Why do some people say LCH love YLS more than he loves RYY?

[sandy1]

LHC won't get serious unless someone close to him, especially RYY - as shown in the last part of the novel, is life-threatened

However, I don't really think it's fair to compare LHC's leadership ability with ZWJ's since ZWJ has lots of badass, experienced people working under him. If there's something he's not sure, he just needs to ask for their opinions. The same does not apply to LHC. He has to make the decision all by himself, and to top it off he hasn't done any leading-work before, not counting the Shaolin Temple event, so in my opinion he did an okay job.

BTW we're getting off-topic

Icy, it is getting off-topic. Sorry about that. I was responding to Ken's opinion that women tend to focus so much on ZWJ's personal affairs that it also colors their views of his wulin activities. I can't speak for all women readers, but personally, I'm perfectly capable of distinguishing between the different qualities that each protagonist has. For example, ZWJ was a lousy lover, but clearly a better political leader than LHC. The fact that I find ZWJ's love life exasperating, doesn't mean that I can't recognize his other better qualities, such as compassion, leadership ability, etc. Ditto for LHC --- the fact that he was constant in love, does not mean that I can't see that he was not a great leader. He had some leadership ability, which was evident in his leadership of the rabble that he led to Shaolin to free RYY, but he simply was not a political person. He was unable to grasp the big picture unless it was spelled out for him, and even then he still let his personal feelings trump any broader political consideration. This is just how JY wrote him. I love it that each of his major protagonists is different and quite complex on their own.

JY also repeatedly asserted that LHC is a "carefree" person, but is this really true? Anyway, that's another off topic that might deserve its own thread.

[sandy1]

Now, for something that might be considered on-topic.

Do you think that the way LHC loved YLS is different from the way he loved RYY?

[IcySnow]

Now, for something that might be considered on-topic.

Do you think that the way LHC loved YLS is different from the way he loved RYY?

I haven't got the time to read the first part of the novel so I can't give you my opinion yet. What do you think?

[ChronoReverse]

I'd cut RYY some slack in terms of her devotion. She's only like 16 and never fell in love before. Plus she's so incredibly shy that it's hilarious.

"Tell everyone if you see LHC, KILL HIM IMMEDIATELY!"

I also like how her temper flares up all the time.

"Grandma grandma don't you get SICK of calling that ALL THE TIME!"



Honestly, her half year spent at Shaolin completely changed her character as she entirely mellowed out after that point.

[sandy1]

I haven't got the time to read the first part of the novel so I can't give you my opinion yet. What do you think?

I think he does love them differently, because their personalities are very different, and also because of what they each represents in his life.

In the novel, LHC and YLS's relationship is described as of the "qing mei zhu ma"/ green plum bamboo horse (青梅竹马) kind --- they were childhood sweethearts (please correct me if I'm wrong, my Chinese language skill is not that good). She was much younger than him and his inferior in both intelligence and martial art. If they had gotten together, he'd try to wrap her up in cotton wool --- he took a sword through his shoulder just to make her smile! He also sort of put her on a pedestal, partly because she was his esteemed shifu's precious daughter. She represents the continuity of the family life that he craved as an orphan and this is why he clung so desperately to her, even after she married LPZ. But ultimately, his love for her is based on an idealization that never was and I don't see how he could remain true to himself if he had married her.

As for RYY, he was perfectly aware of the different aspects of her personality --- some of which he initially found to be rather scary (saw me with him --- blind yourself! If you ever stray --- I'll personally kill you!). She was also smart and shrewder than him in political matters. He was able to judge her objectively before he fell in love with her. So his love for her is based on the reality of who she is, in contrast to his love for YLS. RYY represents the more mature phase in his life, in which he no longer have any illusion about YBQ or the moral distinction between the orthodox and unorthodox jiang hu.

So he did loved them both, but I'd say that eventually his true love is RYY, because it was based on reality instead of an idealization that later turned out to be hollow.

[IcySnow]

...
In the novel, LHC and RYY's relationship is described as of the "qing mei zhu ma"/ green plum bamboo horse (青梅竹马)
...

You mean YLS?

I've always found that in these kinds of stories, the love that has withstood the test of time, overcome many obstacles and difficulties will be the love that last forever. Well, at least that's how it is in the ones I've read so far.

BTW, a little off-topic, did XAJH get any revision from Jin Yong?

[sandy1]

You mean YLS?


