Minor actions/events/details you feel are unrealistic/unbelievable/irking

[tape]

Just a small thing, but it always bothered me how Ding Jian (and some other guy Shi something) dropped their swords completely and became servants at the Plum Manor for the 4 Lords because they saved their lives. Why the heck would someone to that? I'd of course be extremely grateful and treat you as my benefactor, but to come to the decision to be an obedient servant for the rest of your life? It is especially weird since they were originally shady, dubious fellows to begin with.

Also a bit weird that the 4 Lords decided to join the Sun-Moon Sect of all places because they had an urge to do heroics and uphold chivalry. Did that sect ever have a good/non heretical reputation, like the Ming sect originally did?

What other small details irk you guys?

[Ken Cheng]

I have a huge barrel of these, but can't recall them all at once.

One that sticks out from LOCH: Gwok Jing standing on the sidelines and laughing as Wong Yung tortured some poor fat lady. It really isn't in Gwok Jing's character to just stand there and laugh while an innocent person is made to suffer. That isn't the noble, heroic Gwok Jing of wuxia legend.

[tape]

He was still young then, and I think in that scene it was a mean, fat lady being carried by slaves whom was cursing everyone out or something like that. Not exactly justifying Huang Rong cutting her up, but I could see a young 20 year old couple feeling the need to dole out some justice in that circumstance. There were probably no fat, gluttonous, or cruel (to their own) people in Mongolia, so maybe he was feeling especially irate before he matured.

[Doc Kwok]

He was still young then, and I think in that scene it was a mean, fat lady being carried by slaves whom was cursing everyone out or something like that. Not exactly justifying Huang Rong cutting her up, but I could see a young 20 year old couple feeling the need to dole out some justice in that circumstance. There were probably no fat, gluttonous, or cruel (to their own) people in Mongolia, so maybe he was feeling especially irate before he matured.

Actually, it was a fat man riding on a thin donkey, and his fat wife on a sedan chair carried by two stick-thin servants, with the donkey and servants visibly straining under their weight. In addition to cutting an ear off the woman, HR also forced the fat couple to carry the servants and a servant-girl in the sedan chair...

[Ken Cheng]

Actually, it was a fat man riding on a thin donkey, and his fat wife on a sedan chair carried by two stick-thin servants, with the donkey and servants visibly straining under their weight. In addition to cutting an ear off the woman, HR also forced the fat couple to carry the servants and a servant-girl in the sedan chair...

I can kind of understand why the young Gwok Jing laughed (even if it doesn't seem in character for him); I'm laughing over here visualizing this scene.

[Ken Cheng]

Here's another Gwok Jing-related one...this one from ROCH (I think).

Didn't Gwok Jing once order the execution of a Sung soldier who fell asleep on the job while guarding the wall of Seung Yeung Fortress? Granted, discipline and sacrifice are part and parcel of military service, especially in wartime, but I thought it was kind of harsh. Moreover, Gwok Jing has the reputation for generally being a forgiving guy.

[Alinda]

hmm... the whole city was at stake perhaps he felt the need to do what he did.

[pannonian]

Here's another Gwok Jing-related one...this one from ROCH (I think).

Didn't Gwok Jing once order the execution of a Sung soldier who fell asleep on the job while guarding the wall of Seung Yeung Fortress? Granted, discipline and sacrifice are part and parcel of military service, especially in wartime, but I thought it was kind of harsh. Moreover, Gwok Jing has the reputation for generally being a forgiving guy.

"36 When this time comes, the man to whom the first watch fell by lot makes his rounds accompanied by some friends as witnesses. He visits the posts mentioned in his orders, not only those near the vallum and the gates, but the pickets also of the infantry maniples and cavalry squadrons. If he finds the guards of the first watch awake he receives their tessera, but if he finds that anyone is asleep or has left his post, he calls those with him to witness the fact, and proceeds on his rounds. Those who go the rounds in the succeeding watches act in a similar manner. As I said, the charge of sounding a bugle at the beginning of each watch, so that those going the rounds may visit the different stations at the right time, falls on the centurions of the first maniple of the triarii in each legion, who take it by turns for a day.

Each of the men who have gone the rounds brings back the tesserae at daybreak to the tribune. If they deliver them all they are suffered to depart without question; but if one of them delivers fewer than the number of stations visited, they find out from examining the signs on the tesserae which station is missing, and on ascertaining this the tribune calls the centurion of the maniple and he brings before him the men who were on picket duty, and they are confronted with the patrol. If the fault is that of the picket, the patrol makes matters clear at once by calling the men who had accompanied him, for he is bound to do this; but if nothing of the kind has happened, the fault rests on him.

37 A court-martial composed of all the tribunes at once meets to try him, and if he is found guilty he is punished by the bastinado (fustuarium). This is inflicted as follows: The tribune takes a cudgel and just touches the condemned man with it, after which all in the camp beat or stone him, in most cases dispatching him in the camp itself. But even those who manage to escape are not saved thereby: impossible! for they are not allowed to return to their homes, and none of the family would dare to receive such a man in his house. So that those who have of course fallen into this misfortune are utterly ruined. The same punishment is inflicted on the optio and on the praefect of the squadron, if they do not give the proper orders at the right time to the patrols and the praefect of the next squadron. Thus, owing to the extreme severity and inevitableness of the penalty, the night watches of the Roman army are most scrupulously kept."

Polybius of Megalopolis, Histories.

[Ken Cheng]

It all makes sense from a military discipline point of view, but I kind of wonder if Jin Yong, as a wuxia novelist trying to sell an image of this character (Gwok Jing) as a heroic man of compassion, might have been better served to spare his character such a moment by not putting him into this situation. To create an image of a character a certain way, there are certain stories that authors probably should think twice about telling about him. Superman's writers, after all, don't write stories about Superman contemplating killing sprees against bad guys because they know such stories would hurt their character's image.

