Most hated Condor Trilogy main character?

[9ybg_CLAW]

To me, there is no reason to dislike MNC or HR.

Personally I find HR's mouth super annoying (in terms of both talking and laughing).

[Trien Chieu]

Disgress: Someone voted for ZM. Can this person care to explain?

I voted for ZM (Chiu Min) because she is so shameless with no dignity. She stole the husband from another lady right on her wedding ceremony. In addition, without her Cheung Mo Gei would have remain the leader of the Ming Sect. Chu Yuen Chueng wouldn't have a chance to take over.

Given whom the vote came from, I'll go out on a limb and speculate that it's probably because she's a Uighur working for the Mongolian Yuan government.

It is small factor but not the main reason.

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

I voted for ZM (Chiu Min) because she is so shameless with no dignity. She stole the husband from another lady right on her wedding ceremony. In addition, without her Cheung Mo Gei would have remain the leader of the Ming Sect. Chu Yuen Chueng wouldn't have a chance to take over.



It is small factor but not the main reason.

Please define 'shameless'.

Would you consider some who commits murder, theft, hypocrisy, frame up and practically forcing someone whom they knew didn't love them into marriage a person who knew what shame was?

Do you really think such a person deserved a happy ending for ethnicity alone?

[Trien Chieu]

Please define 'shameless'.

Would you consider some who commits murder, theft, hypocrisy, frame up and practically forcing someone whom they knew didn't love them into marriage a person who knew what shame was?

If CMG didn't want to get married, no one can force him. If ZM want to reveal the truth, do it another day, not on the wedding day. ZZR has every right to go after her as ZM was responsible for ZZR's teacher death.

Do you really think such a person deserved a happy ending for ethnicity alone?

No. However, her actions were so destructive especially to CMG. Without her, CMG would remain the leader of the Ming Sect and probably will be the founder of the Ming Dynasty instead of Chu Yeun Cheung. Countless people of the Ming Sect and the general population would be better off under CMG.

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

If CMG didn't want to get married, no one can force him. If ZM want to reveal the truth, do it another day, not on the wedding day. ZZR has every right to go after her as ZM was responsible for ZZR's teacher death.



No. However, her actions were so destructive especially CMG. Without her, CMG would remain the leader of the Ming Sect and probably will be the founder of the Ming Dynasty instead of Chu Yeun Cheung. Countless people of the Ming Sect and the general population would be better off under CMG.

Choose another day, like when? The honeymoon.

ZZR had set ZM up for theft and murder, why should ZM have any consideration for ZZR feelings.

ZZR had manipulate the situation to the point where ZWJ felt honoured bound to marry her. His later choice of ZM showed he never wanted to go through with it.

The death of Mie Jue was due to her own arrogance and narrow mindedness. The other 5 heads all survived the situation.

If ZWJ had remained the Cult leader he would unlikely to have founded the Dynasty. No dynasty founder was ever moral, they were cunning, ruthless, manipulative and tyrannical.

ZWJ had none of these traits. Zhu Yuan Zhang would have either ousted ZWJ or made him into a figure head. Remember ZYZ had control of the army and was able to oust Yang Xiao who although physically weaken than ZWJ was smarter and more politically sazzy

[Trien Chieu]

The death of Mie Jue was due to her own arrogance and narrow mindedness. The other 5 heads all survived the situation.

Without ZM, MJ still alive. ZM kidnapped and humiliated her. ZZR should have killed her for good when they were on the island.

If ZWJ had remained the Cult leader he would unlikely to have founded the Dynasty. No dynasty founder was ever moral, they were cunning, ruthless, manipulative and tyrannical.

ZWJ had none of these traits. Zhu Yuan Zhang would have either ousted ZWJ or made him into a figure head. Remember ZYZ had control of the army and was able to oust Yang Xiao who although physically weaken than ZWJ was smarter and more politically sazzy

With 9 yang, tai chi sword play and the supreme martial art of the Ming Sect, do you think Chu Yuen Cheung would stand a chance against Cheung Mo Gei. Chu Yuen Cheung is very weak in martial art. If Cheung Mo Gei stays as a leader, he would be the founder of the Ming Dynasty. He would treat the people in the of the Ming Sect nicely, not like Chu Yuen Cheung. Yeung Siu got over throw probably because he didn't get full support from other members of the sect as we see from HSDS.

