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Thread: For the nth time, How would you rank the Greats?

  1. #1
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Default For the nth time, How would you rank the Greats?

    Although most of the Greats actually achieved around the same level of martial arts, if you had to, How would you rank the Greats' martial arts at their peak? For the sake of consistency, martial arts in this context is defined as "the combination of theoretical knowledge, experience, and actual combat performances." Also, for the people who specialize in weaponery, we assume that they do not have their weapon all the time, although at the Greats level weapon does not really mean much, or else they wouldn't be the Greats.

    The characters who were mentioned but never appeared are denoted in (parentheses).

    1. (Demonic Swordsman Dugu Qiubai)
    2. (Huang Shang, creator of "9 Yin")
    3. (Central Divinity Wang Chong Yang)

    The 3 above characters were legendary masters who were either revered by later generations, or produced unparalled martial arts during their time. How they would compare with ROCH Greats is debatable, but due to their achievements and reputation, my impression is that they should not be inferior to any Great, only better.

    4. Guo Jing
    his martial arts saw a steady increase from his teenage years, to his encounter with Ouyang Feng, to his encounter with Golden Wheel Monk + 3 Mongolian warriors. Each time he demonstrated more refined mastery AND effective battle performance compared to the previous one. If this growth pattern continues, he should outmatch any of the Greats by end of ROCH.

    5. Yang Guo
    could not defeat Huang Yaoshi or Zhou Botong, but it's not like he was trying to. He was engaging in friendly competitions with them, and these are people that he respected. On the other hand, it was quite clear that the empty-handed Yang Guo is still better than weapon-wielding, post-10th level "Dragon Elephant Sutra" Golden Wheel Monk. And when he could utilize Sad Palms to the fullest extent, he would win. Despite being better than GWM, Yang Guo has the disadvantage of being one-armed, and the technique that gave him the most trouble was the Left/Right technique. Since Guo Jing's power is not inferior to Yang Guo AND Guo Jing knows this L/R technique, Yang Guo would have a major disadvantage.

    6. Zhou Botong
    was slightly better than the rest of the Greats all along.

    7. Eastern Heretic Huang Yaoshi
    8. Southern Emperor Yideng

    It was mentioned that Northern Beggar and Western Venom improved greatly between LOCH and ROCH. I see no reason that Southern Emperor and Eastern Heretic would not also improve greatly, and they underwent 16 more years of improvement compared to their 2 deceased peers. Although their stamina will not match their 2 peers', their refinement could have surpassed the other 2 by a long shot. I rate Huang Yaoshi slightly higher because he became a Great on his own, while Yideng became a Great with the help of his family kung fu.

    9. (Lin Chaoying)
    At the beginning of ROCH, Qiu Chuji told Guo Jing that Lin Chaoying would be one level superior to the Greats in terms of martial arts. We don't know if Qiu was referring to the Greats at Lin's time or at present time, but we do know that Lin Chaoying was somewhat inferior to Wang Chongyang BEFORE 1) Chongyang developed Quanzhen Sect, 2) Chongyang absorbed the essence of 9 Yin. Lin also developed the Jade Maiden style, so she should have continued to improve over the Greats. It's quite debatable where she lands in this ranking; I simply took the middle path of Qiu Chuji's words: if Lin was better than the Greats up to ROCH, then she should be superior to all of them at the end. But if she was only better than them during her time, then they had 30+ years to improve, and they should have surpassed her. At the very least, I imagine that she would overcome Golden Wheel Monk (see below for his weakness).

    10. Hong Qigong
    11. Ouyang Feng

    I rate Hong Qigong 0.1% higher because his kung fu base was more orthodox, which tends to become more refined over a long period. Although he would not carry Dog Beating Stick all the time, he can probably substitute any tree branch to defeat Ouyang Feng (Yang Guo figured that Ouyang Feng would have lost to Dog Beating Stick in real time). But in a life-death situation, Ouyang Feng might fight better.

    12. Golden Wheel Monk
    should be slightly more powerful than the Greats, due to his superior stamina. BUT, and this is a big BUT, since he showed that he is a mediocre fighter with cowardly attitute (getting scared frequently), I moved him below the Greats. I mean, can we possibly imagine Dragon Girl forcing a Great to complete defense, and even injuring him?! Granted, that was before Golden Wheel Monk reached 10th level of the Sutra, but the (2) Greats also improved in the mean time. Judging by his last battle with Yang Guo, his cowardice didn't get better. As soon as the Greats figure out his weakness, they can try to confuse him with dazzling technique. He would have no chance against Ouyang Feng for one, Lin Chaoying for two.

    13. Qiu Qianren

    Feel free to share your opinion. Note: I did not include any HSDS Greats, but you are welcome to incorporate them into your ranking if you would like.
    Last edited by PJ; 03-31-06 at 03:44 AM.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  2. #2
    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Its been a long time since we had one of those 50 page Guo Jing vs YG threads.

