Dog beating technique vs DG9J?

[yangguo_]

What do you guys think?



Also, who was considered the best user of the dog beating technique?
What was YG's proficiency level of the dog beating technique?

[devilz91]

What do you guys think?

DG9J is most likely the more sophisticated technique.

Also, who was considered the best user of the dog beating technique?

Xiao Feng would be the best who knows the dog beating technique, but since he never uses it, Hong Qigong is the best user.

What was YG's proficiency level?

Yang Guo doesn't know DG9J.

[yangguo_]

I meany YG's proficiency level of the dog beating technique

[Trien Chieu]

What do you guys think?

DG9J is way better. It's by far the best in JY universe.

Also, who was considered the best user of the dog beating technique?

H7G

What was YG's proficiency level of the dog beating technique?

I would say about 3 out of 10.

[Ken Cheng]

Dog Beating Stick Technique will lose because it still follows some rules with rhyme and reason; Dook Goo 9 Swords seems to do whatever it wants, irrespective of the laws of physics or any other material considerations.

[yangguo_]

DG9J isn't invincible though.

I was just reading ROHC and the way it was described, dog beating technique seemed pretty damn good.

So, would DG9J completely shatter dog beating technique?

Also, what about wooden sword/no sword mastery vs DG9J?

[tape]

Performance wise and author intention wise it seems that Dugu's techniques are above any Great-level technique, so it should be better than Dog Beating Stick.

I'm a believer that Dugu 9 Jian is below HIS since the progression is HIS --> Wooden Sword --> No Sword. Dugu 9 Jian is not mentioned at all, and I think No Sword should clearly be Dugu's ultimate creation. It always made sense to me that DG9J could be the sword stage where he accidentally hurt a righteous man considering Linghu Chong's response to a lot of sword moves is a risky common ruin technique.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that Dugu 9 Jian could BE Dugu's own interpretation of the Wooden Sword stage -- after all Yang Guo thought the HIS could be defeated through superior power or superior speed. It doesn't really go against the whole simplicity defeating complexity thing either, since a master Dugu 9 Jian user is pretty much thrusting out the most simple sword move that can defeat the opponent.

[ChronoReverse]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that Dugu 9 Jian could BE Dugu's own interpretation of the Wooden Sword stage -- after all Yang Guo thought the HIS could be defeated through superior power or superior speed. It doesn't really go against the whole simplicity defeating complexity thing either, since a master Dugu 9 Jian user is pretty much thrusting out the most simple sword move that can defeat the opponent.

Me and RWX have both mentioned this possibility many times. DG9J itself doesn't really match up the regular sword stage nor does it match up the flexible sword (the one that hurt a righteous man) in its philosophy.

It feels more like DG9J is meant to be the road towards true formlessness. FCY himself explained it rather clearly:

A non-martial artist is formless but easy to defeat for any martial artist. But once you gain understanding of martial arts, you then need to discard its forms again in order to achieve a higher level of mastery.

When two formless masters duel, the higher comprehension wins. DG9J culminates the essence of all martial arts and thus is the strongest basis to begin the road to the no-sword stage which is FCY clearly told LHC to master DG9J and then forget its stances.

[tape]

Hrm, why don't you think the flexible sword matches Dugu 9 Jian philosophy? We know nothing at all about the flexible sword except her used it before thirty, and that he accidentally wounded someone. The overtone of the description suggests it is imperfect since it is not entirely controllable which is likely why he moved onto blunt, wood, and no edge swords. I think Dugu 9 Jian (at least as used by LHC) fits it nicely; a lot of times the best and only move to use against opponents is a risky common ruin technique. Misjudge once and you either get heavily injured or you heavily injure the opposition, or perhaps both. The proceeding swords will accidentally injure people much less severely.

Do you consider HIS formless? I do, so it is not very strange that HIS is above Dugu 9 Jian.

[yangguo_]

I'm a believer that Dugu 9 Jian is below HIS since the progression is HIS --> Wooden Sword --> No Sword. Dugu 9 Jian is not mentioned at all, and I think No Sword should clearly be Dugu's ultimate creation. It always made sense to me that DG9J could be the sword stage where he accidentally hurt a righteous man considering Linghu Chong's response to a lot of sword moves is a risky common ruin technique.

I also agree with this.

DG9J should be pre wooden sword/no sword, because it still requires a sword.

Isn't HIS to train inner energy?

[ChronoReverse]

I think Dugu 9 Jian (at least as used by LHC) fits it nicely; a lot of times the best and only move to use against opponents is a risky common ruin technique. Misjudge once and you either get heavily injured or you heavily injure the opposition, or perhaps both. The proceeding swords will accidentally injure people much less severely.

Not really. This method isn't exclusive to LHC first of all (at least in JY's stories) and is discarded when LHC wasn't half-dead. LHC did risk attacks at weak points where if he were wrong, he'd lose/die but that's not the same thing as a common ruin technique.

That is to say, it explicitly says LHC would be using a method that appears to be common ruin but actually hits first and wins. Furthermore, DG9J is never characterized as a "weapon of ruin" but an "overcoming sword" which is much closer to the wooden and no-sword.


