How powerful was Wang JianTong the teacher of Xiao Feng?

[ecthelias]

Wang Jian Tong passed on the 28 Dragon Subduing Palms and the Dog Beating Stick arts to Xiao Feng.

At his peak, how powerful was he compared to his contemporaries?

Had he mastered these skills when he attacked Xiao Yuan Shan?

How did he compare to ROCH greats, and particularly other beggar clan leaders H7G and Yelu Qi?

[devilz91]

Hard to say. Probably stronger than all the other clan leaders we've seen except Xiao Feng and Hong Qigong.

[Western Eccentric]

We are almost agree that XF ~ GJ ~ Wuji then Wang Jiantong whose mastered Dragon Palm and DBS should be quite powerful since Shi Huolong in HSDS which only learn 12 out of 18 Dragon Palm could "tie" with Cheng Kun so he is at least on par with Cheng Kun/Shi Huolong and if We say about DGSD he is perhaps around Xu Xinghe/MRF level..

[CC]

We are almost agree that XF ~ GJ ~ Wuji then Wang Jiantong whose mastered Dragon Palm and DBS should be quite powerful since Shi Huolong in HSDS which only learn 12 out of 18 Dragon Palm could "tie" with Cheng Kun so he is at least on par with Cheng Kun/Shi Huolong and if We say about DGSD he is perhaps around Xu Xinghe/MRF level..

Given how he got crapped by a 30 year old XYS who had not learnt Shaolin skills yet, I think he might not even be Yelu Qi level. Above Shi Huolong but below Yelu Qi is my take.

[Patudo]

"当年在华山绝顶与王重阳、黄药师等人论剑之时，这套掌法尚末完全练成，但王重阳等言下对这掌法已 极为称道 。后来他常常叹息，只要早几年致力于此，那么“武功天下 第一”的名号，或许不属于全真教主王重阳而属于他了。"

"Previously, during the last Huashan Tournament with Wang Chongyang, Huang Yaoshi, and the rest, he hadn't fully mastered this set of palms, yet Wang Chongyang and the others already praised this set of palms most highly. Later he (Hong Qigong) would often lament that if only he had finished learning this set of palms a few years earlier, the title of "Number One Pugilist in the World" might not have fallen to Quanzhen's leader, Wang Chongyang, but instead fallen to him."

I recalled this excerpt but have a very hard time imagining Yelu Qi or Cheng Kun (if transported back in time) being up there with the best! Presumably Qigong must have had significantly better inner power?

For what it's worth, Cheng Kun also gives me the impression that he'd defeat Yelu Qi - Yelu stumbling against Huodu is a big black mark against him IMO.

[Western Eccentric]

Given how he got crapped by a 30 year old XYS who had not learnt Shaolin skills yet, I think he might not even be Yelu Qi level. Above Shi Huolong but below Yelu Qi is my take.

So YLQ > Shi Huolong/CK/YTZ/XX amazing as strong as YLQ I don't think he is could beat LMC or Zhu Zhiliu even if truly masterd 18 Dragon Palm/Dog Beating Stick..

[Ken Cheng]

I never thought of Yeh Lut Chai as being *that* good. At the end of ROCH, he was still considerably below the level of Gwok Jing at the end of LOCH. What happened after that is anybody's guess.

[Western Eccentric]

Yeahhh almost all members at this forum "agreed" that XF ~ Wuji and We know during Trilogy The Gaibang Elders was a very capable fighter at their level so Wang Jiantong should be "better" than average Elders..

[CC]

"当年在华山绝顶与王重阳、黄药师等人论剑之时，这套掌法尚末完全练成，但王重阳等言下对这掌法已 极为称道 。后来他常常叹息，只要早几年致力于此，那么“武功天下 第一”的名号，或许不属于全真教主王重阳而属于他了。"

"Previously, during the last Huashan Tournament with Wang Chongyang, Huang Yaoshi, and the rest, he hadn't fully mastered this set of palms, yet Wang Chongyang and the others already praised this set of palms most highly. Later he (Hong Qigong) would often lament that if only he had finished learning this set of palms a few years earlier, the title of "Number One Pugilist in the World" might not have fallen to Quanzhen's leader, Wang Chongyang, but instead fallen to him."

I recalled this excerpt but have a very hard time imagining Yelu Qi or Cheng Kun (if transported back in time) being up there with the best! Presumably Qigong must have had significantly better inner power?

For what it's worth, Cheng Kun also gives me the impression that he'd defeat Yelu Qi - Yelu stumbling against Huodu is a big black mark against him IMO.

I think JY never had the intention to scale power according to the number of palms learnt IMHO.

Otherwise after young LOCH GJ had learnt the 13th palm he would have been better than Cheng Kun?

Put another way, learning all 18 palms does not equal learning all 18 palms. Otherwise XF and Yelu Qi end up equal using this logic.

