Wong Seung's invasion of Gwong Ming Peak: outside of Sung jurisdiction?

[Ken Cheng]

In the background story of the origin of the 9 Yum Jen Ging told in LOCH, Wong Seung led an army on the orders of the Northern Sung king to eliminate the Ming Cult at Gwong Ming Peak. The Sung king had pegged the Ming Cult as a "demonic sect" that would have a bad influence on the people of the Sung Kingdom and thus, wanted the cult eliminated.

Gwong Ming Peak, as we saw in HSDS, was located in the Western Regions...possibly somewhere out beyond the Kunlun Mountain Range. I don't think the jurisdiction of the Northern (or Southern) Sung Dynasty reached that far west. The area where Gwong Ming Peak was located would have been in Hsi Hsia or Tubo Kingdom territory, where the Sung have no jurisdiction.

Could the Sung king have sent Wong Seung and the Sung army to attack Gwong Ming Peak without causing an international incident?

[pannonian]

From LOCH Chapter 16 – The Nine Yin Manual:

"That Huang Shang had mastered the martial art, yet he still held an
office in the government," Zhou Botong continued. "There came a time
when suddenly there arose a religious movement in the kingdom; they
called themselves 'ming jiao' [Ming Cult] something. It was said that
this movement was originated from central Asia; a place called Persia.
The follower of this Ming Cult were: first – did not worship 'tai shang
lao jun' [translator note: I think he was a Taoist Deity]; second – did
not worship ancestor's spirit; third – did not worship Buddha; they only
worship old foreign devil. They did not eat meat nor drink wine; they
were vegetarians. The Emperor Hui Zong only believed in Taoism; so as
soon as he found out he issued an imperial decree assigning Huang Shang
to eradicate this devil cult. Unexpectedly there were many martial art
masters among the members of the cult. They were fearless of death and
fought Huang Shang and his troops, rendered them useless. After several
battles Huang Shang and his troops suffered big loss. Huang Shang was
indignant. He went out and challenged the Devil Cult's martial art
masters on one-to-one combat. He personally killed several 'fa wang'
[imperial priest – just like Jin Lun Fa Wang of RoCH and 'kings' of Ming
Cult in HSDS] and some envoys. Who would have known that the people he
killed were disciples of well-known Wulin characters, some were their
martial uncles, aunts, brothers, sisters; or their immediate families.
Of course these people were enraged and they came together to face him.
They scolded him as not handling the affairs according to the Wulin
custom. To which Huang Shang replied, 'I am a government officer, and am
not part of the Wulin world; what do I know about your Wulin custom?'
Those whom family or relative was killed argued, 'If you are not part of
the Wulin world, then how did you know martial art? Are you saying that
your master only taught you martial art, but did not tell you anything
about the Wulin custom?' Huang Shang replied, 'I don't have any master.'
Of course they did not believe him; so they were involved in heated
argument. What do you think happened?"

"They began to fight each other," Guo Jing said.

"Without question, wasn't it?" Zhou Botong said. "Huang Shang's martial
art was strange; none of his enemies had seen it. Because of this he
could kill some of them quite easily. However, his enemies were
numerous; he was also injured from the fight, so in desperation he ran
away. Those enemies of him then wiped his parents, wife and children
clean."

Listening to this part Guo Jing heaved a sigh. He thought that people
who practiced martial art would unavoidably kill others. This Huang
Shang was no different; if he did not practice martial art, he would not
experience such tragedy.

"That Huang Shang fellow had ran away to a deserted place and hid
himself there," Zhou Botong continued. "There he tried to remember his
enemies' martial art one by one. He painstakingly pondered on how to
defeat each and every one of them. He thought that as soon as he
succeeded in developing the martial art, he would go back and seek his
revenge. A long time passed; finally he was able to master the new
martial art. He was very happy; expecting that very soon he would be
able to avenge his family. Thereupon he left the mountain to seek his
enemies. But unexpectedly the people he was looking for had disappeared.
Can you guess what happened to them?"

[Son of Light]

It's fiction, JY most likely didn't researching much into geology.
Case and point, Sung army have firearms, they would just bombed the Gwong Ming Peak if they wanted.

[Ian Liew]

It's fiction, JY most likely didn't researching much into geology.
Case and point, Sung army have firearms, they would just bombed the Gwong Ming Peak if they wanted.

"Geography", not "geology". It's unlike Jin Yong, though, who while he might take some liberties with dates here and there, usually incorporates real-life facts into his stories quite diligently.

Perhaps Guangmingding moved location after the carnage with Huang Shang, and re-established itself in a different location in HSDS? Guangmingding sounds more like a name adopted by the Ming Cult, rather than a real geographical name of a mountain peak, after all.

[Ken Cheng]

"Geography", not "geology". It's unlike Jin Yong, though, who while he might take some liberties with dates here and there, usually incorporates real-life facts into his stories quite diligently.

Perhaps Guangmingding moved location after the carnage with Huang Shang, and re-established itself in a different location in HSDS? Guangmingding sounds more like a name adopted by the Ming Cult, rather than a real geographical name of a mountain peak, after all.

