomb combined with QZ martial arts.

[PJ]

We know she wasn't more powerful individually than Wong Chung Yeung at the time because, despite being able to counter his Cheun Jen Sect martial arts, she was never able to individually defeat him.

You have to be more clear about the timing, b/c they went back and forth. Originally, WCY was likely a little better. Then, LCY surpassed WCY when she created AT MA. WCY admitted inferiority when he saw it. Later, with help of 9 Yin, WCY was able to surpass LCY again -> this is the final leveling.

If we want to be really technical (which isn't necessary, but I'll just point it out anyway), WCY and LCY never fought again after their several-thousand-stances duel. After that time, LCY created counters to WCY's MA, and vice versa, but they never fought again to prove actual effectiveness, so it was all just on paper (or wall). But since they were about equal to start with, I think it's safe enough to assume whoever comes up with counters to the other's MA can be considered better overall. In this case, it's WCY.

This might sound strange, but if GJ and LCY were transported to SPW context, LCY might win with her similarity to DFBB (high IE + speed). But within the Trilogy, speed doesn't help much (unless your opponent is CHOKER GWM), so GJ would likely win.

[Ken Cheng]

WCY created a set of techniques which countered Ancient Tomb techniques inspired by the 9 Yin. GJ can't reproduce that because he didn't sit down and study Ancient Tomb martial arts with the goal of defeating it, he just has 9 Yin. Further to that, Jade Maiden combination is the use of Ancient Tomb combined with QZ martial arts.

Didn't Wong Chung Yeung just straight up use the 9 Yum Jen Ging as his counter for the Ancient Tomb Sect techniques? I don't remember that he used 9 Yum as the foundation to create another technique.