Is Lin Ping Zhi the most tragic character in Jin Yong novel?

[Doc Kwok]

I agree that the Qingcheng sect and others are looking for him for revenge. However, I don't think anyone in wulin would be interested about Pixie Swordplay given what they have to sacrifice. Hell no.

The requirement still wasn't public knowledge at the end of the story. Besides, out of all the characters in the story with access to the Sunflower manual or its derivatives, only Ren Woxing has been shown to withstand the temptation - all the others underwent the chop eagerly enough.

[tape]

I wonder if Fang Zheng would have been tempted to practice it; after all he was scolded by Chong Xu for having a desire to see it, he is an old, old monk that really doesn't use that body part very much, and Buddhist philosophy teaches having one is the same as not having one so...

[Doc Kwok]

I wonder if Fang Zheng would have been tempted to practice it; after all he was scolded by Chong Xu for having a desire to see it, he is an old, old monk that really doesn't use that body part very much, and Buddhist philosophy teaches having one is the same as not having one so...

That reminds me, the Shaolin monk Hong Ye (Du Yuan/Lin Yuantu's teacher) was able to resist the temptation too.

The Pixie manual version of the requirement was '武林稱雄，揮劍自宮'. I wonder if the practitioners ever noticed the irony - the character '雄' (xiong/hung) has strong masculine connotations, so the phrase is effectively saying 'So you want to be a man in the martial world? Then go cut your ...thing... off with a sword!'.

[tape]

I do feel bad for Lin though, since learning PiXie allows him to jump from the bottom few percent of wulin into the top 99.9%, while people like Reverend Hong Ye or Ren Woxing are already there and the gains are relatively less. Plus his terrible history and situation really makes me feel bad for him. I don't think I would make better decisions than him at any point of the story until killing Yue Lingshan (I don't think I would personally do that); I would probably try to kill Linghu Chong and team up with Zuo though since there really isn't much left in my life.

If we take it politically/economically, it makes me think of the phrase "poor people can't afford morals". It's much easier to make good decisions when you're in a good position to think about them, but it's very hard to make good decisions when your life is being threatened every minute of your life and you are burdened by the thought of revenge at the same time. Add in the fact that the whole world just seems to be a cruel place (Yue Buqun, Yu Canghai, and possibly Yue Lingshan in his mind) there really isn't too much pushing you to think in a positive or logical way.

[Trien Chieu]

I do feel bad for Lin though, since learning PiXie allows him to jump from the bottom few percent of wulin into the top 99.9%, while people like Reverend Hong Ye or Ren Woxing are already there and the gains are relatively less. Plus his terrible history and situation really makes me feel bad for him. I don't think I would make better decisions than him at any point of the story until killing Yue Lingshan (I don't think I would personally do that); I would probably try to kill Linghu Chong and team up with Zuo though since there really isn't much left in my life.

Wow, so you would chop off your manhood in order to learn Pixie Swordplay? I would make much better decision than him. I would pretend not to know anything about Pixie Swordplay. I would stick to Lingshan like he did to avoid YBQ. Again, if LPZ has the patient, everything will work out ok for him.

If we take it politically/economically, it makes me think of the phrase "poor people can't afford morals".

Of course "poor people can afford morals". All they need is willing to work hard. Look at those immigrants from third countries to the US/Canada/Australia/ect, they start with nothing with no english. They are willing to work for minimum wage. They are willing to work like 12 hour/day, 7 days a week. After years of hard work they move up the ladder. On the other hand, there are people who were born in US/Canada/Australia/ect with english as their first language and they stay at the bottom with no chance of moving up. All you need is to watch the reality show "the first 48" of A&E, you will know what I am talking about.

It's much easier to make good decisions when you're in a good position to think about them, but it's very hard to make good decisions when your life is being threatened every minute of your life and you are burdened by the thought of revenge at the same time. Add in the fact that the whole world just seems to be a cruel place (Yue Buqun, Yu Canghai, and possibly Yue Lingshan in his mind) there really isn't too much pushing you to think in a positive or logical way.

The world can be cruel and dangerous, but good decisions are always there. Look at all the heroes, most of them face tough situation but they always make the correct decision.

[Ren Wo Xing]

I'm sorry, but no sympathy for LPZ for me. Killing Yue Lingshan was a 'kick the dog' moment and he totally crossed the 'moral event horizon'. No sympathy, no redemption. Not for murdering your wife for no remotely rational reason at all.

[tape]

Understandable. It was easier for me because I really dislike Yue Lingshan.

[Ace High]

But why must the punishment be so harsh; to be imprisoned in the cell beneath the Mei Manor? This is already beyond punishment and close to the realm of torture.

Hes already blind , lost all his martial arts, castrated, and crippled.

He already dont pose any kind of threat to anyone.

You are arguing that LPZ must be given leniency on the ground that he’s already blind, lost all his martial arts, castrated, and crippled.