I've always found that in these kinds of stories, the love that has withstood the test of time, overcome many obstacles and difficulties will be the love that last forever. Well, at least that's how it is in the ones I've read so far.


BTW, a little off-topic, did XAJH get any revision from Jin Yong?

Oops. That should be YLS instead of RYY. Sorry about that.


I believe that JY revised XAJH several times, but the story remains largely intact, compared to the other titles that he revised. Perhaps the most significant addition is the paragraph or two that he added to the ending in the third edition. These extra material contains LHC's inner monologue that further clarifies his thinking about the true meaning of being "carefree" --- which does not mean free of all worldly attachments, but free of "improper ones." Therefore, his marriage to RYY is not seen as an attachment that restrained his carefree nature, but as a proper attachment that is inevitable in human life. The Spcnet translation does not have this extra material.


In the afterword to earlier editions JY suggested that although LHC had finally freed himself from all entanglements, he ultimately couldn't resist a young and beautiful wife. Perhaps that new part was added to address readers' reaction to this statement.


The other changes are minor and does not affect the overall story. In previous editions, LHC gave RYY a kiss on the forehead, and in the third edition it's on her lips. Things like that.


There's a page on baike.com (in Chinese) that itemized the changes, but I can't find it anymore.

[IcySnow]

Really?

I was looking at this HSDS page: http://wuxiapedia.com/Novels/Jin-Yon...-Slaying-Sabre and saw that they listed the changes in the later versions.
However, nothing about revision can be found for XAJH: http://wuxiapedia.com/Novels/Jin-Yon...Proud-Wanderer

[sandy1]

Really?

I was looking at this HSDS page: http://wuxiapedia.com/Novels/Jin-Yon...-Slaying-Sabre and saw that they listed the changes in the later versions.
However, nothing about revision can be found for XAJH: http://wuxiapedia.com/Novels/Jin-Yon...Proud-Wanderer

It's not on wuxiapedia or spcnet. It's from a Chinese site. I can't find the site anymore, but I have saved some of the content.

Here's the extra passage that JY added in the third edition (in Chinese).

【新修版】在最后新加一段话作为结尾：
　　令狐冲一生但求逍遥自在，笑傲江湖，自与盈盈结？，虽偿了平生之愿，喜乐无已，却不免受到 娇妻温
　　柔的管束，真要逍遥自在，无所拘束，却做不到了，突然之间，心中响起了《笑傲江湖之曲》的 曲调，
　　忽想：“我奏这曲子，要高便高，要低便低，只有自己一个人奏琴，才可自由自在，然如和盈盈 合奏，
　　便须依照谱子奏曲，不能任意放纵，她高我也高，她低我也低，，这才说得上和谐和拍。佛家讲 求涅磐，
　　首先得做到无欲无求，这才能无拘无束，但人生在世，要吃饭，要穿衣要顾到别人，岂能当真无 欲无求？
　　”涅磐是‘无为境界’，我们做人是‘有为境界’，在‘有为境界’中，只要没有不当的欲求， 就不会受
　　不当的束缚，那便是逍遥自在了。”

Someone here that has read the Chinese third edition confirmed that JY added this paragraph to the ending. In the previous versions, including the translations on spcnet, the book ends with this sentence.

"When she said till there, she gripped Linghu Chong's wrist and continued, "Never thought that I, Ren Yingying, would also finally be locked up with a big monkey, and never part ever again." She smiled tenderly, her smile soft and loving."

[IcySnow]

Is there a translatation of that paragraph somewhere sandy?

[sandy1]

Is there a translatation of that paragraph somewhere sandy?

There is, unfortunately it's in a non-English language.

Can anyone who is proficient in Chinese translate it? My Chinese is very basic and I can only get the gist of it with extensive dictionary use. Basically it says something like this (feel free to correct me!).

All his life Linghu Chong had strived for a carefree existence, but since marrying Yingying, although he had fulfilled a lifelong hope, and was incessantly happy, it couldn't be helped that he was also subjected to a beloved's wife gentle restraint, so that his carefree existence was somewhat curtailed. And then he suddenly thought of the song 'xiao ao jiang hu', "when I played this song by myself, when I wanted to go high, I could go high, when I wanted to go low, I could go low, truly carefree and unrestrained. But when I play in an ensemble with Yingying, I must play according to the score, I can't be wilfully having my own way. If she plays high, I must also play high, and if she plays low, I must do so too. This is what is called harmony in music. Buddhists always pay particular attention to not having any desires and not striving, being free from entanglements, but in real life, we must eat, clothe ourselves and take others into consideration. How can we truly be without any desires and not striving? When we have reached the state of 'you wei' (note: Daoist concept?), as long as we do not have any improper desires, we are unlikely to be subjected to improper ties. Then one is truly carefree."

[Han Solo]

I liked the 2nd edition ending. Less moralizing.

Han Solo

[sandy1]

I liked the 2nd edition ending. Less moralizing.

Han Solo

I thought that the original ending was too abrupt and rather unsatisfiyingly ambiguous, so the additional paragraph is an improvement. Can't say the same for some of the "philosophical/religious" discussions that JY had added to the other novels, though --- especially the one in Book and Sword --- that one is definitely not an improvement on the original.

[IcySnow]

I agree that the added paragraph does seem like an answer to readers' reactions to the original ending which made people think LHC was tied to a lifelong entanglement. It is an improvement for the novel in my opinion, having the main character wrap up his signature characteristic, as well as what "carefree" is really about. And I'm glad that the 3rd version's ending didn't mess up LHC like it did to Zhang Wuji

BTW, I looked through the translated version by HHuang and pokit here at spcnet. Was it based on the second edition of the novel?

[Ren Wo Xing]

It's not on wuxiapedia or spcnet. It's from a Chinese site. I can't find the site anymore, but I have saved some of the content.

Here's the extra passage that JY added in the third edition (in Chinese).

【新修版】在最后新加一段话作为结尾：
　　令狐冲一生但求逍遥自在，笑傲江湖，自与盈盈结？，虽偿了平生之愿，喜乐无已，却不免受到 娇妻温
　　柔的管束，真要逍遥自在，无所拘束，却做不到了，突然之间，心中响起了《笑傲江湖之曲》的 曲调，
　　忽想：“我奏这曲子，要高便高，要低便低，只有自己一个人奏琴，才可自由自在，然如和盈盈 合奏，
　　便须依照谱子奏曲，不能任意放纵，她高我也高，她低我也低，，这才说得上和谐和拍。佛家讲 求涅磐，
　　首先得做到无欲无求，这才能无拘无束，但人生在世，要吃饭，要穿衣要顾到别人，岂能当真无 欲无求？
　　”涅磐是‘无为境界’，我们做人是‘有为境界’，在‘有为境界’中，只要没有不当的欲求， 就不会受
　　不当的束缚，那便是逍遥自在了。”

Someone here that has read the Chinese third edition confirmed that JY added this paragraph to the ending. In the previous versions, including the translations on spcnet, the book ends with this sentence.

"When she said till there, she gripped Linghu Chong's wrist and continued, "Never thought that I, Ren Yingying, would also finally be locked up with a big monkey, and never part ever again." She smiled tenderly, her smile soft and loving."

Let me translate:

All his life, Linghu Chong had desired only to be carefree, to laugh gaily in the face of the martial world. After having married Yingying, although he achieved the hope of a lifetime and was filled with boundless joy, he couldn’t avoid his tender wife’s gentle restraints. He could no longer be truly free and totally unrestrained. But suddenly, he thought of the melody of the song, “Laughing Proudly at the World”. He suddenly realized, “When I played this melody, I could go high when I wished, and go low when I wished. Only when I played the zither by myself could I play it as I pleased. By comparison, when I play with Yingying, then I must play in accordance with the melody as it was written down in the score, rather than modifying it freely. When she goes high, I go high; when she goes low, I go low. That alone can be described as harmoniously matching. Buddhism stresses that to achieve nirvana, the first step is to become free of all wishes and desires, as only then can one be freed from all attachments and bonds. But in the human world, we must eat, wear clothes, and take into consideration the feelings of others. How can we truly be free of all wishes and desires? Nirvana is the state of emptiness and stillness, but as human beings, we still live in a world of action. In a world of action, as long as one doesn’t have any inappropriate desires, one won’t be subject to any inappropriate bonds. That is the meaning of being carefree.”

[sandy1]

I agree that the added paragraph does seem like an answer to readers' reactions to the original ending which made people think LHC was tied to a lifelong entanglement. It is an improvement for the novel in my opinion, having the main character wrap up his signature characteristic, as well as what "carefree" is really about. And I'm glad that the 3rd version's ending didn't mess up LHC like it did to Zhang Wuji

BTW, I looked through the translated version by HHuang and pokit here at spcnet. Was it based on the second edition of the novel?

