The Greats *should* have been successful in decapitation attacks against the Mongols

[Ken Cheng]

Because Jin Yong's wuxia novels *generally* (though not always in the details) follow established facts of history, the Sung Dynasty of China *had* to fall to the Mongols.

Setting that idea aside, however, the Greats logically *should* have been able to end the Mongol threat to Sung China by launching "decapitation attacks" to take out the Mongol leadership.

1. The Mongols were great warriors, but without effective leaders, they would not be able to overthrow a powerful established state such as the Sung Kingdom. In history, the outnumbered Mongol warriors were successful against seemingly more powerful enemies not only because the Mongols were disciplined, hardy, and determined, but also because they had intelligent and charismatic leaders. Without leaders such as Temujin, Jebe, Jochi, Ogodei, Chagahatai, Tolui, Mongke, Kublai, and others, the great Mongol Empire could not have come into being and been dominant throughout Eurasia for the better part of a century.

2. Wulin martial artists, no matter how powerful, cannot defeat entire armies in straight up combat, but as seen in DGSD (Kiu Fung, Hui Juk, and Deun Yu going around the Khitan army to reach Emperor Yeh Lut Hung Gei) and ROCH (Yeung Gor going through the Mongol army to kill Mongke Khan), it's not hard for Greats-or-higher level martial artists to go *around* armies to kill emperors, princes, and individual generals.

3. At the end of ROCH, wulin had five Greats and a few other fighters (e.g. Little Dragon Girl, Wong Yung) who were also very high-level.

4. The Mongols had lost their best wulin warrior (Golden Wheel Monk) and a few other powerful warriors (e.g. Lui Mor Singh, Wan Hak Sai, and Siu Seung Tze). Unless there were others Jin Yong never told us about, they didn't have much left in the way of wulin-style martial artists to oppose China's Greats.

Given all that, it seems improbable that the New Five Greats, having staggered the Mongols by killing Mongke, the Golden Wheel Monk, and the remaining Mongol mercenaries, didn't press their advantage by similarly killing off Kublai and any remaining Mongol princes and generals capable of posing a threat to Sung China. With their skills, the Greats should easily have been able to get around the Mongol army to assassinate such princes and generals. An army can tear a Great apart (though only with extreme difficulty and at a terrible cost in personnel lost) if the Great chooses to stand his ground and fight the army, but an army can't do much against a Great (let alone five of them) if the Great chooses to use stealth and hit-and-run tactics, which would be all a Great would need to assassinate a Mongol khan, prince, or general. If the Greats killed enough of these, they would soon degrade the Mongol leadership so badly that the Mongols could no longer pose a serious threat to Sung China.

Alas, history...

[tape]

Same thing with how the Greats should be able to kill ~100 men a night easily. Even taking every other day off (being generous) would net close to 20,000 soldiers a year per Great.

It's always bothered me how someone like Miejue can seal the acupoints of ~50 people "in the blink of an eye", but those efforts can't be reproduced when it comes to chipping away at invading armies.

[Banh Mi]

OYF or anyone half as proficient as him in poison should be able to decimate entire armies by poisoning their rations/water supply, if the potency of their poison could be believed. Like that scented poison that crippled the beggar clan in DGSD, how is it that that army has not conquered the world with that?

[tape]

True, considering all the crazy poisons that exist, it shouldn't be hard to create one that doesn't affect you until 12 hours later. I would imagine nearly everyone in the camp would have eaten in a 12 hour window.

[Ken Cheng]

Dig this too: when South Emperor 1 Deng, Chow Bak Tung, and Wong Yung performed their reconnaissance mission on the Mongol base camp near Seung Yeung Fortress shortly before the end of ROCH, they were discovered by the Mongols and barely got away with their lives (Chow Bak Tung was even injured). This part never rang true to me because Greats-level fighters are 1). not supposed to be easily detected by ordinary soldiers when they don't want to be detected and 2). should be able to get away from any army safely as long as they don't decide to stand their ground and fight the army.

I don't think that a trio of 1 Deng, Chow Bak Tung, and end-of-ROCH Wong Yung would get themselves into such a predicament. They're too highly skilled and experienced for something like this to happen to them.

[30Rocker]

Maybe situations like those were in fact Jin Yong somehow trying show us that as powerful as these people are, they are still flesh and blood. Honestly, all it has managed to do is make the characters very inconsistent, as far as their powers and motivation go at least.

For instance, it really bothered me that Guo Jing seemed to sit around and do nothing while he was "protecting" Xiang Yang for decades. Don't get me wrong, there were several instances of great battles in the defense of the city, but when there was no imminent threat to China (the 16 year gap), why didn't Guo Jing and Huang Rong call for Zhou Bo Tong and Huang Yao Shi and plan some very specific, surgical missions to take out the top generals and warlords? Defense is important, but the Guo family seemed to neglect/not capitalize on instances that would have favored the pugilists. As Guo Jing himself said in Chapter 35:

"Your 'Dog Beating' skill and my 'Eighteen Dragon Subduing Palms' have not seen action for several years but they may not be rusty yet.”