The castrated part should not be taken into consideration because it his own doing.

After LPZ was blinded, he killed his own wife just to show his ‘sincerity’ to ZLC. And then they plotted together to kill numerous members of the Five Mountains Sword School. Therefore, being blind in no circumstances should be made as an excuse.

As has been mentioned by Doc Kwok, LPZ’s knowledge of Bixie Jian Fa itself is threat to LHC specially and the Martial World in general. People could look for LPZ to learn that sword skill and bring countless troubles. And LPZ definitely a schemer.

What difference is it going to make if Linghu Chong were to isolate Lin Ping Zhi in some remote mountain / village hut or something?

For me I felt Lin's punishment was handed down without any consideration given to the mitigating factors of his circumstances.

Could a blind and crippled person survive in some remote mountain / village hut or something? Or should LHC provide LPZ with social service as well?

[tape]

I think the thing is that LPZ's fate was one worse than death for most of us; LHC only did not kill him because of his promise to YLS, but obviously LHC should have realized the spirit of her words would not be to make him suffer worse than death.

I suppose LPZ could have just starved himself at anytime if he wanted to die...but that's a bit tougher than if someone just outright killed you. I guess it would be easier to accept if LHC asked LPZ if he would rather die or be imprisoned.

[xiaop]

I think the thing is that LPZ's fate was one worse than death for most of us; LHC only did not kill him because of his promise to YLS, but obviously LHC should have realized the spirit of her words would not be to make him suffer worse than death.

I suppose LPZ could have just starved himself at anytime if he wanted to die...but that's a bit tougher than if someone just outright killed you. I guess it would be easier to accept if LHC asked LPZ if he would rather die or be imprisoned.

My point exactly. LPZ's eternal imprisonment in the cell under the Mei Manor was really a fate worse than death itself.

I dont think LHC actually spared him. Instead he kept LPZ alive just so to torture him mentally and spiritually.

[xiaop]

That reminds me, the Shaolin monk Hong Ye (Du Yuan/Lin Yuantu's teacher) was able to resist the temptation too.

The Pixie manual version of the requirement was '武林稱雄，揮劍自宮'. I wonder if the practitioners ever noticed the irony - the character '雄' (xiong/hung) has strong masculine connotations, so the phrase is effectively saying 'So you want to be a man in the martial world? Then go cut your ...thing... off with a sword!'.

Alas, all of you left out 2 very crucial people who resisted the temptation of the Bixie Swordplay manual. That is Lin Ping Zhi's dad, Lin Zhen Nan and his grand-dad, Lin Zhong Xiong.

Both of these knew the location of the manual and yet decided to leave it untouched.

Lin Zhong Xiong would have done it for filial piety. But he should know he isnt the real son of Lin Yuan Tu, is it not?

Lin Zhen Nan, also, was the greatest of fools IMO.

Why didnt he even think of taking a glance of the manual, especially when his clan is being massacred, and this manual could possibly be the only salvation for his family?

If Lin Zhen Nan had just read through the few verses of the manual. i think Yu Cang Hai and his goons would have died 10 times over, much less say even laid a feather on the Fu Wei Manor.

[Ace High]

My point exactly. LPZ's eternal imprisonment in the cell under the Mei Manor was really a fate worse than death itself.

I dont think LHC actually spared him. Instead he kept LPZ alive just so to torture him mentally and spiritually.

So basically, if LHC killed LPZ immediately as to spare him a fate worst than death, then LHC is a cruel guy who didn’t give LPZ any chance of redemption at all by sentencing LPZ to the death penalty on the spot.

If LHC imprisoned LPZ, then LHC is a cruel guy who want to torture LPZ mentally and spiritually.

[Doc Kwok]

Alas, all of you left out 2 very crucial people who resisted the temptation of the Bixie Swordplay manual. That is Lin Ping Zhi's dad, Lin Zhen Nan and his grand-dad, Lin Zhong Xiong.

Both of these knew the location of the manual and yet decided to leave it untouched.

They did not know that was the Pixie manual - all they know is that there was something there that Lin Yuantu said must not be perused. As far as they knew, Pixie swordplay was always transmitted personally from father-to-son, and had no reason to believe they had received a watered-down version and that there was a manual containing the real thing. I suppose there is always the temptation to take a peek anyway, but that is a different temptation.

Lin Zhong Xiong would have done it for filial piety. But he should know he isnt the real son of Lin Yuan Tu, is it not?

No, why should he, if he was adopted when sufficiently young? You also seem to be suggesting that filial piety doesn't matter if the your parents are not your biological ones...

Lin Zhen Nan, also, was the greatest of fools IMO.

Why didnt he even think of taking a glance of the manual, especially when his clan is being massacred, and this manual could possibly be the only salvation for his family?

If Lin Zhen Nan had just read through the few verses of the manual. i think Yu Cang Hai and his goons would have died 10 times over, much less say even laid a feather on the Fu Wei Manor.