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

Without ZM, MJ still alive. ZM kidnapped and humiliated her. ZZR should have killed her for good when they were on the island.



With 9 yang, tai chi sword play and the supreme martial art of the Ming Sect, do you think Chu Yuen Cheung would stand a chance against Cheung Mo Gei. Chu Yuen Cheung is very weak in martial art. If Cheung Mo Gei stays as a leader, he would be the founder of the Ming Dynasty. He would treat the people in the of the Ming Sect nicely, not like Chu Yuen Cheung. Yeung Siu got over throw probably because he didn't get full support from other members of the sect as we see from HSDS.

YX was a greater Martial Artist than ZYZ but was still ousted. As powerful as ZWJ was do you really think he could take an army.

History is full of examples of weaker but smarter people overcoming stronger but dumber opponents.

ZWJ has shown himself to be easily manipulated and deceived, I see no reason to think he would do any better against someone as smart as ZYZ.

ZM's treatment of MJ cannot be seen as the cause of her death as she had been in the tower for many days before the fire. If she couldn't stand the humiliation then she would have killed herself a lot sooner.

The fact that MJ died in that incident was because she was too proud to be saved by ZWJ. If she had swallowed her pride like the other 5 heads then she would have lived.

[tape]

With 9 yang, tai chi sword play and the supreme martial art of the Ming Sect, do you think Chu Yuen Cheung would stand a chance against Cheung Mo Gei. Chu Yuen Cheung is very weak in martial art. If Cheung Mo Gei stays as a leader, he would be the founder of the Ming Dynasty. He would treat the people in the of the Ming Sect nicely, not like Chu Yuen Cheung. Yeung Siu got over throw probably because he didn't get full support from other members of the sect as we see from HSDS.

The reason given is that Zhu was an important general and mastermind behind many of their successful battles, and by that point he was more important than Zhang Wuji. If he rebelled out of spite, even if it wouldn't work, it would greatly hinder their overthrow of the Mongolians. Wuji at that point was just a figurehead that wasn't really needed anymore in the greater scheme of things. Without any ambition or ability to be a great emperor, it seemed better to resign and let things play their course. A cunning and ruthless person could very well make a better emperor than a softhearted, inexperienced fledgling.

[wkeej]

The reason given is that Zhu was an important general and mastermind behind many of their successful battles, and by that point he was more important than Zhang Wuji. If he rebelled out of spite, even if it wouldn't work, it would greatly hinder their overthrow of the Mongolians. Wuji at that point was just a figurehead that wasn't really needed anymore in the greater scheme of things. Without any ambition or ability to be a great emperor, it seemed better to resign and let things play their course. A cunning and ruthless person could very well make a better emperor than a softhearted, inexperienced fledgling.

To add, if you want to be leader and someone else also wants to be leader, it is either you back out or kill the other person. Think about Genghis-Khan and his sworn brother or Liu Bang and Xiang Yu.

[wkeej]

If CMG didn't want to get married, no one can force him. If ZM want to reveal the truth, do it another day, not on the wedding day. ZZR has every right to go after her as ZM was responsible for ZZR's teacher death.

If I believe correctly, ZM did it deliberately on that day. MJ need not die if she is willing to be saved by ZWJ, right?

[Trien Chieu]

MJ need not die if she is willing to be saved by ZWJ, right?

If ZM didn't kidnap her she would not die, right? Either directly or indirectly, it was ZM action that lead to her death.

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

If ZM didn't kidnap her she would not die, right? Either directly or indirectly, it was ZM action that lead to her death.

ZM might have creator the situation but it was MJ actions that lead to her death.

Its like ZM is the captain of a ship that hits an iceberg. The passengers, one of whom is MJ are being loaded on to the rescue boats, but she refuses to board as she doesn't like the officer in charge of the boat.

So who is to blame for that passenger drowning?

[tape]

If ZM didn't kidnap her she would not die, right? Either directly or indirectly, it was ZM action that lead to her death.

If ZZR decided to take vengeance in an open manner I don't think anyone would blame her; ZM was the mastermind after all.

And even poison or or underhanded methods wouldn't really be wrong, since ZM has much more at her disposal and ZZR wasn't really in a position to directly kill her.

But it seemed her motive was more to frame ZM and live happily ever after with Wuji than to just simply avenge her master. People generally don't like two faced people who are willing to lie to their closest ones...at the least ZM was more or less upfront about her motives. She was a Mongolian, and she had a job to do, so you at least guard against her. ZZR's actions naturally are disliked by society.

