What if Christianity had a greater presence in the world of wuxia?

[Ken Cheng]

In wuxia fiction, religious individuals and organizations are most commonly associated with either Buddhism or Taoism. This is understandable considering that these were the two most dominant organized religions in China during the centuries that most wuxia stories take place. There are also the occasional Manichaeist or even Muslim, but Christianity is largely unrepresented in wuxia fiction.

This too is based upon historical reality: Christianity had virtually no presence in the Chinese consciousness until Jesuit missionaries from Europe began arriving in China during the Ming Dynasty, and even then, Christianity did not really make any headway among the Chinese population until well into the Qing Dynasty...by which time most wuxia stories had already passed.

But what if a significant Christian presence had entered China by, say, the time of the Tang Dynasty? What if Christian martial arts sects had appeared in wuxia stories set during the Sung, Yuan, and early Ming Dynasties? Things could get interesting. In the wuxia stories we know, Buddhist and Taoist sects such as Shaolin, Cheun Jen Sect, Mo Dong Sect, and Ngor Mei Sect often had conflicts against one another for various reasons, but religion was never one of those reasons. There was remarkable religious tolerance in wulin. Medieval Christianity, however, had a mindset of either converting the "heathens" (and thus, "saving" them) or destroying them as infidels.

Moreover, would a medieval Christian sect in Chinese wulin have been willing to train in chi and other advanced skills, which they might have interpreted as "Satanic?"

Things to think about.

[dojima_no_ryu]

Thats a pretty interesting thought experiment As we all know Ming sect is in actual fact Manicheanism, the belief system of St Augustine b4 his conversion to christianity, and islam makes an appearance in book and sword. Given the militant inquisiton style of the abrahamic faiths during that period - crusades and all that - its difficult to picture a peaceful co-existance of christianity with the other sects in wuxia. However, there might be 2 alternative ways to portray Christianity - a. Arthurian style with honour but unshakable adherance to destroying heathens, a bunch of male miejues in other words or b. Spanish inquisition style devils in all out assault mode. I do find it difficult to imagine how JY can portray wugong as an inherent part of Christian doctrine as in the case of the chinese religions, but if Manicheanism can produce a green vampire I guess anything goes...

[Bei Rongkun]

Christianity did had significant history in China wuxia world. In Qing dynasty the Boxer Rebellion was influenced by Christianity. And it somehow represent the Ming cult where the member is pro Han and high standard sect rules.

[Ken Cheng]

Christianity did had significant history in China wuxia world. In Qing dynasty the Boxer Rebellion was influenced by Christianity.

Ah, but that was very late in the game...when the bulk of wuxia stories had already taken place. Even in the Qing Dynasty stories, Christianity tended to play a minimal role, if any at all.

[Bei Rongkun]

Oops... it was not Boxer rebellion, I mean was TAIPING Rebellion with his leader Hong Xiuquan and the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom 太平天囯 organization.

[Ken Cheng]

Oops... it was not Boxer rebellion, I mean was TAIPING Rebellion with his leader Hong Xiuquan and the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom 太平天囯 organization.

That's the one notable exception wherein Christianity and wuxia meet head-on, but even this story took place in a wulin wherein the era of the great Buddhist and Taoist wulin sects had mostly passed. There was not a dominant Shaolin, Mo Dong, or Ngor Mei whose religion would compete with that of the Christians.

[dojima_no_ryu]

would you guys consider the wong fei hong and fong sai yuk type stories part of the wuxia canon? I'm a noob to this forum just curious what the conventions of the wuxia genre are... in my mind qing era stories mostly have less of an element of jianghu and wulin, and the sects are replaced by gong fu schools like wing chun, choy lay fot - and sects like taiping nd white lotus - and the like... would you consider that to constitute a jianghu/wulin?

[flamer]

In general, works with people who can fly (lightness kung fu) are considered wuxia. Hence Huang Feihong doesn't qualify.

[dojima_no_ryu]

haha ok thanks for the info. I wonder what christians would reaact when they see wuxia cats walking on water and reviving paralyzed ppl with neigong

[forgot password]

That'd be awesome. I'd love to read about closet perverted Christian nuns seducing wulin folks. Christian nuns and Buddhist nuns blaming each other for being witchy then slapping the hell outta each other wouldn't be bad either. Then, there should be some kind of trademark martial arts for Christians, say, Satan Subduing Thirdteen Palms, or Apocalyptic Divine Cross Technique.