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    Senior Member Tazzy1972's Avatar
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    soon u will see it
    TaZzY InC

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    Senior Member Extremer88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tazzy1972
    soon u will see it
    LOL. And I will gladly join in the debate.
    ..ext88

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    Senior Member IcyFox's Avatar
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    My rough estimates (without using the equation):

    1. Yang Guo
    2. Wang Chong Yang / Zhang Wuji / Guo Jing
    3. Zhou Botong / Lin Chao Ying / GWM
    4. Yideng / H7G / OYF
    5. HYS / QQR


    Mr. Dugu and Mr. Huang Shang are not Greats so they're not on this list.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Extremer88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IcyFox
    My rough estimates (without using the equation):

    1. Yang Guo
    2. Wang Chong Yang / Zhang Wuji / Guo Jing
    3. Zhou Botong / Lin Chao Ying / GWM
    4. Yideng / H7G / OYF
    5. HYS / QQR


    Mr. Dugu and Mr. Huang Shang are not Greats so they're not on this list.
    4 level/rank of difference between YG and HYS / QQR, that's too much gap between them.
    ..ext88

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    Senior Member IcyFox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Extremer88
    4 level/rank of difference between YG and HYS / QQR, that's too much gap between them.
    OK OK, let me put it this way:

    1.0 - Yang Guo
    1.1 - Wang Chong Yang / Zhang Wuji / Guo Jing
    1.2 - Zhou Botong / Lin Chao Ying / GWM
    1.3 - Yideng / H7G / OYF
    1.4 - HYS / QQR


    So all of them are not more than 1 rank apart now.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Extremer88's Avatar
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    Okay, I understand now.
    ..ext88

  9. #9
    Senior Member MrIllusion's Avatar
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    I wager that those that died in the novels would be lower on the list, as the rest would have time to catch up. So...

    Group 1
    1) Zhou Botong
    2) Guo Jing, or YG when YG is depressed
    3) Yang Guo, or GJ when YG is depressed
    4) Huang Yaoshi
    5) Yi Deng
    6) Wang Chongyang
    7) Ouyang Feng
    8) Hong Qi
    9) Lin Chaoying
    10) Jinlun Fawang
    11) Qiu Qianren
    The Truth is out there
    I say we leave it there...

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    Mines doesn't include DSGS but has HSDS in it.
    in addition, the 4 creators ( LCY,WCY, HS, and Dugu are not in here) (and note, these are fighting at there max potentials (ZWJ isn't his usual below his level and YG is in depression mode where his Melancholic Sad Palm works at its best.) If YG isn't depressed, then he drops to 8. Because he took on ZBT and HYS with in depression mode. He beated JLFW in depressed mode. Before being depressed, he was losing to JLFW.

    1. GJ- Made an improved XL18Z. L/R technique. Dipper formation against mutiple opponents.
    2. Z3F-created the entire Wudang. Tai chi. Great fighting experience.
    3. ZWJ- at his best, he trully is unstoppable. Tai chi gives him better endurance than the other fighters (Z3F is a bit old). QKDLY.
    4. YG- Created Melancholic Sad Palm. Very impressive. Out of the 3 main characters, only his was pure Hardness. Best Lightness kung fu. He has disadvantage because of one arm.
    5. YD- I rated him higher than other old 3 greats because he knew Xian Tian Gong + 1 Yang Zhi.
    6. ZBT- Created Vacant Fist. L/R technique. Was able to master QZ kung fu to full potential.
    7. HYS- Created Peach Blossom kung fu. Though he is well balanced in all types, there isn't one area where is the best. For exp: H7G's XL18Z is better than Falling Leaves Sword Palm.
    8. JLFW- He possibly has better internal than all the greats; however, his external is no doubt inferior to the greats.
    9. H7G- He would be better than JLFW if he didn't die so early and wasn't able to pratice anymore.
    10. OYF- He was be a knotch below H7G because he wouldn't be able to break the Dog Beating stances.
    Last edited by Whsie; 03-31-06 at 04:12 AM.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Han Solo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    3. (Central Divinity Wang Chong Yang)[/B]
    The 3 above characters were legendary masters who were either revered by later generations, or produced unparalled martial arts during their time. How they would compare with ROCH Greats is debatable, but due to their achievements and reputation, my impression is that they should not be inferior to any Great, only better.


    9. (Lin Chaoying)
    At the beginning of ROCH, Qiu Chuji told Guo Jing that Lin Chaoying would be one level superior to the Greats in terms of martial arts. We don't know if Qiu was referring to the Greats at Lin's time or at present time, but we do know that Lin Chaoying was somewhat inferior to Wang Chongyang BEFORE 1) Chongyang developed Quanzhen Sect, 2) Chongyang absorbed the essence of 9 Yin. Lin also developed the Jade Maiden style, so she should have continued to improve over the Greats. It's quite debatable where she lands in this ranking; I simply took the middle path of Qiu Chuji's words: if Lin was better than the Greats up to ROCH, then she should be superior to all of them at the end. But if she was only better than them during her time, then they had 30+ years to improve, and they should have surpassed her. At the very least, I imagine that she would overcome Golden Wheel Monk (see below for his weakness).

