Dugu Qiubai's disciple/successor in ROCH?

[IcySnow]

If my memory is correct, then the XAJH era is a few centuries after the ROCH one and somehow a successor of DGQB, Feng Qingyang, is still around. Therefore it means during ROCH time, one of Dugu's diciples/successors must still be alive somewhere. Why didn't he show up at least once? Considering Dugu's power, his successor could easily become one of the Greats.

The Divine Condor was a close friend of Dugu during his later years but when Yeung Gor initially met him/it, no such Dugu-related person was found. Why didn't the condor have Yeung Gor and that person meet? Or did the condor not know any of Dugu's disciples?

An unrelated question, but I think it doesn't hurt putting it here: Does Gwok Jing have any special hero title? Like Yeung Gor's "Divine Condor Hero"?

[PJ]

Therefore it means during ROCH time, one of Dugu's diciples/successors must still be alive somewhere.

Not necessarily. We have no information on how Feng learned Dugu Qiubai's art, but it's reasonable that he stumbled upon Dugu's legacy a la Yang Guo.

[IcySnow]

Not necessarily. We have no information on how Feng learned Dugu Qiubai's art, but it's reasonable that he stumbled upon Dugu's legacy a la Yang Guo.

Considering that YG doesn't know anything about Dugu's swordplay, I don't think YG would make up such a name DG9J. By the way, even if Feng Qingyang learned the swordplay not from another higher-level master but from let's say a manual (which is very unlikely), then the Divine Condor should still have known where the manual had been kept. Why didn't it show YG?

[PJ]

Considering that YG doesn't know anything about Dugu's swordplay, I don't think YG would make up such a name DG9J. By the way, even if Feng Qingyang learned the swordplay not from another higher-level master but from let's say a manual (which is very unlikely), then the Divine Condor should still have known where the manual had been kept. Why didn't it show YG?

You're trying to make a perfect connection between what we know about Dugu in ROCH and what we know about him in SPW. But it doesn't work that way, because JY didn't write it that way. There's no direct connection between DG9J and the stages of MA described in ROCH (Purple Sword, HIS, Wooden Sword, etc).

And I wasn't implying YG created DG9J. I'm suggesting it was created by Dugu, and Feng merely ran into it like YG ran into HIS.

[Ken Cheng]

Here's a radical theory: maybe Dook Goo Kau Bai wasn't an individual, but a *franchise*. Maybe there was an entire *group* of superior swordsmen, each of whom had a different sword philosophy/technique, who collectively went by the name "Dook Goo Kau Bai."

That might account for the discrepancies.

[tape]

DG9J could be the two swords earlier than HIS, or it could even be a different interpretation of Wooden Sword. The Condor could have left YG after XLN reunited with them because the Ancient Tomb lifestyle wasn't for a big bird like him.

Then he meets a young, energetic Feng Qingyang who is more fit to learn fast and swift sword techniques rather than a crippled Yang Guo who looked better suited for the slow Heavy Iron Sword, so he teaches Feng the essence of DG9J, which as an outstanding disciple, is able to understand the Condor's movements and create a general index throughout his life. He realizes it's not his ingenuity but Dugu's brilliance that taught him these principles, so he does not take credit for coming up with the words.

The Condor either lives for hundreds of years, or we replace Feng Qingyang with random guy who we don't know the name of in the above hypothetical to properly fit the timeline and add in some masters passing onto their disciples. The little they know about Dugu is still just the words written on the sword tomb that might have gotten distorted throughout the years.

Done!

[Dirt]

Did XAJH have any historical figures? I think XAJH was a parallel universe. Or, rather, a more "fictional" universe than his other books. To my knowledge, XAJH had no historical characters. The setting was the more traditional, fictional Jiang Hu world that many of the other Wuxia writers were writing in. I don't think Yang Guo existed at all in the XAJH universe.

[tape]

Zhang Sanfeng and Taiji existed, Dugu of course, and XXDF was related to the Essence Absorbing was mentioned to be derived from Bei Ming or Hua Gong. Those are all that I can name off the top of my head.