[dojima_no_ryu]

What would be cool as well would be maybe 2 divisions of christianity, like dark/light side of the force, with one side using wudang style 'soft' holy powers and another using 'hard' and cruel wugong. The crucifix idea is pretty cool, and maybe a neigong that crushes the head with a crown of thorns would be too.. theres much potential for political shenanigans given the highly hierarchial structure of medieval christianity.. depednign on the era we would have either the holy roman empire or the crusaders coming into play.. wonder if im being carried away here haha

[liubang1992]

i'll tell you what would happen, there would be the new sect known as vatican sect, with the staple move the thousand hands of christ, the item passed on to future generations would be the grail and the cross, to learn the ultimate skill u need to die and resurrect on third day (kind of like silk thingy in reincarnated)

[kyss of the sword]

there were branches of Christianity that followed a different type of believe then the modern mainstream beliefs that exist now. some of those ideals were similar to certain hindu beliefs as Christianity originated from near where Hinduism orignated. and some hindu beliefs are similar to daoist beliefs. so it's possible for christians in old times to learn and practice martial arts from china in ancient times.

[K2Grey]

I wonder what kinds of Christianity themed martial arts there would be e.g. Foot Washing Palm.

[kyss of the sword]

12 palms of the apostles. flaming sword of gabriel's wings. water parting staff of moses. water walking skill of jesus. fishing followers net techniques. serpent entering the heart skill of eden.

possiblities are endless.

[Dugu Qiubai's cousin]

The 1st recorded incursions of Christian (actually not "mainstream" Christians but Nestorians) missionaries to China occurred in the Tang Dynasty. According to Wikipedia, Christianity had significant influence in the Mongol Empire, i.e.: in the Yuan Dynasty as well. I read somewhere that the Mongol/Yuan emperors used to receive visiting missions from the Pope in their courts. In fact, some Yuan emperors even kept a couple of missionaries as some kind of secondary advisor or teacher in their courts.

When it came to the Ming dynasty however, the rather nationalistic court tried to expel all foreign stuff, including Christianity. Outright persecution of Christians may not necessarily have happened then, but certainly the churches, missionary organizations were closed down, groups of worshippers dispersed.

IMHO, Christianity in the form preached by these missionaries is unlikely to create individuals and groups to form martial arts sects along the model of Wudang etc. The emphasis of these missionaries was on proselytizing the religion and promoting the Christian lifestyle which is peaceful and non-violent.

However, considering that many Buddhist and Taoist temples (most notably Shaolin) developed a martial arts tradition over the years as a form of self-defence, given some more time and some persecutions, perhaps these groups of early Christians worshippers may develop such traditions as well.

Many people think that the Crusades represent a violent/aggressive form of Christianity (male versions of Miejue...LOL). Actually the Crusades were a social phenomenon created by the people in power at the time (the Pope and the Church, the kings and nobles, etc) for political reasons rather than being natural expressions of the ways of Jesus. They wanted to turn the attention of the people away from local problems with the economy and stuff. The conditions that initiated the Crusades (including the beliefs and perspectives of the crusaders) in Europe did not exist or even fit in medieval China.

However, it is possible that someone in wulin may have converted to Christianity, and then tries to assimilate/integrate his/her new beliefs into the existing wulin/wuxia rules and practices. Hahah...really curious how this may turn out.

[Banh Mi]

After all, the bible is a thinly veiled fighting manual. Turn the other cheek is another way of saying roll with the punches.

[CC]

If you had Christian Sects mixing it up in a wuxia setting, then it would only be fair to give the Christian fighters their share of 'powers' too.

There are enough Japanese anime out there with Knights and Clerics using flaming swords and summoning elemental powers etc etc.


Not too hard to imagine a fantasy world where the Apostle Palms can match the Luohan Fists, the 18 Satan Banishing Fists can match the 18 Dragon Subduing Palms, the 7 Seraphic Wings vs the 6 Meridian Divine Swords etc etc...

Fist of God vs Buddha Palm. Why didn't the HK film industry come up with something like that?

[PJ]

They must also have a SWORD GOD, except named something like William McCartney.

[Dirt]

They'd do the the same things, they would just call it different things and credit everything to God.

Or they'd be like any given Samurai roaming around Jiang Hu.

The thing is, the West had just as good martial arts as China or Korea or Japan. The reason that those arts have largely been lost is because the West industrialized a lot sooner than the East. The sword became nothing than an ornament once guns were manufactured on a large scale.