Obai vs. Ng 3 Gwai as military commanders

[Ken Cheng]

Obai and Ng 3 Gwai separately posed the greatest threats to Emperor K'ang Hsi's reign during DOMD (and perhaps in real world history as well), and both were excellent military leaders. If the two of them were to lead equal armies against each other in equal situations (e.g. all other factors do not favor one side or the other), which man's military prowess and skill would more likely prevail?

[pannonian]

Oboi was physically strong and politically powerful, but Wu Sangui was a very good military commander, possibly the best in China at the time. It took the combined efforts of Kang Xi's most capable subordinate generals, backed up with superior forces, to beat him, and even then they suffered early defeats which nonetheless whittled down Wu Sangui's own resources. Kang Xi's strategy was to throw his best generals backed by numbers at Wu Sangui, with the expectation that they'd lose the early battles but chip away at Wu Sangui's forces, until such a point where even Wu Sangui's genius couldn't hold out any longer.

[Ace High]

Oboi was physically strong and politically powerful, but Wu Sangui was a very good military commander, possibly the best in China at the time. It took the combined efforts of Kang Xi's most capable subordinate generals, backed up with superior forces, to beat him, and even then they suffered early defeats which nonetheless whittled down Wu Sangui's own resources. Kang Xi's strategy was to throw his best generals backed by numbers at Wu Sangui, with the expectation that they'd lose the early battles but chip away at Wu Sangui's forces, until such a point where even Wu Sangui's genius couldn't hold out any longer.

And Oboi did feared WSG's military might. When WSG came to Beijing for Shun Zhi's funeral, Oboi imposed a lot of conditions to the former before allowing WSG to enter the Capital.

[Ken Cheng]

And Oboi did feared WSG's military might. When WSG came to Beijing for Shun Zhi's funeral, Oboi imposed a lot of conditions to the former before allowing WSG to enter the Capital.

I think Ng 3 Gwai had a larger garrison (more men and weaponry), but was he necessarily a superior military mind to Obai?

[Ace High]

I think Ng 3 Gwai had a larger garrison (more men and weaponry), but was he necessarily a superior military mind to Obai?

Long before Oboi was captured and eventually killed, WSG has begun his military preparation in his enevitable clash against the Qing. When WXB when to Yunnan, he noted how well prepared and well trained WSG's troops compared to the Eight Banners' troops.

[charbydis]

As a Fan Wang in Yu Nan, WSG had larger troops to defend against other forces at the borders. He also had the geographic advantage of being at a safe distance from Beijing. He could plan and scheme away from the eyes of Kang Xi and probably had more freedom to train or equip his men as he pleased. Whereas Oboi was stuck in Beijing and I believe armies were not allowed to garrison within the city walls. He could not move troops easily even though he was one of the main counsellors, and his moves were watched by Kang Xi's spies because he lived so close, so he had either do everything secretly or do nothing at all.

Futhermore, WSG probably had the support of surrended Ming commanders that were oppressed by Manchurian commanders, and gathered under WSG as a group for protection. As a military commander, WSG was probably more crafty and understood the works of the Eight Banner Troops due to previous experienced when he defended Shan Hai Pass. Oboi always gave me the impression that he was more of a man of action than of mind, relying his physical strength and political influence and underestimating the young Emperor.

Out of the two, I back WSG as the more deadlier enemy of Qing.

[Ace High]

As a Fan Wang in Yu Nan, WSG had larger troops to defend against other forces at the borders. He also had the geographic advantage of being at a safe distance from Beijing. He could plan and scheme away from the eyes of Kang Xi and probably had more freedom to train or equip his men as he pleased.

I beg to differ.

Oboi had controlled the Imperial Court completely established a system of near absolute rule under himself. Sonin was already dead and Sukhsaha was executed. The remaining regent, Ebilun was under Oboi’s control.

Whereas Oboi was stuck in Beijing and I believe armies were not allowed to garrison within the city walls. He could not move troops easily even though he was one of the main counsellors, and his moves were watched by Kang Xi's spies because he lived so close, so he had either do everything secretly or do nothing at all.

The Eight Banners troops were stationed at eight of the nine city gates, one gate per banner, except for the Zhengyangmen. The Bordered Yellow banner at Andingmen, the Plain Yellow banner at Deshengmen, the Plain White banner at Dongzhimen, the Bordered White banner at Chaoyangmen, the Plain Red banner at Xizhimen, the Bordered Red banner at Fuchengmen, the Plain Blue banner at Chongwenmen, and the Bordered Blue banner at Xuanwumen. Each banner had an office hall, several troop barracks, a patrol station, and a warehouse. Each banner would have at least 7,500 troops for a total of 60,000 troops.

