Results 1 to 4 of 4

Thread: The Throne and the imperial power

  1. #1
    Moderator Suet Seung's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Posts
    14,053

    Default The Throne and the imperial power

    I was reading up on Gao Wei, the emperor of Northern Qi and got curious about the process of reign and having imperial power. For instance, Gao Wei passed the throne to his son, but he became Taishang Huang (since he's still alive and haven't given the throne to his son because he's dying). Naturally, you'd think his son gets a shot at being Emperor and being able to make decisions on his own. But it is said after Gao Wei became Taishang Huang and his son became the new reigning emperor, Gao Wei still has imperial power. So what's the point of giving the throne to your son, if you're still going to do the job? I don't get it.

    Someone please explain this to me. Does it imply that the new emperor can make decisions, but his father the Taishang Huang can still veto his decision?
    I just love how you Captivate My Mind

    Self reminder - Update blog more often and continue editing/writing for TOV fanfic.

  2. #2
    Senior Member charbydis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    White Camel Mountain
    Posts
    6,288

    Default

    Qian Long abdicated to his son Jia Qing and still had lots of political power over his son whilst he was Taishang Huang. After the An Lu Shan Rebellion, Tang Yuan Zong also abdicated to his son because he was disappointed by the war and wanted nothing to do with politics anymore. I guess this comes from the Confucian views of the son having to submit to the father. Even the Emperor has to commit his filial duty by honouring his father. Officially, the new Emperor is the head of the nation but the Taishang Huang still retains the power with an even high social status as father of the head of the nation.

    Some emperors abdicate because they do not want to be burdened with the whole baggage of the Imperial Court or tired of being the centre of attention. In regards to the Northern Qi emperors who were a bunch of nutters, Gao Wei is not the only one to abdicate. They seem to be quite superstitious, believing that the Heavens only allow a limited time of reign for each Emperor. If the Emperor refuses to stand down when the given time is up, then calamity will befall the nation. So I guess to calm the public as well their own superstition worries, the Emperor abdicates the official title to not offend the heavens, and to continue to hold power behind the curtains does not discredit that. So in conclusion, it is all a farce.
    "Better to write for yourself and have no public, than to write for the public and have no self."
    Cyril Connolly

  3. #3
    Senior Member Athena's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Mount Olympus, sipping nectar and eating ambrosia
    Posts
    2,074

    Default

    To build upon Charbydis’s points, it also depends on how the ‘Taishang Huang’ abdicated. Sometimes the credibility of the old emperor was tarnished due to a debacle or series of debacles (Emperor Xuanzhong of Tang), or there was a delicate but clear shift in the balance of powers. The Chancellor or chancellors decided to side with the new emperor or they could also remain loyal to the old emperor, all these play a role in whether the ‘Taishang Huang’ kept his power or not. An emperor like Qianlong who was politically strong and who had anchored his position as the most powerful man in the empire for decades had no difficulty maintaining his reign even after abdication. Most of his trusted ministers were handpicked by him; leaving his son Emperor Jiaqing unable to exert his imperial powers effectively. This is similar to another Emperor Gaozong not of the Qing Dynasty but of the Southern Song Dynasty. Emperor Gaozong of Song abdicated in favour of his adopted son, Emperor Xiaozong. But Emperor Xiaozong was blocked at every corner by his father; especially on foreign affairs. Emperor Xiaozong was in favour of adopting a more aggressive stance against the Jurchens, but his father was very much against and vetoed him whenever he could. Another clear example of a short power struggle in the Song dynasty was between Emperor Huizong and his son Emperor Qinzong. After the first Jurchen invasion and before the first siege of Kaifeng, Huizong abdicated in favour of his son, Qinzong, and fled Kaifeng. After the first battle was over and a humiliating treaty was signed, Huizong returned. However, during this short time, just months before the final battle that would destroy the Northern Song Dynasty, he and Qinzong would indulge in political and palace intrigue. Every time, an imperial edict was issued Huizong wanted to make sure that he would read it too before it left the Imperial Palace and he would insist his personal imperial seal would be on the edict too. His son did not like this one bit, and there was some resentment towards Huizong. Huizong abandoned the capital and left Qinzong to deal with the Jurchens; now that the invasion was over ‘Taishang Huang’ wanted the power back. Naturally, Qinzong would not allow that to happen. Before any real clashes could happen, the Jurchens attacked again and the rest is history, literally. But this is another incident that highlights why the ‘Taishang Huang’ is not toothless. As the son of the famous general, Guo Chongtao, once told his father:’ When you reach the pinnacle of power, you cannot afford to lose it. Once you lose that power, you will be like a dragon out of the ocean and you will be at the mercy of mere ants.’

    And this is particular true with abdicated emperors who were forced to abdicate in favour of someone. Emperor Suzong of Tang was led to believe that his father, Xuanzong, was plotting against him. He subtly agreed to force his father to the main palace, but after that particular incident, Xuanzong basically lost most of his imperial powers. The same happened to Emperor Gaozu of Tang, after the Xuanwu Gate incident, Emperor Taizong was in charge. He still paid tribute and respect, but Gaozu was no longer in charge anymore. Emperors Zhengtong and Jingtai of the Ming Dynasty both suffered the fate of house arrest and being rendered powerless by each other.

    In the case of Northern and Southern Dynasties, most of the founders of those short-lived dynasties became the ‘Sons of Heaven’ through usurping the power of a child emperor. By abdicating early on, they hoped to strengthen the position of the sons and prevent the power shifting to the empress dowager and her family. By positioning himself as ‘Taishang Huang’, the old emperor could shun away from a lot of ceremonial responsibilities and still be in charge of the entire empire. And Charbydis rightly pointed out that most of the rulers in Northern Qi were deranged and paranoid; most of those Northern and Southern emperors were quite mad, so they did not want to be trouble with the daily routine of work. That way they could devote their time thinking about conspiracy theories and killing their own family members

    This is usually how this ‘Taishuang Huang’ business worked. The new emperor oversaw the daily routine of running the empire, but the ‘Taishang Huang’ would be overseeing and be in charge of the ‘bigger’ issues. However, according to how it SHOULD GO, the ‘Taishang Huang’ should be retired and be doing nothing at all. While writing this, it reminds me a bit of that story arc in the Office (the American version) when Jim Halpert is promoted to co-manager with Michael Scott, and Michael becomes a bit paranoid and mad(der).

    Just my two pennies' worth.
    Last edited by Athena; 11-04-13 at 01:28 AM.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

  4. #4
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    18,425

    Default

    So it seems like the point is to get rid of the day-to-day responsibilities while still being in charge of the big picture.

    Wise old fellows.
    Last edited by PJ; 11-01-13 at 02:49 PM.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

Similar Threads

  1. SMCS or YGS vs. the Four Imperial Guardsmen
    By Ken Cheng in forum Wuxia Fiction
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 03-09-10, 10:40 AM
  2. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 01-26-10, 06:46 AM
  3. Replies: 39
    Last Post: 01-21-10, 12:56 PM
  4. Cook off! Wong Yung vs. the Imperial Chef!
    By Ken Cheng in forum Wuxia Fiction
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 04-03-07, 02:57 PM
  5. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 06-28-06, 12:39 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •