How many years/decades on average for a near complete turnover of wulin?

[Ken Cheng]

Around sixty to seventy years passed between the time of the First Mt. Hua Sword Tournament and the end of ROCH. Let's call this the Era of the Greats, which encompasses up to at least a decade before the beginning of LOCH to the end of ROCH.

During the Era of the Greats, there was only minimal turnover at the top of wulin: other than swapping Gwok Jing, Yeung Gor, and Chow Bak Tung in for the deceased Hung 7 Gung, Au Yeung Fung, and Wong Chung Yeung (respectively), the roster of Greats from ten-plus years before the beginning of LOCH to the end of ROCH was more or less stable.

In the lower rungs of wulin, however, there was considerable turnover. Of the non-Greats fighters active in wulin at the beginning of LOCH, only Ohr Jen Ngok and 1 Deng's four disciples remained active. At least as far as characters we know, there was a near complete turnover of wulin (excluding the senior Greats) between the start of LOCH and the end of ROCH.

On average, how long do you estimate it takes for a near complete turnover of wulin...wherein say 90% of the prominent figures are replaced by newer, younger fighters?

[tape]

Probably 90% of wulin retire or get replaced fairly quickly. If Xiao Feng and Greats can be forgotten in the span of less than 20 years, it indicates most people weren't around 20 years ago.

I imagine a majority of wulin is similar to high school/college athletes. They've heavily involved in their sport for a decade or so, and after that, they are no longer participants of it except hearing some news every now and then. Not the best analogy, but it helps to explain why some seemingly "scrubby" people in wulin get respect and fame -- it's a hard life to live for decades and not many people choose to do it for long.

[Ken Cheng]

Probably 90% of wulin retire or get replaced fairly quickly. If Xiao Feng and Greats can be forgotten in the span of less than 20 years, it indicates most people weren't around 20 years ago.

I don't know about the DGSD crew, but the Greats had fame that endured for a century after their passing. HSDS proper doesn't even begin until about eighty years after the end of ROCH, and even at the end of HSDS, people were still talking about Gwok Jing, Yeung Gor, and even the elder Greats.

But it seems like the majority of active figures in wulin remain the most active figures for a period of between fifty to seventy years. The DGSD era, for example, began with the youths of the Siu Yiu Sect Elders, Siu Yeun San and Mo Yung Bok, the monks at Heavenly Dragon Temple, etc. These people had been the movers and shakers in wulin for between fifty to seventy years before the end of DGSD.

That's at the very top, however. It's difficult to know how much turnover there was in the middle and lower rungs, where people are more likely to get killed off.

[tape]

I don't know about the DGSD crew, but the Greats had fame that endured for a century after their passing. HSDS proper doesn't even begin until about eighty years after the end of ROCH, and even at the end of HSDS, people were still talking about Gwok Jing, Yeung Gor, and even the elder Greats.

But it seems like the majority of active figures in wulin remain the most active figures for a period of between fifty to seventy years. The DGSD era, for example, began with the youths of the Siu Yiu Sect Elders, Siu Yeun San and Mo Yung Bok, the monks at Heavenly Dragon Temple, etc. These people had been the movers and shakers in wulin for between fifty to seventy years before the end of DGSD.

That's at the very top, however. It's difficult to know how much turnover there was in the middle and lower rungs, where people are more likely to get killed off.

I brought this up in another thread, but in LOCH very high ranking beggars did not really know who Huang Yaoshi was, and I believe someone like PJ mentioned that Xiao Feng reflected that people wouldn't remember him in 20 years anyway so things weren't as big a deal as it seemed at the time.

The very knowledgeable and sage-like characters will remember the great figures of the past, but the fact that the majority of wulin have almost forgotten Huang Yaoshi and (if Xiao Feng is correct) Xiao Feng probably means they've retired or died off within that span of 20 years.

Active figures and playmakers of wulin staying around for longer makes a lot of sense since they actually matter -- they have some modicum of fame and influence on a good amount of people, and they likely enjoy the power and prestige along with not knowing any other life. The people that make up the lower rungs of wulin are likely those that risk getting killed, or realize that there is no glory in it for them, and step out of that world before too long.

[Ken Cheng]

I brought this up in another thread, but in LOCH very high ranking beggars did not really know who Huang Yaoshi was, and I believe someone like PJ mentioned that Xiao Feng reflected that people wouldn't remember him in 20 years anyway so things weren't as big a deal as it seemed at the time.

The very knowledgeable and sage-like characters will remember the great figures of the past, but the fact that the majority of wulin have almost forgotten Huang Yaoshi and (if Xiao Feng is correct) Xiao Feng probably means they've retired or died off within that span of 20 years.

Active figures and playmakers of wulin staying around for longer makes a lot of sense since they actually matter -- they have some modicum of fame and influence on a good amount of people, and they likely enjoy the power and prestige along with not knowing any other life. The people that make up the lower rungs of wulin are likely those that risk getting killed, or realize that there is no glory in it for them, and step out of that world before too long.

To look at the self-contained worlds of each part of the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY separately, it seems like a single generation of wulin remains active and predominant for a span of approximately twenty years. In LOCH, for example, the prominent figures in wulin changed very little during the twenty years between Gwok Jing's birth and the end of the story. The Gong Nam 7 Freaks, Au Yeung Hak, and Mui Chiu Fung were dead, but otherwise, most of the active wulin was the same.

During ROCH's twenty-three year (or so) span, wulin also seemed to be comprised of mostly the same people. Same old Greats and their disciples/descendants. Lee Mok Sau, Fok Do, and few other fringe characters bought it in the interim, but overall, wulin remained the same.

The quarter century of HSDS was also remarkably consistent right through to the end. Major sect leaders such as Mit Jeut See Tai, Ho Tai Chung, and Shih For Lung were around for most of the story, and Cheung 3 Fung and the Shaolin elders were still around too, as was most of the Ming Cult of that time.

I think it takes a minimum of fifty years for a generation of wulin to be mostly phased out.

[tape]

I thought you were speaking of the general wulin populace, and not just the key figures, but if you are just speaking of key figures, then I agree that 20 years is too short and it's likely closer to 50.

The thing is, prominent figures are as relevant as they want to be, and usually they like being in the spotlight so there isn't as high of a turnover rate.

Technically speaking though, people like Huang Yaoshi and Yideng should not be considered part of wulin anymore, even since their LOCH days as they rarely leave their secluded abodes. Ouyang Feng did not visit the Central Plains for over a decade either. Guo Jing left for 13(?) years.

But really, these people compose of the 0.01%. A large portion of the general wulin populace only have wulin lifespans of a few years likely.

In more wulin centric stories like DGSD, XAJH, HSDS, it shows that wulin is nowhere near as stable as it seems. Xiao Feng/Murong Fu both reached the peak of prominence and faded into memory in a short span of 20 years. The 4 Evils disbanded, Shaolin was overturned, and a whole bunch of people died all within that short time period. A lot of top fighters that had part in assassinating Xiao Yuanshan wound up as recluses.

In XAJH, the 5 Swords Alliances lost a ton of their fighters pre-novel, and a ton more after the novel. Lots of headmasters and disciples died. The Sunmoon Sect was completely changed. The major sects did not have much change as we know of.

Very hard to generalize what happens in wulin at the top -- there are times of peace and times of war.