[Ken Cheng]

If ZZR decided to take vengeance in an open manner I don't think anyone would blame her; ZM was the mastermind after all.

And even poison or or underhanded methods wouldn't really be wrong, since ZM has much more at her disposal and ZZR wasn't really in a position to directly kill her.

But it seemed her motive was more to frame ZM and live happily ever after with Wuji than to just simply avenge her master. People generally don't like two faced people who are willing to lie to their closest ones...at the least ZM was more or less upfront about her motives. She was a Mongolian, and she had a job to do, so you at least guard against her. ZZR's actions naturally are disliked by society.

Beyond that, Chow Chi Yerk used and harmed a number of innocent people to facilitate her scheme...I think that was the worst part.

[wkeej]

Over the years, I do pity and feel sad for ZZR. She has a heavy burden - the need to "revive" her kingdom; stealing the sword and sabre and the promise not to marry ZWJ.

[pannonian]

Over the years, I do pity and feel sad for ZZR. She has a heavy burden - the need to "revive" her kingdom; stealing the sword and sabre and the promise not to marry ZWJ.

She killed a couple who had nothing to do with her, simply because they were in the vicinity when she tried to ambush ZWJ and ZM. That was similar to her attempt to kill Zhu er who'd witnessed her forcing ZM off the island. Later, he Emei killed bystanders who'd done nothing more than refuse to accept Emei's authority. Lastly, when ZM tried to help her to drive out her malfunctioning yin energy, ZZR took advantage of her kindheartedness to drive said yin energy into her instead, and furthermore, when ZWJ misread what was happening and tried to "help" ZZR and ZM, ZZR attacked the stationary ZM, receiving poetic justice when she broke her fingers in the process. ZZR after taking over Emei's leadership was as nasty a character as you'll find in JY's stories, comparable to Yue Buqun.

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

She killed a couple who had nothing to do with her, simply because they were in the vicinity when she tried to ambush ZWJ and ZM. That was similar to her attempt to kill Zhu er who'd witnessed her forcing ZM off the island. Later, he Emei killed bystanders who'd done nothing more than refuse to accept Emei's authority. Lastly, when ZM tried to help her to drive out her malfunctioning yin energy, ZZR took advantage of her kindheartedness to drive said yin energy into her instead, and furthermore, when ZWJ misread what was happening and tried to "help" ZZR and ZM, ZZR attacked the stationary ZM, receiving poetic justice when she broke her fingers in the process. ZZR after taking over Emei's leadership was as nasty a character as you'll find in JY's stories, comparable to Yue Buqun.

Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.

I am no fan of ZZR, but can see how some people would sympathise with her.

She had potential to be a leading light in the world but went down the wrong path.

[wkeej]

She killed a couple who had nothing to do with her, simply because they were in the vicinity when she tried to ambush ZWJ and ZM. That was similar to her attempt to kill Zhu er who'd witnessed her forcing ZM off the island. Later, he Emei killed bystanders who'd done nothing more than refuse to accept Emei's authority. Lastly, when ZM tried to help her to drive out her malfunctioning yin energy, ZZR took advantage of her kindheartedness to drive said yin energy into her instead, and furthermore, when ZWJ misread what was happening and tried to "help" ZZR and ZM, ZZR attacked the stationary ZM, receiving poetic justice when she broke her fingers in the process. ZZR after taking over Emei's leadership was as nasty a character as you'll find in JY's stories, comparable to Yue Buqun.

So, she is "bad" by nature?

[Ken Cheng]

So, she is "bad" by nature?

Perhaps. Long before her teacher Mit Jeut See Tai died, and perhaps even before she joined the Ngor Mei Sect as a child, Chow Chi Yerk manifested subtle Machiavellian traits that would come to their fruition near the end of the story.

[Trien Chieu]

I smell a lot of bias here. When ZM done something wrong in a big scale, people tend to forgive her easily, even make excuse for her actions. On the other hand, when ZZR make a small mistake, it's bad bad bad. I wonder why the wulin people didn't go after ZM given what she had done to them. I hope Chu Yuen Cheung goes after ZM and her people mercilessly after he found the Ming Dynasty. ZM and her people need to pay the price for their actions. Chu Yuen Cheung should not have any mercy for them.