I think so, because the extra paragraph is only extant in the third edition.

Had the new ending turn LHC into another ZWJ, I'd probably fling the third edition into the wall.

[sandy1]

Thanks for translating the passage, RWX.

I didn't quite understand the Buddhist terms.

[IcySnow]

I think so, because the extra paragraph is only extant in the third edition.
...

pokit also said so in one of his threads. However, his version and the one translated to my mother tongue, which I really don't like due to poorly-chosen words making some of the plots ambiguous, have some differences. I'm not sure it was based on which version, but I'm sure it's not the 3rd since that extra paragraph's also not there.

For example:
- When LHC and RYY go to Hua Shan's cave where Feng Qingyang taught LHC his Dugu 9 Swords (I forgot the name of that mountain) to search for Heng-Shan's disciples, before going inside after hearing some noise, LHC told RYY to wait outside and RYY nodded. In pokit's version, he just silently went inside the cave.
- Still in that cave, after LHC and RYY reunite, in the one translated to my mother tongue, RYY said something like "You can't even recognize my voice yet you say you always think of me?" before LHC took her hand to hit his cheek. Here's what happens in pokit's version:

"I heard the qin's sound before and wasn't worried anymore. But then I felt that I've stabbed a girl and the qin's sound became broken, not making up a tune, so I thought I've wounded you. Later on, there was no sound at all and I didn't know what had happened."

Yingying smiled. "I've jumped up there early on. I was afraid someone might find out so I couldn't call out to you. So I had to toss coins down to strike that yaoqin to let you know."

Linghu Chong sighed and said, "That's how it is. I never knew. I deserve to be hit, deserve to be hit!" He took her hand and lightly hit his own cheeks. "You're marrying such a stupid man," Linghu Chong chuckled. "This can be considered to be Young Lady Ren's bad luck. I felt it was really odd. If you were the one playing the yaoqin, why weren't you playing the 'Song of Peace and Serenity' or maybe the 'Smiling Proud Wanderer'?"

- Right before the above two, when LHC and RYY visited YLS's old room, after looking at the toys and having some tears in his eye, LHC looked at RYY and saw her looking at the poem(?) on the wall and he himself took a look. In pokit's version, RYY just silently went outside and wait for LHC.

[sandy1]

pokit also said so in one of his threads. However, his version and the one translated to my mother tongue, which I really don't like due to poorly-chosen words making some of the plots ambiguous, have some differences. I'm not sure it was based on which version, but I'm sure it's not the 3rd since that extra paragraph's also not there.

For example:
- When LHC and RYY go to Hua Shan's cave where Feng Qingyang taught LHC his Dugu 9 Swords (I forgot the name of that mountain) to search for Heng-Shan's disciples, before going inside after hearing some noise, LHC told RYY to wait outside and RYY nodded. In pokit's version, he just silently went inside the cave.
- Still in that cave, after LHC and RYY reunite, in the one translated to my mother tongue, RYY said something like "You can't even recognize my voice yet you say you always think of me?" before LHC took her hand to hit his cheek. Here's what happens in pokit's version:

- Right before the above two, when LHC and RYY visited YLS's old room, after looking at the toys and having some tears in his eye, LHC looked at RYY and saw her looking at the poem(?) on the wall and he himself took a look. In pokit's version, RYY just silently went outside and wait for LHC.

I have also read a translation of XAJH in my native language which has those discrepancies that you mentioned, except for the last one. That translation was published in the 1960s, so I suppose it was based on the first edition or even on the original Ming Pao serialization. The Spc net translation is from the second edition, which JY revised in the 70s --- that's why some parts are different.

[IcySnow]

I have also read a translation of XAJH in my native language which has those discrepancies that you mentioned, except for the last one. That translation was published in the 1960s, so I suppose it was based on the first edition or even on the original Ming Pao serialization. The Spc net translation is from the second edition, which JY revised in the 70s --- that's why some parts are different.

IMO, LHC telling RYY to wait before going inside the cave alone seems more logical than the 2nd edition, which pokit translated, so I doubt that the one we read was based on the first edition.

And I agree that all these different editions are confusing. I hope that all these changed will be summarized some time.