As for the non-mention of DG9J, you can't really use it as proof that it must therefore be the first stage. FCY clearly emphasizes that it's the entry to formlessness. He explicitly talks about the path from non-martial artist formlessness to master of forms to true formless mastery. He even scolds LHC for adhering to the sword.

He'd certainly scold those who keep insisting DG9J requires the sword and those who keep thinking about its forms instead of using its comprehension to move on to formlessness

[ChronoReverse]

Again, the key point to it is the discussion of "what happens when two formless masters meet and duel?"

The answer is the one with higher comprehension wins.

Therefore, if your foundation is stronger (the aspects of this would be your physical and mental abilities combined with your experiences and original martial arts), then you will be stronger.

Mental and physical abilities are inborn. The degree you can train it to is set. Assuming no overwhelming advantages there, the remaining factors would be experience and the base martial art. And the strongest possible set would be something like DG9J, just nine stances, but encompassing the entirety of martial arts.


It's already covered by FCY's training of LHC. He clearly told LHC that he'll need much more experience and that his formlessness will be coloured by his existing martial arts. For LHC, his DG9J is overlaid by Huashan Sword and he will eventually have to forget his stances to achieve true mastery.


In any case, RWX explains this a lot better than I do.

[tape]

Not really. This method isn't exclusive to LHC first of all (at least in JY's stories) and is discarded when LHC wasn't half-dead. LHC did risk attacks at weak points where if he were wrong, he'd lose/die but that's not the same thing as a common ruin technique.

That is to say, it explicitly says LHC would be using a method that appears to be common ruin but actually hits first and wins. Furthermore, DG9J is never characterized as a "weapon of ruin" but an "overcoming sword" which is much closer to the wooden and no-sword.


As for the non-mention of DG9J, you can't really use it as proof that it must therefore be the first stage. FCY clearly emphasizes that it's the entry to formlessness. He explicitly talks about the path from non-martial artist formlessness to master of forms to true formless mastery. He even scolds LHC for adhering to the sword.

He'd certainly scold those who keep insisting DG9J requires the sword and those who keep thinking about its forms instead of using its comprehension to move on to formlessness

Ah, I never meant for there to be proof that DG9J is one way or the other, just that it doesn't really contradict itself one way or the other.

I think even formlessness has levels to it -- for example Taiji has the same concept to memorize form and technique and then forget it, the fight between Chongxu and Linghu Chong seems to indicate Dugu 9 Jian is on a higher level.

I agree DG9J leads to formlessness, but I don't think formlessness is the magnus opus of Dugu's creations either; HIS, Wooden, No Sword are all formless but they are classified as different levels for a reason. Just like Hong Qigong and the Greats can seemingly fight formlessly (by creating new moves and techniques on the spot), they are more powerful fighting with form because they haven't hit that level yet. I think Dugu 9 Jian is an entry level formless philosophy, while HIS and above are more advanced formless theories.

For example, LHC sees a weakness and attacks it with the best possible sword move he can think of at the moment, but perhaps HIS works by attacking and not caring about any weaknesses because it no longer matters. Your martial art has reached the point where attacking any point of the other person either creates more weaknesses in the opposition or defeats him outright. This isn't exactly how it's been portrayed, but I think it could be a theoretically better philosophy than "recognize their weakness and strike".

[yangguo_]

I think by formlessness he means no stance, not no sword.
After all, DG9J are sword techniques. Taiji Sword formless is still Taiji Sword not Taiji Fist.

HIS, Wooden/No sword are formless.

It's possible DG9J was developed before the first sword level too. With the first sword level, already "none could withstand" it.

[yangguo_]

For example, LHC sees a weakness and attacks it with the best possible sword move he can think of at the moment, but perhaps HIS works by attacking and not caring about any weaknesses because it no longer matters. Your martial art has reached the point where attacking any point of the other person either creates more weaknesses in the opposition or defeats him outright. This isn't exactly how it's been portrayed, but I think it could be a theoretically better philosophy than "recognize their weakness and strike".

Yeah with HIS, is so heavy and with high internal energy, he just slashes and blasts through everything. Forces people to defend or avoid.

[PJ]

For example, LHC sees a weakness and attacks it with the best possible sword move he can think of at the moment, but perhaps HIS works by attacking and not caring about any weaknesses because it no longer matters. Your martial art has reached the point where attacking any point of the other person either creates more weaknesses in the opposition or defeats him outright. This isn't exactly how it's been portrayed, but I think it could be a theoretically better philosophy than "recognize their weakness and strike".

HIS requires massive internal energy AND superior weapon. DG9J requires neither, though it is enhanced by internal energy. Therefore DG9J is more flexible and efficient.

My view for a while has been that Dugu 9 Jian is an alternative, not complement, to ROCH's stages. It is all of Dugu Qiubai's pre-no sword stages rolled into one simpler technique. It starts at the beginning but gets to advanced faster. Jin Yong offered no explanation for the differences, but a reasonable explanation is Dugu Qiubai personally went thru the stages described in ROCH, but in the end realized there is a more efficient way. That's when he came up with Dugu 9 Jian.

Dugu 9 Jian leads well into the no-sword stage. It doesn't really make sense to go into HIS after Dugu 9 Jian. They seem to be peers more than a sequence.

[Doc Kwok]

I think it is important to distinguish DG9J from formlessness - they are not one and the same. It is hard to say whether DG9J has predetermined stances or not (at one point the novel says that it consisted entirely of 'sword intention' without any stances, yet there are many, many instances where he was said to be using specific techniques from DG9J - e.g. when practising and he ended up lapsing back into Huashan swordplay repeatedly, when fighting Fang Sheng, and when fighting YBQ in Shaolin when he unconsciously switched from using formless/random swordplay to DG9J and disarmed him), but it clearly emphasises 'intention' over 'form', with the former taking increasing importance as the user gains in experience (Xing Yi Quan has similar concepts, seldom realized!).

It is in no way 'simple' though - saying that it is simple because all you need to do is to stick your sword into the opponent's weakness is like saying a game of Weiqi/Go is simple because all you need to do is to capture more territory than your opponent by putting down stones. The objective is clear, the physical actions may be straightforward, but the reasoning behind it is not. DG9J may be the most complex of all in this regard, with the primary stance alone containing 360 variations - even if each of those variations was dead simple (and you would generally only ever pick one variation to apply at a time), the art is still insanely complicated overall.

Also, simply spotting and attacking the opponent's weakness would not result in the space-bending properties of DG9J, whereby with magical timing and angles, LHC would pre-empt an opponent moving at the same time without even needing to move quickly. There are also times (e.g. against RWX's complicated swordplay, and YBQ's Pixie sword) when his own moves also became super-complicated, because DG9J teaches you to adapt to your opponent, regardless of complexity.

Heavy iron->Wood->No sword seem to me to be later developments from DG9J because it also abandons all the myriad 'intentions' of DG9J (in addition to 'abandon form') but one - 'hit your opponent'! This is in line with the concept of '返璞歸真' (fan pu gui zhen/fan pok gwai zhan) emphasised in Taoism - paring everything down to its most simple, fundamental form. It is hard to let go of the idea that 'more is better' though (even LHC thought that the more complex an art was, the better it must be), and conservative Chinese society is among the worst at it, to its own detriment.

[pannonian]

HIS requires massive internal energy AND superior weapon. DG9J requires neither, though it is enhanced by internal energy. Therefore DG9J is more flexible and efficient.

My view for a while has been that Dugu 9 Jian is an alternative, not complement, to ROCH's stages. It is all of Dugu Qiubai's pre-no sword stages rolled into one simpler technique. It starts at the beginning but gets to advanced faster. Jin Yong offered no explanation for the differences, but a reasonable explanation is Dugu Qiubai personally went thru the stages described in ROCH, but in the end realized there is a more efficient way. That's when he came up with Dugu 9 Jian.

Dugu 9 Jian leads well into the no-sword stage. It doesn't really make sense to go into HIS after Dugu 9 Jian. They seem to be peers more than a sequence.

The theory of HIS, as realised by Yang Guo, assumes a complete understanding of formlessness as described in SPW. YG succeeds with it due to superior weaponry, but his exploring the next stage is exploring how to defeat himself, ie. looking at the question of what happens when 2 formless masters compete. Although with YG's personality, the next stage after the HIS and what he assumed to be the wooden sword was boredom due to not having anything to aspire to, and combining all his MA knowledge into a completely different form, just for the kicks.

[Ace High]

Heavy iron->Wood->No sword seem to me to be later developments from DG9J because it also abandons all the myriad 'intentions' of DG9J (in addition to 'abandon form') but one - 'hit your opponent'! This is in line with the concept of '返璞歸真' (fan pu gui zhen/fan pok gwai zhan) emphasised in Taoism - paring everything down to its most simple, fundamental form. It is hard to let go of the idea that 'more is better' though (even LHC thought that the more complex an art was, the better it must be), and conservative Chinese society is among the worst at it, to its own detriment.

If we only take the 'hit your opponent' aspect, then it’s not a sword skill anymore. Substitute the Heavy Iron Sword with a steel mace then we’d get the same result. Or give anybody the same strength as Yang Guo. The training Yang Guo did was more to strength training anyway.

[yangguo_]

My view for a while has been that Dugu 9 Jian is an alternative, not complement, to ROCH's stages. It is all of Dugu Qiubai's pre-no sword stages rolled into one simpler technique. It starts at the beginning but gets to advanced faster. Jin Yong offered no explanation for the differences, but a reasonable explanation is Dugu Qiubai personally went thru the stages described in ROCH, but in the end realized there is a more efficient way. That's when he came up with Dugu 9 Jian.

Dugu 9 Jian leads well into the no-sword stage. It doesn't really make sense to go into HIS after Dugu 9 Jian. They seem to be peers more than a sequence.

His final resting place was the cave with the 4 swords. I think it's more likely to assume that the final collection of his life's work would be at his resting place, and that dg9j was already developed way before, since that is what he probably used to gain the title of sword demon.