[tape]

It all makes sense from a military discipline point of view, but I kind of wonder if Jin Yong, as a wuxia novelist trying to sell an image of this character (Gwok Jing) as a heroic man of compassion, might have been better served to spare his character such a moment by putting him in this situation. To create an image of a character a certain way, there are certain stories that authors probably should think twice about telling about them. Superman's writers, after all, don't write stories about Superman going on killing sprees against bad guys because they know it'd hurt their character's image.

I agree with this, after all we are spared the details of where Huang Rong used the bathroom during her 7 days 7 nights healing Guo Jing .

I don't know exactly which scene you're referring to, but it does sound like that scene seems unnecessary. Even if JY wanted to portray GJ as strict when it concerns the safety of the country, the scene where he willingly sacrifices Guo Xiang does it fine.

[tape]

Another thing I don't look is the whole simplicity over complexity idea of HIS that is supposed to be superior to all the Greats' martial art theories. It doesn't sound terribly innovative, and the 18 Dragon Palms are supposed to follow that principle anyway.

[Banh Mi]

Here's another Gwok Jing-related one...this one from ROCH (I think).

Didn't Gwok Jing once order the execution of a Sung soldier who fell asleep on the job while guarding the wall of Seung Yeung Fortress? Granted, discipline and sacrifice are part and parcel of military service, especially in wartime, but I thought it was kind of harsh. Moreover, Gwok Jing has the reputation for generally being a forgiving guy.

Guo Jing relied entirely on Yue Fei's manual for his success. If wikipedia is to be believed, Yue Fei ordered the execution of his son for falling off a horse, but was dissuaded due to everyone else around him being pussies, and had his men executed for not following orders correctly. Guo Jing nearly dismembered his own daughter until persuaded otherwise by the wimps around him. It stands to reason that GJ would regard the methods of Yue Fei as gospel.

What I found weird: GX leaving a 12 year old Zhang San Feng to find Xiang Yang city by himself. He's a 12 year old kid that's never been to the outside world, gross neglegience any way you look at it.

[Ken Cheng]

Guo Jing relied entirely on Yue Fei's manual for his success. If wikipedia is to be believed, Yue Fei ordered the execution of his son for falling off a horse, but was dissuaded due to everyone else around him being pussies, and had his men executed for not following orders correctly. Guo Jing nearly dismembered his own daughter until persuaded otherwise by the wimps around him. It stands to reason that GJ would regard the methods of Yue Fei as gospel.

What I found weird: GX leaving a 12 year old Zhang San Feng to find Xiang Yang city by himself. He's a 12 year old kid that's never been to the outside world, gross neglegience any way you look at it.

By the time Gwok Seung and Cheung Gwun Bo met again in the opening chapters of HSDS, Cheung Gwun Bo was sixteen. That's still very young, of course, but no younger than Gwok Seung herself was when she went wandering off in search of the Divine Condor Hero for the first time.

[pannonian]

Guo Jing relied entirely on Yue Fei's manual for his success. If wikipedia is to be believed, Yue Fei ordered the execution of his son for falling off a horse, but was dissuaded due to everyone else around him being pussies, and had his men executed for not following orders correctly. Guo Jing nearly dismembered his own daughter until persuaded otherwise by the wimps around him. It stands to reason that GJ would regard the methods of Yue Fei as gospel.

What I found weird: GX leaving a 12 year old Zhang San Feng to find Xiang Yang city by himself. He's a 12 year old kid that's never been to the outside world, gross neglegience any way you look at it.

Yue Fei is bettered by the Roman consul Titus Manlius Torquatus, who issued the order that no man were to leave his post on pain of death. During skirmishes, his son left the line to engage some Latin soldiers. Rather than praise him for his courage, Torquatus reiterated his earlier orders, and had his son executed.

[Doc Kwok]

Guo Jing relied entirely on Yue Fei's manual for his success. If wikipedia is to be believed, Yue Fei ordered the execution of his son for falling off a horse, but was dissuaded due to everyone else around him being pussies, and had his men executed for not following orders correctly. Guo Jing nearly dismembered his own daughter until persuaded otherwise by the wimps around him. It stands to reason that GJ would regard the methods of Yue Fei as gospel.

Reminds me of Zhang Wuji after reading the war manual and being appointed the leader of the wulin forces at Shaolin - his first line of business was to appoint the head of the metal banner as the head of discipline, with the standing order that anyone who disobeyed orders was to be reduced into purée on-the-spot by the weapons of the metal banner, regardless of who they were.

[Ken Cheng]

My question remains: does all this negatively affect our perceptions of these characters as heroes? Should it?

[Banh Mi]

Yue Fei is bettered by the Roman consul Titus Manlius Torquatus, who issued the order that no man were to leave his post on pain of death. During skirmishes, his son left the line to engage some Latin soldiers. Rather than praise him for his courage, Torquatus reiterated his earlier orders, and had his son executed.

I guess that's why his middle name was manly.

[pannonian]

I guess that's why his middle name was manly.

It gets better. When the priests said that whichever side first lost its commander would win the battle, Manlius and his fellow consul Publius Decius Mus agreed to fight the battle as normal with each consul commanding a different wing, but whoever's wing was first in trouble would sacrifice themselves accordingly. Manlius's wing went well, but Decius's wing was collapsing, so Decius did the appropriate ritual before charging into the enemy ranks and getting himself killed. Decius's wing rallied, and the Romans won the battle.

[Banh Mi]

This guy's much more interesting than Gaius Marius.