That's possible. Gwong Ming Peak was located so far west of the Central Plains in HSDS that I don't think *any* Chinese government ever had any jurisdiction there. We're talking about places that today, would probably be in Afghanistan.

[pannonian]

That's possible. Gwong Ming Peak was located so far west of the Central Plains in HSDS that I don't think *any* Chinese government ever had any jurisdiction there. We're talking about places that today, would probably be in Afghanistan.

Brightness Peak was part of the Kunlun chain, which was considerably beyond the reach of Song. When the orthodox sects attacked Brightness Peak, they first had to cross a desert, which would be the Taklamakan Desert, nowadays part of Xinjiang.

[Ken Cheng]

Brightness Peak was part of the Kunlun chain, which was considerably beyond the reach of Song. When the orthodox sects attacked Brightness Peak, they first had to cross a desert, which would be the Taklamakan Desert, nowadays part of Xinjiang.

Who controlled that territory during the time of Wong Seung? Was it the Hsi-Hsia Kingdom? The Tubo Kingdom? The Khwarezm Empire?

[pannonian]

Who controlled that territory during the time of Wong Seung? Was it the Hsi-Hsia Kingdom? The Tubo Kingdom? The Khwarezm Empire?

The Kara-Khitan empire (Western Liao) was founded around that time by Yelu Dashi, who led some Khitans there to conquer the existing Kara-Khanids after sustained pressure on the ailing Liao from the Jurchen. This would be a continuation of the events seen in DGSD, when Xiao Feng (for a while) made a peace between the Liao and the Jurchen.

[odbayarb2000]

It seems Taklaman Desert was no man's land during Huang Shang's time. To the south of it, Tibetan kingdoms ruled the land, to the left Western Xia dominated the region, but to the north and west Kara Kitai was in control. I believe Brightness Peak was in the dominion of Kara Kitai.

[Ken Cheng]

It seems Taklaman Desert was no man's land during Huang Shang's time. To the south of it, Tibetan kingdoms ruled the land, to the left Western Xia dominated the region, but to the north and west Kara Kitai was in control. I believe Brightness Peak was in the dominion of Kara Kitai.

Considering that the Ming Cult was despised by so many, locating its headquarters in a no man's land would make good sense.

[Doc Kwok]

Considering that the Ming Cult was despised by so many, locating its headquarters in a no man's land would make good sense.

There is no reason to believe that the Ming cult was widely despised during Huang Shang's time - indeed, the fact that disciples of established Wulin sects joined seems to indicate the opposite. The emperor Huizhong wanted to destroy it merely because it was a religion that wasn't Taoism (historically, Huizhong made an attempt to suppress Buddhism in China too).

[Ken Cheng]

There is no reason to believe that the Ming cult was widely despised during Huang Shang's time - indeed, the fact that disciples of established Wulin sects joined seems to indicate the opposite. The emperor Huizhong wanted to destroy it merely because it was a religion that wasn't Taoism (historically, Huizhong made an attempt to suppress Buddhism in China too).

That's quite an effort towards religious persecution considering that the Ming Cult was located so far from the Central Plains. Going back to the original question, however, could the Sung king actually enforce his directive out there where the Ming Cult was based? He really didn't have any authority out there, and the surrounding countries would not have been happy about Sung troops going into their territory to cause trouble. It would have been the 12th Century equivalent of Bush sending troops into Iraq (except even worse).

I guess this was the Sung king's "crusade," eh?

[Doc Kwok]

That's quite an effort towards religious persecution considering that the Ming Cult was located so far from the Central Plains. Going back to the original question, however, could the Sung king actually enforce his directive out there where the Ming Cult was based? He really didn't have any authority out there, and the surrounding countries would not have been happy about Sung troops going into their territory to cause trouble. It would have been the 12th Century equivalent of Bush sending troops into Iraq (except even worse).

I guess this was the Sung king's "crusade," eh?

At the beginning of LOCH, a storyteller said this about the Huizong emperor:

"Thinking back to those years when the Huizong emperor only thought about immortality, wanting to be a god, using corrupt officials, like Cai Jing, Wang Fu, who were shameless people that only helped the emperor to acquire things; like Tong Guan, Liang Shicheng, who were eunuchs that only knew how to boot-lick; like Gao Qiu, Li Bangyan, who were playboys who accompanied the emperor to brothels. The emperor didn't care about official business, if not spending all day searching for gods to learn the Dao, then sending people everywhere to search for weird plants or rocks. When the Jin army appeared before his eyes, he had no idea what to do, retracting his head, he transferred the responsibility of emperor to his son, Qinzong. At that time, the virtuous official Li Gang was defending the capital Bianliang and the generals commanded their soldiers diligently, the Jin army couldn't enter, and could only retreat. But who knew that Qinzong would listen to the advice of corrupt officials, and dismissed Li Gang, and didn't make use of renowned, able generals, but placed his trust in a trickster Guo Jing (no, not the Guo Jing ), who claimed to be able to summon heavenly gods and generals, and control the wind and rain, and ordered him to summon heavenly generals to defend the city. Since the heavenly generals weren't willing to come, how could the capital not fall? At last, Huizong and Qinzong were spirited away by the Jin army. These two incompetent emperors brought this on themselves, and hardly matter, but they've also harmed our thousands and millions (10,000s) of Chinese civilians."