    Feel free to share your opinion. Note: I did not include any HSDS Greats, but you are welcome to incorporate them into your ranking if you would like.
    1) I doubt that WCY is superior to the four greats, as well as GJ and YG.

    It would be hard to find a supporting statement that was not uttered by WCY's disciples or apprentice brother.


    2) LCY's skills was said to be surpassed by XLN! Discuss.

    Han Solo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Han Solo
    1) I doubt that WCY is superior to the four greats, as well as GJ and YG.

    It would be hard to find a supporting statement that was not uttered by WCY's disciples or apprentice brother.


    2) LCY's skills was said to be surpassed by XLN! Discuss.

    Han Solo
    1)Well, I doubt WCY's skills were better than HYS or YD after the 16 years.
    2)Well, I have a 100% confidence that LCY's INTERNAL is far superior. However externally, I don't think LCY has gotten to the level where XLN is. Unless LCY could use R/L technique as well (she can't execute Jade Maiden's best by herself), XLN would be better.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC
    Its been a long time since we had one of those 50 page Guo Jing vs YG threads.
    The old one is still out there somewhere...

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    Senior Member IcyFox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whsie
    ...
    1. GJ- Made an improved XL18Z. L/R technique. Dipper formation against mutiple opponents.
    2. Z3F-created the entire Wudang. Tai chi. Great fighting experience.
    ...

    How does that make GJ superior to Z3F?

  15. #15
    Senior Member Extremer88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Han Solo
    2) LCY's skills was said to be surpassed by XLN! Discuss.
    I believe LCY was around the same level of the greats (except WCY) during the time of the first Huashan Tournament. WCY was better than the other 4 greats at that time.

    I can't picture XLN being better than HYS, OYF, YD and HQG.
    ..ext88

  16. #16
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Han Solo
    1) I doubt that WCY is superior to the four greats, as well as GJ and YG.

    It would be hard to find a supporting statement that was not uttered by WCY's disciples or apprentice brother.
    There's no real evidence against WCY being better than the Greats either, is there?


    2) LCY's skills was said to be surpassed by XLN! Discuss.

    Han Solo
    Where in the novel is this stated?

    In any case, it was explicitly stated that Lin Chaoying was superior to the Greats.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    1) Wang Chongyang/Dugu Qiubai (The Divine and The Demonic)
    2) Guo Jing/Yang Guo (The Hero and The Rebel)
    3) Zhou Botong (The Cherub)
    4) Huang Yaoshi, Yi Deng, Ouyang Feng, Hong Qigong (East, South, West, North)
    Last edited by Dirt; 03-31-06 at 02:11 PM.

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    Senior Member Athena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Han Solo
    1) I doubt that WCY is superior to the four greats, as well as GJ and YG.

    It would be hard to find a supporting statement that was not uttered by WCY's disciples or apprentice brother.
    But it is also hard to find evidence to point that the original four Greats (pre 16 years Ouyang Feng and Hong Qigong and post 16 years reverend Yideng and Huang Yaoshi) have surpassed Wang Chongyang.


    Wang Chongyang died probably when he was 80+ years old. Wang's talent in martial arts was said to be superior (or at least not inferior) to the other Greats including Qiu Qianren and Zhou Botong. Like some of the other Greats Wang Chongyang had access to Jiuyin. Wang Chongyang successfully absorbed the essence of Jiuyin into himself. I think it is very unlikely that the other Greats (including Zhou Botong and Qiu Qianren) have caught up with Wang Chongyang's level (when Central Divinity was 80 years old) when they are just 70+ (pre 16 years ROCH).
    I think Wang Chongyang (before his death 80+ years old) should have at least the same level of the other Greats (90+ years old) at the end of ROCH.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

  19. #19
    Senior Member dbx's Avatar
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    Yang Guo.

    His martial arts was not below anyone.
    But he raised his discples/kids better probably.


    Haha, WCY's Quan Zhen fell.
    Guo Jing's kids LOL Guo Xiang wasn't exactly raised by Guo Jing, she had to rebel to make a name for herself.
    Wu brother's descendants LOL

    Yang Guo(Domestic arts)
    Du Gu
    WCY
    ZBT
    Hong Qi Gong
    Huang Yao Shi
    Guo Jing
    Yi Deng
    OYF(His son died, but his adopted son is #1, but he killed his adopted son's father)
    Last edited by dbx; 03-31-06 at 08:30 PM.
    "I only scold dogs, not people."

  20. #20
    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbx
    Yang Guo.

    His martial arts was not below anyone.
    But he raised his discples/kids better probably.


    Haha, WCY's Quan Zhen fell.
    Guo Jing's kids LOL Guo Xiang wasn't exactly raised by Guo Jing, she had to rebel to make a name for herself.
    Wu brother's descendants LOL
    Quan Zhen flourished throughout the Yuan Dynasty. The Quan Zhen temple still exists in China.

    Zhang Sanfeng's was a practioner of Wang Chongyang's Quan Zhen Taoist inner cultivation.

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