Golden Wheel Monk vs. Gung Sheun Tze

[Ken Cheng]

Consider this one carefully before responding: it's easy to think, "Hmmm...Golden Wheel Monk was a Great or near-Great; Gung Sheun Tze was an exceptional fighter, but nowhere near a Great. The Golden Wheel Monk wins!" I don't think it's that simple.

Gung Sheun Tze's martial arts were rather odd. As we know, the Golden Wheel Monk struggles against unusual techniques, even if they aren't necessarily overwhelmingly powerful. We've seen the Golden Wheel Monk struggle against lesser opponents before (Lee Mok Sau, Little Dragon Girl, and most hilariously, Ma Gwong Jor). Do you think that perhaps Gung Sheun Tze could actually win a round against the Golden Wheel Monk?

[PJ]

No, I don't think Gongsun Zhi could actually win, but yeah, his unconventional technique could very well pose trouble for Pre-16 years Goldie.

[Banh Mi]

Gongsun Zhi's martial arts is inferior to his wife, who we might assume is inferior to her brother QQR. QQR is inferior to ZBT who is roughly equal to Goldie. Just some theorycrafting.

[PJ]

Gongsun Zhi's martial arts is inferior to his wife, who we might assume is inferior to her brother QQR. QQR is inferior to ZBT who is roughly equal to Goldie. Just some theorycrafting.

That's post-16 years Goldie who seemed to have gotten better. I do think that version would squash GZS with more ease.

The Pre-16 year version is the one that got hit on the head by Ma Guangzuo (who is no match for Yang Tiexin).

[tape]

What are some other examples of Goldie having trouble handling techniques besides martial arts that anyone would have trouble with such as XLN's double swordplay or Dog Beating Stick?

I mean we know that even amongst equals like the original Greats, new techniques would likely have given them a lot of trouble/advantages too which is the reason why OYF and H7G kept their Snake Fists and Dog Beating Stick a secret respectively. Crazy OYF was beating the Greats with no real "technique" but just fighting in a super unorthodox manner.

[PJ]

What are some other examples of Goldie having trouble handling techniques besides martial arts that anyone would have trouble with such as XLN's double swordplay or Dog Beating Stick?

I don't recall the details of him having trouble with DBS, but it was probably from HR or YG. 16 years later, he destroyed HR's DBS in one stance, while fighting ZBT. Big improvement.

There are many other examples of him underperforming in ways another Great wouldn't be subjected to: not being able to subdue Li Mochou, having his meat about to put in his mouth snatched by ZBT, getting hit on the head by Ma Guangzuo, having trouble with NMX's rock throwing. etc.

I mean we know that even amongst equals like the original Greats, new techniques would likely have given them a lot of trouble/advantages too which is the reason why OYF and H7G kept their Snake Fists and Dog Beating Stick a secret respectively. Crazy OYF was beating the Greats with no real "technique" but just fighting in a super unorthodox manner.

Crazy OYF is a Great, it's not surprising his weird technique can outsmart another Great. The ppl GWM had trouble with were far below Great level.

[tape]

OYF and QQR often had more trouble than they should have against GJ in LOCH, though I guess that can be attributed to protagonist shield.

GJ was also able to resist HYS's flute for quite a while, which is surprising considering how easily HYS affected Li Mochou with his flute in ROCH -- and I think Li at that point should have deeper inner strength than Guo Jing at that point.

[PJ]

OYF and QQR often had more trouble than they should have against GJ in LOCH, though I guess that can be attributed to protagonist shield.

Yeah, ppl always have more trouble than should against protagonist

What makes Goldie unique is that his trouble is ubiquitous.