But really, you can say the same about most of the other novels not named LOCH/ROCH/HSDS/DGSD. None of them had much connection except a few vague references, though I guess you can roughly lump all the Qing/Late Ming era stories in one definite universe, LOCH/ROCH/HSDS/DGSD in another definite universe, and have Ode to Gallantry/XAJH/Yue Maiden as stand alones.

[Ken Cheng]

Did XAJH have any historical figures? I think XAJH was a parallel universe. Or, rather, a more "fictional" universe than his other books. To my knowledge, XAJH had no historical characters. The setting was the more traditional, fictional Jiang Hu world that many of the other Wuxia writers were writing in. I don't think Yang Guo existed at all in the XAJH universe.

This too is also possible. Dook Goo Kau Bai aside, SPW featured no reference whatsoever to CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY characters or events. Dook Goo Kau Bai's martial arts seemed to behave differently in SPW compared to ROCH, and Shaolin's Yik Gun Ging behaved differently in SPW from how it did in DGSD.

[PJ]

Actually, I think of SPW as in the same universe as DGSD, while the Trilogy is in a different universe.

Although DGSD and Trilogy should have a lot in common being closer in time, they don't, due to DGSD being written much later than LOCH and ROCH.

The link between XXDF and BMSG/HGDF is strong, while there's little in common between ROCH DGQB and SPW DGQB. One can even argue they're two different people.

[tape]

What is the difference between SPW DGQB and ROCH DGQB except for HIS vs DG9J?

We know he abandoned one of his swords because he accidentally injured a (righteous) man. This sounds plausibly like DG9J techniques that Linghu Chong uses throughout the novel where he uses a common ruin technique that favors him, banking on the opponent withdrawing their strike. Dugu could have banked on this righteous man withdrawing his strike, and wound up killing or seriously injuring him when he didn't.

It's not implausible at all that JY gave Dugu a couple swords so he could write some more sword techniques based off him in the future when he thought of them. DG9J was probably conceived by JY after ROCH was written, but he left himself some room to write about it by including the sword tomb.

[tape]

This too is also possible. Dook Goo Kau Bai aside, SPW featured no reference whatsoever to CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY characters or events. Dook Goo Kau Bai's martial arts seemed to behave differently in SPW compared to ROCH, and Shaolin's Yik Gun Ging behaved differently in SPW from how it did in DGSD.

They mention Zhang Sanfeng and his Taiji sword.

I don't see the functional difference in the two YJJs. In SPW, the only thing we know about it is that it was immune to Essence Absorbing Stance of RWX, and it could cure the inner strength problems of LHC. It just sounds like any other super high level inner strength technique. It's also mentioned that LHC was allowed to learn it (possibly easier to learn it also?) because he needed to learn it to save his life not some wild ambition to be a martial arts master. Sounds a bit similar to the predicament YTZ was in.

[Ken Cheng]

The link between XXDF and BMSG/HGDF is strong, while there's little in common between ROCH DGQB and SPW DGQB. One can even argue they're two different people.

Although it's nothing more than our speculation, I do like the idea of Dook Goo Kau Bai being a group of related characters than being one character. It makes the different things said about him much easier to reconcile.

[Ken Cheng]

Actually, I think of SPW as in the same universe as DGSD, while the Trilogy is in a different universe.

Someone (was it you, PJ?) once drew up a diagram that showed how DGSD fed into the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY and SPW on two separate forks. In other words, on one fork, DGSD led into LOCH and continued through ROCH and HSDS, but the timeline did not proceed beyond HSDS into SPW. On the other fork, the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY was completely bypassed and DGSD fed directly into SPW.

Comic book universe timelines do this quite often; naturally, I doubt Jin Yong had such concepts in mind while writing his stories.

[Ian Liew]

There's also no reason why Dugu Qiubai would keep everything he had left behind in the same cave with his condor. Maybe the manual was inscribed on some cliff elsewhere, before he met brother condor? Maybe he didn't even know that brother condor was intelligent, and was watching him practice, saw where he kept his swords, and would bring a successor to his cave after his death? He wouldn't have given the manual to brother condor and taught him the essence of his swordplay then. Kind of like how Sha Gu learnt from her father, just by watching without him realising that she was learning.