Not a chance.

1. He didn't know it was the Pixie manual.
2. The manual was stored in a shrine in their old estate, not the one they lived in, so they couldn't get to it without being followed and/or killed anyway.
3. Training in Pixie swordplay doesn't only require castration, it also requires you to brew and consume special medicines. How is he supposed to obtain the ingredients? Even if he had the ingredients on hand, it would still take time to prepare, and presumably time to take effect.
4. Pixie swordplay is notoriously complicated. Could he really learn the moves in time?

[Trien Chieu]

They did not know that was the Pixie manual - all they know is that there was something there that Lin Yuantu said must not be perused. As far as they knew, Pixie swordplay was always transmitted personally from father-to-son, and had no reason to believe they had received a watered-down version and that there was a manual containing the real thing. I suppose there is always the temptation to take a peek anyway, but that is a different temptation.

Not a chance.

1. He didn't know it was the Pixie manual.
2. The manual was stored in a shrine in their old estate, not the one they lived in, so they couldn't get to it without being followed and/or killed anyway.
3. Training in Pixie swordplay doesn't only require castration, it also requires you to brew and consume special medicines. How is he supposed to obtain the ingredients? Even if he had the ingredients on hand, it would still take time to prepare, and presumably time to take effect.
4. Pixie swordplay is notoriously complicated. Could he really learn the moves in time?

I think they knew about the real powerful Pixie but not practice it because they obeyed the words of their ancestor Lin Yuantu. They might or might not know about the castration part. If not, why did Lin Ping Zhi was looking for the manual after he joined Huashan? Is castration not the only requirement? What brew and special medicines do they need? I don't remember anything like that?

[tape]

I think it's a bit unclear whether Lin Zhennan and his father knew about the Pixie manual. The whole scene never really made that much sense anyway (almost in the way the enlightened Kong Jian tells Xie Xun about the Dragon Sabre...) since Lin Pingzhi had close to a zero percent chance of randomly stumbling into an old abandoned building and then finding whatever mysterious object was supposed to be there; so what is the point of telling him there's some object there if he actually didn't want his son to look at it?

The only explanation I can think of is that he did not trust Linghu Chong completely, so he passed on a somewhat misleading message in a daze. I mean if you were Lin Pingzhi, and your whole family just got massacred, and with his dying breath, your father begs someone to send you this incredibly cryptic and strange message, how can you possibly resist going to see what this mysterious object is?

While I don't think Lin Zhennan was implicitly asking his son to cut his ding dong to avenge his family, I think he did know it was the Pixie manual or something of that sort, and perhaps his son would be able to learn part of the martial arts to protect himself better even if not the whole thing. Lin Zhennan was a businessman before a martial artist afterall, so it's possible he just thought he didn't have the talent to learn it while his son might have some small chance.

[tape]

What brew and special medicines do they need? I don't remember anything like that?

Dongfong Bubai described this process of taking special refined herbs and pills after his castration. But he had the whole sect at his disposal and that might have been a luxury that sped up his healing process or something. I doubt Lin or Yue were able to secretly do all those things while appearing normal by daytime and practicing by night.

[Ace High]

Furthermore, castration will take some time for recovery. It could take at least 3-4 days just for the wound to dry and maybe weeks before he could even walk, much less practicing sword arts. YBQ covered this up by pretending to be sick.

[tape]

Furthermore, castration will take some time for recovery. It could take at least 3-4 days just for the wound to dry and maybe weeks before he could even walk, much less practicing sword arts. YBQ covered this up by pretending to be sick.

I wonder if Yue Buqun had some evil plan to kill his wife sometime soon, since he couldn't really hide that fact for too long could he? I suppose at his age it's possible that they don't see each other completely unclothed anymore, but he might have been better off making up some lame excuse like "Err honey, I messed up my qi flow and directed it all towards that area, so the only way to save myself was to cut it off. Don't tell anyone kk?!"

[Ian Liew]

I wonder if Yue Buqun had some evil plan to kill his wife sometime soon, since he couldn't really hide that fact for too long could he? I suppose at his age it's possible that they don't see each other completely unclothed anymore, but he might have been better off making up some lame excuse like "Err honey, I messed up my qi flow and directed it all towards that area, so the only way to save myself was to cut it off. Don't tell anyone kk?!"

ROFL! I got this mental picture of Kenneth Chun Kong's Yue Buqun suffering fire-deviation while practising Zixia Shengong and suddenly something below his belt explodes.

[tape]

ROFL! I got this mental picture of Kenneth Chun Kong's Yue Buqun suffering fire-deviation while practising Zixia Shengong and suddenly something below his belt explodes.

....and THUS the only logical, rational thing to do is to steal the Pixie Manual! It would add another level of depth to his character; the scheming, hypocrite who blew up his heehaws and so might as well turn to the dark side completely .