In addition to the Eight Banners, troops permanently encamped in and around Beijing included the Qianfengying, Hujunying, Bujun Xunbuying, Jianruiying, Huoqiying (in charge of artillery), Shenjiying (first begun in 1862), and the Huqiangying (in charge of guns).

We can safely said that there were more than 100 thousand troops stationed in Beijing.

Futhermore, WSG probably had the support of surrended Ming commanders that were oppressed by Manchurian commanders, and gathered under WSG as a group for protection. As a military commander, WSG was probably more crafty and understood the works of the Eight Banner Troops due to previous experienced when he defended Shan Hai Pass.

More likely the commanders who were previously under WSG continued to serve him.

There were a lot of capable Han commanders that served directly the Qing, such as Zhang Yong, Zhao Liang Dong, Wang Jin Bao and Sun Si Ke (they really do exist, not just characters created by Jin Yong).

[426mak]

Difficult call. If I had to put money on it I would give a very slight edge to Obi, not as an individual general but because of warfare style.

WSG was a Ming general and his most notable success pre Manchu invasion was defensive. It stands to reason his style would be infantry based with cavalry in support.

Obi was an old school Manchu general thus would most like use the archer/armoured cavalry combo.

History tells us in these clashes unless the infantry can trap the fast cavalry then the latter always wins. So unless WSG has a terrain advantage then Obi can run circles around him until he wins.

[Ian Liew]

WSG was a Ming general and his most notable success pre Manchu invasion was defensive. It stands to reason his style would be infantry based with cavalry in support.

Post-Manchu invasion Wu Sangui was also very active in the campaigns against the Southern Ming Emperors. Those were battles in which he took on an attacking role, and the Southern Ming remnants lasted close to a decade in war with the Qing (under whose banner Wu Sangui fought). His army and tactics would have changed significantly since the years defending Shanhaiguan.

[426mak]

Post-Manchu invasion Wu Sangui was also very active in the campaigns against the Southern Ming Emperors. Those were battles in which he took on an attacking role, and the Southern Ming remnants lasted close to a decade in war with the Qing (under whose banner Wu Sangui fought). His army and tactics would have changed significantly since the years defending Shanhaiguan.

Not necessarily. The southern campaign was against infantry based armies so traditional Ming tactics would have been sufficient.

Also these battles were against remnants of previously defeated foes. Hardly top quality opponents that require new tactics to defeat.

The only real threat to the Manchus at the time were the Zhengs and they were a naval force.

[Ace High]

Not necessarily. The southern campaign was against infantry based armies so traditional Ming tactics would have been sufficient.

Also these battles were against remnants of previously defeated foes. Hardly top quality opponents that require new tactics to defeat.

The only real threat to the Manchus at the time were the Zhengs and they were a naval force.

You vastly underestimate the military strength of the Three Feudatories. During the Revolt of Three Feudatories, they even manage to control 8 out of the 18 provinces. Yunnan, Guizhou, Guangdong, Fujian, Hunan, Sichuan, Guangxi and Shaanxi all were under their controls. The Qing was left only with 10 provinces. Furthermore, it took the Qing more than 8 years (August 1673 – November 1681) to quell the Revolt of Three Feudatories, with the first half the Qing was in the defensive mode.

The Zhengs wasn’t that much of a threat to the Qing. In a way, they enjoyed protection from the Three Feudatories previously as the Qing attention was focused on the Three Feudatories. After the Revolt of Three Feudatories was quelled, the Qing was able to turn their attention to Taiwan. With a single battle, which is the Battle of Penghu (1683), Taiwan’s defensive capabilities were utterly destroyed.

[Trien Chieu]

I know this is out of topic but I wonder whether conquering the whole China, Qinghai, Xinjiang, Mongolia and Tibet a big mistake by the Manchu? Logically, if you conquer a land with much much higher population than your, you will eventually lose in the end. If the Manchu didn't over expand themselves but stick to their homeland with little expansion and help the weak Ming dynasty survived, they would still have their own country.

[Ace High]

I know this is out of topic but I wonder whether conquering the whole China, Qinghai, Xinjiang, Mongolia and Tibet a big mistake by the Manchu? Logically, if you conquer a land with much much higher population than your, you will eventually lose in the end. If the Manchu didn't over expand themselves but stick to their homeland with little expansion and help the weak Ming dynasty survived, they would still have their own country.

It's just the dynastic cycle making a full round again.