Although the speaker is just a storyteller (and hence unreliable/prone to exaggeration), it shows that Huizong was regarded as a thoroughly incompetent emperor who ignored matters of state to indulge in his own whimsies. Sending an army into foreign territory and completely disregarding diplomacy to exterminate 'heretics' would not be out of character with this portrayal.

[Ian Liew]

Despite the political correctness of Yue Fei trying to rescue Hui Zong and Qin Zong, and the general detestment of Gao Zong by so many Han Chinese during the LOCH era, I always genuinely felt that Gao Zong was arguably a far more competent Emperor than Hui Zong and Qin Zong. The Southern Song (which lasted over 150 years and was almost as long as the Northern Song) might have survived mainly by forsaking its identity and pride to the Jin invaders (not sure if it was as bad as depicted in LOCH), and relied on the Jin not having the military strength to stretch themselves beyond Kaifeng, but the Southern Song was a productive era with a strong economy, and Gao Zong set some solid foundations for the future generations of Song emperors (before corruption, inevitably and eventually, set in). I really do not see Hui Zong and Qin Zong doing any of that. They were merely heirs to the throne because of lineage.

At the beginning of LOCH, a storyteller said this about the Huizong emperor:

"Thinking back to those years when the Huizong emperor only thought about immortality, wanting to be a god, using corrupt officials, like Cai Jing, Wang Fu, who were shameless people that only helped the emperor to acquire things; like Tong Guan, Liang Shicheng, who were eunuchs that only knew how to boot-lick; like Gao Qiu, Li Bangyan, who were playboys who accompanied the emperor to brothels. The emperor didn't care about official business, if not spending all day searching for gods to learn the Dao, then sending people everywhere to search for weird plants or rocks. When the Jin army appeared before his eyes, he had no idea what to do, retracting his head, he transferred the responsibility of emperor to his son, Qinzong. At that time, the virtuous official Li Gang was defending the capital Bianliang and the generals commanded their soldiers diligently, the Jin army couldn't enter, and could only retreat. But who knew that Qinzong would listen to the advice of corrupt officials, and dismissed Li Gang, and didn't make use of renowned, able generals, but placed his trust in a trickster Guo Jing (no, not the Guo Jing ), who claimed to be able to summon heavenly gods and generals, and control the wind and rain, and ordered him to summon heavenly generals to defend the city. Since the heavenly generals weren't willing to come, how could the capital not fall? At last, Huizong and Qinzong were spirited away by the Jin army. These two incompetent emperors brought this on themselves, and hardly matter, but they've also harmed our thousands and millions (10,000s) of Chinese civilians."

Although the speaker is just a storyteller (and hence unreliable/prone to exaggeration), it shows that Huizong was regarded as a thoroughly incompetent emperor who ignored matters of state to indulge in his own whimsies. Sending an army into foreign territory and completely disregarding diplomacy to exterminate 'heretics' would not be out of character with this portrayal.

[Ken Cheng]

Wong Seung and the Sung army's attack against the Ming Cult seems to mirror the Six Orthodox Sects' joint assault on Gwong Ming Peak during HSDS.

1. In both scenarios, a large fighting force from the Central Plains journeyed out to the Western Regions on a crusade to eradicate the Ming Cult.

2. In both scenarios, what started off as a war between two large forces ended up being determined by one-on-one fights between martial arts experts.

3. In both scenarios, the final outcome was decided by one supreme martial arts master (e.g. Wong Seung; Cheung Mo Gei).

[tape]

Wong Seung and the Sung army's attack against the Ming Cult seems to mirror the Six Orthodox Sects' joint assault on Gwong Ming Peak during HSDS.

1. In both scenarios, a large fighting force from the Central Plains journeyed out to the Western Regions on a crusade to eradicate the Ming Cult.

2. In both scenarios, what started off as a war between two large forces ended up being determined by one-on-one fights between martial arts experts.

3. In both scenarios, the final outcome was decided by one supreme martial arts master (e.g. Wong Seung; Cheung Mo Gei).

I wonder if Yang Xiao was thinking similar thoughts. He compiled a history of the Ming Sect, and that battle should have been included in it. Perhaps he knew that one man couldn't overcome hundreds of experts no matter how strong, and thought Wuji's efforts were eventually going to be wasted.

[xlandhenry]

Ming Cult(aka Manicheism) is a real cult in Chinese history and its origins dates back to Tang Dynasty. Its existence had almost always been despised by the government.

In HSDS, it's stated that during Northern Song Dynasty, Ming Cult rose up as a rebellion army led by Fang La, who's then leader of the cult. The army was based in Jiang Su and Zhe Jiang province. The rebellion was later crushed down by the Song authority. So basically from this you can imagine that either Ming Cult had several bases or it had relocated its headquarter to the one at Brightness Peak. For a secret cult, that's too common.