Or maybe Dugu did have a successor, but one who couldn't put into practice the out-of-this-world theories due to lack of skill, and just passed it on until it reached the hands of Feng Qingyang. I am curious, though, whether Feng Qingyang passed off DG9J as part of Huashan swordplay during his earlier days. Ren Woxing seemed to know that Feng Qingyang of Huashan hd some exquisite swordplay, but it doesn't really say if people thought he was using Huashan skills, or some outsider skill.

[tape]

I see it as same way that you do with no discrepancy -- there are a ton of ways DG9J could have been plausibly passed down by really mundane and ordinary methods such as some of the ones you listed.

Besides which, the sword tomb gives quite a bit of leeway on how some events could have transpired while still fitting neatly into what was described. I mentioned him wounding a righteous man accidentally which sounds eerily like DG9J techniques that we see LHC use where he employs common ruin techniques. He also didn't use HIS until later in his life, and also abandoned HIS as he mastered the sword further. That means DG9J could be from either of those two periods before and after HIS which we already knew were somewhat different from the HIS style even in ROCH.

As for him pretending it was Huashan swordplay, we at least know that Fang Sheng recognized DG9J by name when LHC used it and connected it with FQY, and Xiang Wentian was able to deduce that he learned swordplay from Feng as well without LHC mentioning his background. So at the least Feng didn't keep it a secret that he used techniques outside of Huashan techniques.

[Banh Mi]

YJJ had near mythical properties in SPW if I recall correctly. It allowed the user to control their tendons and every aspect of their internal energy. It was like the nanotechnology of chi.

[PJ]

What is the difference between SPW DGQB and ROCH DGQB except for HIS vs DG9J?

More like all of his MA mentioned in ROCH vs DG9J.

We know he abandoned one of his swords because he accidentally injured a (righteous) man. This sounds plausibly like DG9J techniques that Linghu Chong uses throughout the novel where he uses a common ruin technique that favors him, banking on the opponent withdrawing their strike. Dugu could have banked on this righteous man withdrawing his strike, and wound up killing or seriously injuring him when he didn't.

I don't think it sounds particularly like Dugu 9 Swords.

It's not implausible at all that JY gave Dugu a couple swords so he could write some more sword techniques based off him in the future when he thought of them. DG9J was probably conceived by JY after ROCH was written, but he left himself some room to write about it by including the sword tomb.

I think it's more like JY evolved his idea about Dugu Qiubai and the epitome of sword art between ROCH and SPW, and reflected the new idea in SPW, but in doing so created inconsistencies with earlier idea in ROCH.

[tape]

More like all of his MA mentioned in ROCH vs DG9J.



I don't think it sounds particularly like Dugu 9 Swords.



I think it's more like JY evolved his idea about Dugu Qiubai and the epitome of sword art between ROCH and SPW, and reflected the new idea in SPW, but in doing so created inconsistencies with earlier idea in ROCH.

Which MA are you speaking of besides HIS? His first sword was an extremely sharp one, and his second sword was a flexible one. Surely these two swords weren't used in the same manner as the HIS, what makes it so implausible that he would use them in a manner like Dugu 9 Jian?

DG9J is complex with the need to memorize the huge index before being able to fight formlessly. HIS is simpler and is a logical next step towards "simplicity brings superiority". Dugu 9 Jian being a predecessor to HIS is not very outlandish. It seems likely that Dugu rethought his sword theories after accidentally wounding this man, and abandoned whatever his old style was. [my theory being DG9J in his earlier stages ---> wounding man ---> ponders new approach to martial arts --> HIS is developed]

Accidentally wounding someone isn't a characteristic of DG9J, but it's definitely something I can see happening with how we saw LHC use DG9J time and time again in SPW.

[Ren Wo Xing]

In an interview, Jinyong indicated that LHC had a higher level of swordsmanship/understanding of the sword than Yang Guo, due to Yang Guo not actually being taught properly.