[Stance]

I think JY never had the intention to scale power according to the number of palms learnt IMHO.

Otherwise after young LOCH GJ had learnt the 13th palm he would have been better than Cheng Kun?

Put another way, learning all 18 palms does not equal learning all 18 palms. Otherwise XF and Yelu Qi end up equal using this logic.

The same logic as knowing how to play basket ball does not equal michael jordan.

[Western Eccentric]

Agree..
But Lady Yang also say even with only 12 out of 18 palm from 18 Dragon Palm Shi Huolong was very "powerful" which strong enough to injured Cheng Kun though he die later while YLQ We never know how strong him after learn Dragon Palm/Dog Beating Stick

[hyoyatika]

Given how he got crapped by a 30 year old XYS who had not learnt Shaolin skills yet, I think he might not even be Yelu Qi level. Above Shi Huolong but below Yelu Qi is my take.

So in the amazing world of DGSD, how did the Beggar Sect became the number 1 sect if their leader was so terrible?

If Wang Jian Tong was so bad, his other elders are likely to be worse. Which begets the question, how did the Beggar Sect rose to become the number 1 sect? It can't be sheer numbers alone.

[CC]

So in the amazing world of DGSD, how did the Beggar Sect became the number 1 sect if their leader was so terrible?

If Wang Jian Tong was so bad, his other elders are likely to be worse. Which begets the question, how did the Beggar Sect rose to become the number 1 sect? It can't be sheer numbers alone.

This is the plot point used in many JY novels which me and PJ call the 'Theory of Pre-Novel Ingloriousness'.

Not just Wang JT. The Shaolin Abott and the 'cream' of wulin all got punked 30 to 1 by XYS easy.

The Yellow Eyebrow monk who was supposed to highly reputable in wulin? 1 Hit KO by a pubescent MRB.

[hyoyatika]

This is the plot point used in many JY novels which me and PJ call the 'Theory of Pre-Novel Ingloriousness'.

Not just Wang JT. The Shaolin Abott and the 'cream' of wulin all got punked 30 to 1 by XYS easy.

The Yellow Eyebrow monk who was supposed to highly reputable in wulin? 1 Hit KO by a pubescent MRB.

XYS case can be explained by Khitan rage.
MRB was a child prodigy and the Murong family was amongst the elite.

The Beggar sect was number 1 even during the novel and faced no potential attacks from other sects. To me, this is a show of stregnth.

[CC]

XYS case can be explained by Khitan rage.
MRB was a child prodigy and the Murong family was amongst the elite.

The Beggar sect was number 1 even during the novel and faced no potential attacks from other sects. To me, this is a show of stregnth.

In 3rd edition, this 'Child Prodigy' was totally scared when he first met XYS because he was so inferior.

The scaling is just mad. MRB was >>>>> all the wulin and XYS >>>>> MRB (before the novel began)

[Ken Cheng]

In 3rd edition, this 'Child Prodigy' was totally scared when he first met XYS because he was so inferior.

The scaling is just mad. MRB was >>>>> all the wulin and XYS >>>>> MRB (before the novel began)

...and Siu Yeun San was just a Khitan who dabbled in Han Chinese martial arts with an unheralded teacher.

Do we have any information about Siu Yeun San's martial arts teacher? Additionally, was Siu Yeun San anybody important in the Liao Empire, or was he just some unknown herder?

[Ren Wo Xing]

In 3rd edition, this 'Child Prodigy' was totally scared when he first met XYS because he was so inferior.

The scaling is just mad. MRB was >>>>> all the wulin and XYS >>>>> MRB (before the novel began)

I explain it by the softcap theory. XYS was already at the softcap at that age, MRB wasn't there yet, and the others were even farther behind. It makes sense, given that XF at a roughly similar age had hit a similar level as well.

[Western Eccentric]

I explain it by the softcap theory. XYS was already at the softcap at that age, MRB wasn't there yet, and the others were even farther behind. It makes sense, given that XF at a roughly similar age had hit a similar level as well.

Well in the other word XYS "slowing down" after he reach that level that's why MRB could catch him during 30 years timeskip..

[CC]

I explain it by the softcap theory. XYS was already at the softcap at that age, MRB wasn't there yet, and the others were even farther behind. It makes sense, given that XF at a roughly similar age had hit a similar level as well.

Yeah but why the Softcap differs by date. You really think XYS at 30 = novel XF? That would mean his 30 years of training at Shaolin (and taking on those injuries) did nada.

And if XF was at or near softcap, it would be very surprising that he noticed his power had increased by itself when he was running around with a girl and not actively training.

I keep saying this, screw the wuxia math. JY does not account for it in his plots.

[St3v3]

Yeah, I don't think JY is really creating a table and do maths to compare all the gong fu and the pugilists chart when he wrote the novel.