[Ken Cheng]

I think there's a subtext here involving the Golden Wheel Monk's lack of confidence in his abilities against unusual martial arts techniques such as Gung Sheun Tze's and the monk's refusal to help Yeung Gor at Passionless Valley. Consider this:

At the time, the Golden Wheel Monk had just invested considerable effort into recruiting Yeung Gor as a key component in the Mongols' plans to eliminate Gwok Jing. The Golden Wheel Monk considered Yeung Gor a very valuable tool to use against Gwok Jing, but at the time that the monk and Yeung Gor got involved with Passionless Valley, that plan hadn't been implemented yet. The Golden Wheel Monk wouldn't want to sacrifice such a valuable asset before he got a chance to use him...unless he couldn't afford to keep him. I think that the Golden Wheel Monk did the math in his head and figured that he *wasn't* sure that he could definitely beat Gung Sheun Tze, and though Yeung Gor was valuable to the monk's and his fellow Mongols' plans to eliminate Gwok Jing, the monk wasn't going to risk his neck on Yeung Gor's account.

[PJ]

At the time, the Golden Wheel Monk had just invested considerable effort into recruiting Yeung Gor as a key component in the Mongols' plans to eliminate Gwok Jing. The Golden Wheel Monk considered Yeung Gor a very valuable tool to use against Gwok Jing, but at the time that the monk and Yeung Gor got involved with Passionless Valley, that plan hadn't been implemented yet. The Golden Wheel Monk wouldn't want to sacrifice such a valuable asset before he got a chance to use him...unless he couldn't afford to keep him. I think that the Golden Wheel Monk did the math in his head and figured that he *wasn't* sure that he could definitely beat Gung Sheun Tze, and though Yeung Gor was valuable to the monk's and his fellow Mongols' plans to eliminate Gwok Jing, the monk wasn't going to risk his neck on Yeung Gor's account.

Did not happen in the novel.

[Ken Cheng]

Did not happen in the novel.

Nor in any adaptation. This is open speculation time.

[PJ]

Nor in any adaptation. This is open speculation time.

I mean, as far as I can remember, at no point did Goldie feel threatened by GSZ, nor was he interested in fighting GSZ. As for why Goldie turned against YG at Passionless Valley, it was explained to be him wanting to get square with the previous humuliation he suffered against YG + XLN. Nothing to do with GSZ.

[Ken Cheng]

I mean, as far as I can remember, at no point did Goldie feel threatened by GSZ, nor was he interested in fighting GSZ. As for why Goldie turned against YG at Passionless Valley, it was explained to be him wanting to get square with the previous humuliation he suffered against YG + XLN. Nothing to do with GSZ.

The Golden Wheel Monk likely would have wanted to eventually dispose of Yeung Gor (for said humiliations, etc.), but wouldn't it make more sense to do that *after* he had used Yeung Gor to eliminate Gwok Jing? The whole point of recruiting Yeung Gor, introducing him to Prince Kublai, etc., was to use Yeung Gor to backstab Gwok Jing...something that the Golden Wheel Monk and the other Mongols were keen to achieve. At Passionless Valley, Yeung Gor hadn't outlived his usefulness to the monk and the Mongol Empire yet in terms of eliminating Gwok Jing. After Yeung Gor had accomplished that mission, THEN the monk could have exacted his revenge on Yeung Gor as well.

It seems like such a waste for the monk to go through all that trouble to recruit Yeung Gor, only to let the Passionless Valley people kill him before he could help the Mongols to kill Gwok Jing.

[tape]

Perhaps that can be used as an argument against his cowardice then -- he was confident enough in his own abilities that he would eventually find a way to handle Guo Jing. Not exactly the smartest thing to do, but it can be viewed as confidence.

[Ken Cheng]

Perhaps that can be used as an argument against his cowardice then -- he was confident enough in his own abilities that he would eventually find a way to handle Guo Jing. Not exactly the smartest thing to do, but it can be viewed as confidence.

Maybe it dawned on the Golden Wheel Monk at Passionless Valley that if he used Yeung Gor to backstab Gwok Jing, it'd be a safer and easier (for the monk) way to accomplish the goal of eliminating the Mongol Empire's greatest enemy, but Yeung Gor would get all the credit and the glory. The Golden Wheel Monk wanted that credit and glory for himself, so letting Yeung Gor get it would not have been acceptable.

[pannonian]

Maybe it dawned on the Golden Wheel Monk at Passionless Valley that if he used Yeung Gor to backstab Gwok Jing, it'd be a safer and easier (for the monk) way to accomplish the goal of eliminating the Mongol Empire's greatest enemy, but Yeung Gor would get all the credit and the glory. The Golden Wheel Monk wanted that credit and glory for himself, so letting Yeung Gor get it would not have been acceptable.

At the time of the Passionless Valley episode, GWM had been in danger from Yang Guo twice, once when YG and Xiao Longnu figured out the Lovers' swordplay, the other when he was still recuperating from being crushed by a large boulder when Yang Guo happened on him. He didn't feel any threat from Guo Jing, who despite his high martial arts followed wulin rules and was thus predictable. But Yang Guo, weak though he individually was, followed no rules other than his own whim, and in certain circumstances posed a real threat to GWM.

[ChronoReverse]

GJ was also able to resist HYS's flute for quite a while, which is surprising considering how easily HYS affected Li Mochou with his flute in ROCH -- and I think Li at that point should have deeper inner strength than Guo Jing at that point.

This is explained in the novel. ZBT's heart and mind had some emotional turmoil because of Yinggu and Yideng. GJ's heart and mind were clear and thus even with much less internal energy, he could resist the flute.

Likewise, LMC had a lot of emotional baggage because of her failed love. She'd have no chance at resisting the flute.

[Ken Cheng]

This is explained in the novel. ZBT's heart and mind had some emotional turmoil because of Yinggu and Yideng. GJ's heart and mind were clear and thus even with much less internal energy, he could resist the flute.

Oddly, this suggests that if Wong Yerk See had tried the flute against Gwok Jing again later during LOCH (after the deaths of the Gong Nam 5 Freaks and Gwok Jing's mother), Wong would have had more success.

[Ian Liew]

This is explained in the novel. ZBT's heart and mind had some emotional turmoil because of Yinggu and Yideng. GJ's heart and mind were clear and thus even with much less internal energy, he could resist the flute.

Likewise, LMC had a lot of emotional baggage because of her failed love. She'd have no chance at resisting the flute.

I think that would apply to only that particular tune. Huang Yaoshi could play many different tunes with many different effects and it's hard to compare his opponent reactions across the novels(s). The tune he played when testing Ouyang Ke and Guo Jing's rhythm abilities, although not initially intended as a harmful tune, was certainly quite a handful for the two young men regardless of their emotional state, but even then Guo Jing managed to resist for quite a while (maybe his completely out of rhythm beats helped to break the spell of the melody). The tune he played to repel Ouyang Ke and his followers when they were attacking Mei Chaofeng would be a better example of a really hostile tune - and Ouyang Ke had to abandon his men, maids and snakes and flee for his life very very quickly, whereas with the rhythm test he managed to last quite a while as well. Similarly, I'd expect the tune he played for Li Mochou was quite a deadly one (regardless of emotional state), and certainly not of the same type which he played against Zhou Botong and Guo Jing at Peach Blossom Island, so it's probably not quite an accurate gauge of Li's inner power compared to Guo Jing's.

[pannonian]

I think that would apply to only that particular tune. Huang Yaoshi could play many different tunes with many different effects and it's hard to compare his opponent reactions across the novels(s). The tune he played when testing Ouyang Ke and Guo Jing's rhythm abilities, although not initially intended as a harmful tune, was certainly quite a handful for the two young men regardless of their emotional state, but even then Guo Jing managed to resist for quite a while (maybe his completely out of rhythm beats helped to break the spell of the melody). The tune he played to repel Ouyang Ke and his followers when they were attacking Mei Chaofeng would be a better example of a really hostile tune - and Ouyang Ke had to abandon his men, maids and snakes and flee for his life very very quickly, whereas with the rhythm test he managed to last quite a while as well. Similarly, I'd expect the tune he played for Li Mochou was quite a deadly one (regardless of emotional state), and certainly not of the same type which he played against Zhou Botong and Guo Jing at Peach Blossom Island, so it's probably not quite an accurate gauge of Li's inner power compared to Guo Jing's.

The tune he played during the test started out as an ordinary tune, intended to test their musical ability. It wasn't until Guo Jing decided to turn it into a martial arts contest that Huang Yaoshi started applying internal force into it, and Ouyang Ke succumbed immediately. Guo Jing managed to resist by using his L/R skill to keep breaking the rhythm.