Two of the premier offensive skills in the world, in the hands of two of the most powerful martial artists of the time who were also skilled tacticians, and they couldn't find a use for them for several years? Seems like a waste of both time and skill.

[tape]

Add in the reason for the Xiao Yuanshan's massacre (believing Liao soldiers would raid Shaolin and create super soldiers from their martial arts). If that plan could have worked, why didn't Guo Jing just teach all his soldiers basic Quanzhen internal and create unstoppable super soldiers?

[Ken Cheng]

Add in the reason for the Xiao Yuanshan's massacre (believing Liao soldiers would raid Shaolin and create super soldiers from their martial arts). If that plan could have worked, why didn't Guo Jing just teach all his soldiers basic Quanzhen internal and create unstoppable super soldiers?

A few limitations:

1. Cheun Jen Sect's martial arts were not Gwok Jing's to teach to anyone he chose. Out of respect for his teachers, Gwok Jing would have had to get approval from the Cheun Jen Sect Elders, and though patriotic, Yau Chui Gei, etc., might not have approved of teaching their sect's martial arts systems to large numbers of non-Taoists.

2. Such training would be time-intensive and thus, not ideal during wartime.

3. Not everyone has the talent for advanced martial arts.

4. What if those who are trained decide to betray the Sung defenders?

5. Ultimately, the Sung didn't lose to the Mongols because of inferior individual fighting prowess; the Sung lost because they were corrupt and demoralized, whereas the Mongols were at the peak of their power in terms of leadership and organization.

[tape]

A few limitations:

1. Cheun Jen Sect's martial arts were not Gwok Jing's to teach to anyone he chose. Out of respect for his teachers, Gwok Jing would have had to get approval from the Cheun Jen Sect Elders, and though patriotic, Yau Chui Gei, etc., might not have approved of teaching their sect's martial arts systems to large numbers of non-Taoists.

2. Such training would be time-intensive and thus, not ideal during wartime.

3. Not everyone has the talent for advanced martial arts.

4. What if those who are trained decide to betray the Sung defenders?

5. Ultimately, the Sung didn't lose to the Mongols because of inferior individual fighting prowess; the Sung lost because they were corrupt and demoralized, whereas the Mongols were at the peak of their power in terms of leadership and organization.

Aside from #1, the same limitations applied to the Liao Empire in DGSD. Either the plan would've worked or the wulin heroes of the time were dummies and overreacted.

With regards to #1, considering that Wang Chongyang was super patriot at heart, using his methods to repel invaders seems like a fine use.

[Ken Cheng]

Aside from #1, the same limitations applied to the Liao Empire in DGSD. Either the plan would've worked or the wulin heroes of the time were dummies and overreacted.

They overreacted. I don't think Mo Yung Bok's or Siu Yeun San's plans had much of a chance of working out.

[9dragonkings]

But your underestimating Wulin fighters from the Mongol empire, as seen in heaven sword and dragon saber there are Wulin fighters native to Mongolia. Though there are refined and concentrated amount of Wulin fighters in the central plains, they do not outnumber Wulin fighters native to Mongolia drastically enough to make a difference when both empires were at war. Just like how Song empire had their Wulin experts at their disposal so did the Mongols.

[Ken Cheng]

But your underestimating Wulin fighters from the Mongol empire, as seen in heaven sword and dragon saber there are Wulin fighters native to Mongolia. Though there are refined and concentrated amount of Wulin fighters in the central plains, they do not outnumber Wulin fighters native to Mongolia drastically enough to make a difference when both empires were at war. Just like how Song empire had their Wulin experts at their disposal so did the Mongols.

Most of the Yuan Dynasty's wulin fighters in HSDS were either Han traitors (Sing Kwun), Tibetan Buddhists (like the Golden Wheel Monk in ROCH, but none as powerful as he was), and a very few Mongols trained in wulin martial arts (like the guys who dueled with Kunlun Sect Leader Ho Tai Chung in Dadu). Even during HSDS, however, Mongolia itself didn't produce very many truly formidable wulin martial artists. The Mongol Empire mostly relied on foreigners for its martial arts support (during both the ROCH and HSDS timeframe).

During ROCH, if the Mongols had any significant martial artists on their payroll outside of the Golden Wheel Monk, Fok Do, Dat Yee Ba, Wan Hak Sai, Siu Seung Tze, and Lui Mor Singh (all of whom were dead or retired by the end of ROCH), Jin Yong did not feature them in the story.

[9dragonkings]

Most of the Yuan Dynasty's wulin fighters in HSDS were either Han traitors (Sing Kwun), Tibetan Buddhists (like the Golden Wheel Monk in ROCH, but none as powerful as he was), and a very few Mongols trained in wulin martial arts (like the guys who dueled with Kunlun Sect Leader Ho Tai Chung in Dadu). Even during HSDS, however, Mongolia itself didn't produce very many truly formidable wulin martial artists. The Mongol Empire mostly relied on foreigners for its martial arts support (during both the ROCH and HSDS timeframe).

