When/at what age does Guo Jing *actually* reach the level of a Great?

[30Rocker]

I haven't read Return of the Condor Heroes in a while, but here's what I remember:

It's stated that in no specific terms in the beginning of the story, when he fights Ouyang Feng on the rooftop, that he has improved drastically since the end of Legend of the Condor Heroes, which was about 10 years prior, making him about 30 years old. This duel provides a nice little progress report as it's practically a stalemate, and both of them are wounded in the end. Reading this, it would seem that whatever progress Ouyang Feng makes in the ~10 year gap, Guo Jing has caught up to him.

During the scuffle on Zhong Nan Mountain a short while later, he battles the Taoists using the Big Dipper Formation and manages to break all but two of their swords with his internal energy. However, he silently laments to himself that not being able to break all of the swords with one stance is a nagging sign that he has yet to reach his peak in power, and still has a ways to go until he reaches his maximum potential.

In the years following, when he's about 40(?) years old, we see pretty much the rest of Guo Jing in actual action; battling Jin Lun Guo Shi, hordes of Mongolian soldiers, and also battling the Guo Shi, Xiao Xiang Zi, and Ni Mo Xing and holding his own until he is injured trying to protect Yang Guo. Towards the end of the novel, when Guo Jing is in his late 50's, we don't see him in battle but it's assumed that he's pretty much peaked in terms of internal energy and skill.

So at what age can Guo Jing be considered as legendary as his moniker of The Northern Hero (Bei Xia)? Is it right from the beginning when he's battling a Great, or is it at the end when he is named one of them?

[tape]

Officially I'd say he reaches the level when he fights Ouyang Feng in the beginning. He hasn't fought anyone near that caliber since end of LOCH so I'd say that's his first real test -- which he passed.

About the breaking swords thing, those sort of details always bothered me. Being able to break all the swords doesn't make him perfect, though the more swords he breaks, the closer he is to perfect.

[ChronoReverse]

I think it's not so much breaking all the swords makes him perfect but the fact he couldn't clearly shows he hasn't perfected his internal energy.

As for when he reached "great" level, it wouldn't have been more than a few years past the end of LOCH if we're talking about the initial LOCH "great" level. After all, the OYF at the beginning of ROCH is stronger than the one at the end of LOCH who was also stronger than the one at the beginning of LOCH.

[tape]

I think it's not so much breaking all the swords makes him perfect but the fact he couldn't clearly shows he hasn't perfected his internal energy.

As for when he reached "great" level, it wouldn't have been more than a few years past the end of LOCH if we're talking about the initial LOCH "great" level. After all, the OYF at the beginning of ROCH is stronger than the one at the end of LOCH who was also stronger than the one at the beginning of LOCH.

Well the thing is it seems to be an arbitrary number to say he hasn't perfected his internal energy. Would he think the same if the formation was made of 5, 10, 20 more swords? Or if there were a few young Taoists that happened to have stronger than average energy and was able to resist the breaking? I mean I understand the "wuxia physics" of the scenario, it's just something that I never liked about it.

I think the "great" level should be benchmarked at where the current Greats are, since they earned the title 20 years prior to the beginning of LOCH, which Guo Jing might even have reached by the end of LOCH already. We know that they improved so much that each thought there was almost no way the other Greats would be their match initially, but they all just happened to be at the same level yet again.

[CancerLuna]

I think the answer is based on whether the reader believes the greats improved tremendously during the breaks (Loch->Roch, 16 year gap).

If greats improved by a lot during the 16 year gap, then GJ reached great level between the 16 year gap, so around 40~.

If greats only had tiny improvements throughout, then GJ reached it before he fought OYF, so before the the Loch->Roch transition, putting him around <30 when he reached that level.

Interestingly, if you subscribe to the second theory, GJ, YG and ZWJ all got to Great Level (in internal energy anyway) around the same time. ZWJ around 20s after bag incident, YG should be around 25-26 after his ocean training, and GJ should be <30 when he reached his level before fighting OYF.

[tape]

Hard to quantify, but Hong Qigong specifically thought that his own martial arts had improved greatly between LOCH and ROCH.

[Ken Cheng]

In terms of feats, did any of the Greats do anything (in terms of martial arts) during ROCH that they clearly could *not* have done at any time during LOCH?

[30Rocker]

Well the thing is it seems to be an arbitrary number to say he hasn't perfected his internal energy. Would he think the same if the formation was made of 5, 10, 20 more swords? Or if there were a few young Taoists that happened to have stronger than average energy and was able to resist the breaking? I mean I understand the "wuxia physics" of the scenario, it's just something that I never liked about it.

I think the "great" level should be benchmarked at where the current Greats are, since they earned the title 20 years prior to the beginning of LOCH, which Guo Jing might even have reached by the end of LOCH already. We know that they improved so much that each thought there was almost no way the other Greats would be their match initially, but they all just happened to be at the same level yet again.

"Wuxia physics" seems to be pretty unreliable. I know that there a few orthodox rules that all of the martial artists follow, but the outcome of some fights seem to be purely situational, sometimes completely ignoring all of these rules set in place.

And you're right, the benchmark of a Great should definitely be where the current Greats are. Since Guo Jing is equal to Ouyang Feng in the beginning of the story, I would also think that he reached this level at ~30 years old at the LATEST. However, some small annoying details like the sword thing seems to be the story contradicting itself.

[tape]

However, some small annoying details like the sword thing seems to be the story contradicting itself.

The greats aren't perfect either though, so his energy not being perfect isn't a deal breaker. Yang Guo post 16 years compared to Yideng, or Wuji compared to Zhang Sanfeng, they both have much less refined energy than the two elders, but they would likely win in a straight up fight due to their other advantages. Even the Du monks technically have a higher level of energy than Wuji I believe -- they just have much less of it.

[30Rocker]

In terms of feats, did any of the Greats do anything (in terms of martial arts) during ROCH that they clearly could *not* have done at any time during LOCH?

I would say no, but that may be because between both of the stories, it's hard to find a benchmark of what they are capable of. For example, with Yi Deng, we don't see him fight at all in LOCH (I think?) but he goes into battle with Jin Lun Guo Shi near the end of ROCH, which was awesome, but we don't have much to compare it to other than his legend that precedes him. But since it clearly states that his Yi Yang Zhi has reached ultimate perfection, we might be able to extrapolate that he probably was not as good ~30 some years ago in LOCH.

As far as other feats, we don't really see the Greats in a lot of action in ROCH, but maybe when Guo Jing uses that Ascending Heaven's Ladder(?) technique outside of Xiang Yang could be considered one.