During ROCH, if the Mongols had any significant martial artists on their payroll outside of the Golden Wheel Monk Fok Do, Dat Yee Ba, Wan Hak Sai, Siu Seung Tze, and Lui Mor Singh (all of whom were dead or retired by the end of ROCH), Jin Yong did not feature them in the story.

Jin Yong didn't feature Wulin characters doesn't mean they don't exist, it just mean they aren't relative to the story. They are more like assumed extras/backgrounds in a plot/movie. Golden Wheel Monk, though no mention of his students or clan members doesn't mean they don't exist. Though, I do agree that ROCH greats can kill off mongol general heads, guarded by soldiers, easily. But if the leaders were guarded by elite experts, sort of like the royal guards a king, then it would be relatively hard to do so.

Note:
They can always use Guerrilla warfare. Instead of taking on mass of soldiers, they can always divide and conquer. One great can take down 50 to 100 soldiers easily.

[skykh18]

Sometimes there is too much plotholes, i mean YG scream alone can knock out 200 tigers,200 monkeys and 400(i forget what animals) and Tse Tsun lion scream can make people "retarded" with distance of 500 zhangs. The greats can literally lift soldiers as ragdolls and sling them around or just use pebbles to shoot from 100 zhang to shatter their internal organs or use internal energy to play instruments and make them exhausting the whole legion.

[darkcser]

Sometimes there is too much plotholes, i mean YG scream alone can knock out 200 tigers,200 monkeys and 400(i forget what animals) and Tse Tsun lion scream can make people "retarded" with distance of 500 zhangs. The greats can literally lift soldiers as ragdolls and sling them around or just use pebbles to shoot from 100 zhang to shatter their internal organs or use internal energy to play instruments and make them exhausting the whole legion.

IIRC YG did use his roar against the Mongolian army when he made his approach to rescue GX. It might be good against hundreds but when faced with thousands or tens of thousands some common soldier will invariably get a lucky shot in -especially when armed with bows. ZBT had been wounded by arrows in an earlier clash with the Mongolians probably due to the same reason. There's also a stamina aspect to it: throwing a couple of folks around is child's play, throwing hundreds of people around while dodging arrows is going to wear you down pretty quick. Even if each Great could take out two hundred or more soldiers before being overwhelmed, it still wouldn't make that much of a dent.

[9dragonkings]

IIRC YG did use his roar against the Mongolian army when he made his approach to rescue GX. It might be good against hundreds but when faced with thousands or tens of thousands some common soldier will invariably get a lucky shot in -especially when armed with bows. ZBT had been wounded by arrows in an earlier clash with the Mongolians probably due to the same reason. There's also a stamina aspect to it: throwing a couple of folks around is child's play, throwing hundreds of people around while dodging arrows is going to wear you down pretty quick. Even if each Great could take out two hundred or more soldiers before being overwhelmed, it still wouldn't make that much of a dent.

Though ambushing/assassinating/rescuing prisoners in the enemy camp is an easy task for any great.
Realistically, no great would fight head on with an entire army, stamina issues. Smaller numbers can defeat larger numbers by Ambushing/Tactics/ Guerrilla warfare, refer to water margin.

Yes, if your can kill off the leadership of the army it may hold off the enemy for a period of time, at least before they can reorganize a new chain of command.

[tape]

We should come up with a list of ways where Greats should theoretically have been able to wipe out the Mongolian army over X amount of years. If enough people agree, it makes the list!

Something basic like having Guo Jing and the rest of the Greats shoot a couple dozen soldiers a day should already be enough. Guo Jing will outrange any archer the Mongolians have by a ton, and I imagine once the other high inner powered guys improve their archery, they too will outrange any soldier by far; effectively Guo Jing and company can shoot them, but they can't shoot you. To be even safer, have people with shields stand around them in case there are some sneaky ones that come closer from different angles.

100-200 soldiers a day shouldn't be out of the question, and they're forced to retreat their whole army while 10 guys chase them away. How irritating would it be to watch 10 guys shoot at you from 1000 feet away when you know your max range is only 500?

[Ken Cheng]

Sneak into their tents at night and assassinate their most capable leaders.

Poison their food and water supply.

Slaughter their horses (Mongolians are dependent on their cavalry).

Sabotage their weaponry.

When the Mongols are reeling from these kinds of attacks, send a combination wulin/Sung army to further harass/damage them.

[9dragonkings]

Those are very good methods.

Especially poisoning food and water supply, but I suppose some martial art sects won't agree with their righteous values. The greats morality might have inhibited them from using such effective methods.

I say burn their resources (food supply)
Hinder supply route, which is guarded by a 100 or so soldiers are so nothing a great or two can't handle.
Relentless surprise harassment to keep the soldiers from getting a good rest.

Soldiers without good rest and food would eventually wear themselves out. =)

[tape]

Those are very good methods.

Especially poisoning food and water supply, but I suppose some martial art sects won't agree with their righteous values. The greats morality might have inhibited them from using such effective methods.

Nah, even the most upright Guo Jing agreed that everything is fair game in war (especially when you're defending your homeland).