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Thread: 9 Yum can't cure Iron Palm injuries, but 9 Yeung can cure YM Divine Palms injuries?

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default 9 Yum can't cure Iron Palm injuries, but 9 Yeung can cure YM Divine Palms injuries?

    When Wong Yung was injured by Kau Cheen Yan's Iron Palm, Gwok Jing was unable to heal her injury with the 9 Yum Jen Ging. Wong Yung explained that 9 Yum could do nothing about Iron Palm injuries because 9 Yum energy is yin while Iron Palm energy is yang. Therefore, they needed to visit South Emperor 1 Deng so that his yang-based 1 Yeung Finger Technique could heal Wong Yung.

    During HSDS, however, when Cheung Mo Gei was injured by the very yin Yeun Ming Divine Palms, only the extremely yang 9 Yeung Jen Ging energy was able to fully heal him. Doesn't that contradict what was described in LOCH?

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    Huang Rong's injury didn't have anything to do with the differences between Yin and Yang energy -- she was just hit really hard by someone far more powerful than her. Her acupoints and meridians could only be cleared by someone as powerful as Yideng using 1 Yang Finger. I actually don't think Guo Jing even thought to try to cure her himself, since they were on the run and he probably knew it was out of reach of his abilities.

    Zhang Wuji's injury though was based on poisonous yin energy invading his organs and thus needed 9 Yang to counteract it. It's actually pretty surprising that there were 5 total volumes of 9 Yang (if I remember right) and he was pretty much healed after practicing the first one, and even after mastering all five he still hasn't unleashed the power without the bag, so that means a small fraction of 9 Yang (though I assume more complete) is able to heal him.

    Yet a martial arts genius like Zhang Sanfeng who already knows at least 1/3 of 9 Yang and has Great level inner strength, isn't able to devise a method that could replicate what a small fraction of what the complete 9 Yang can do. Kind of makes you think about how great the guy who wrote 9 Yang is after just perusing 9 Yin, or that ZSF is a bit overrated in the field of Taoism, medicine, and martial arts.

    It also puts into perspective how powerful the *original* Sunflower Manual of XAJH is. 1/3 of 9 Yang is very powerful already, yet the energy cultivated by it cannot even compare in sophistication to 1/5th of a complete 9 Yang. The original manual could conceivably produce somebody 5-10x stronger than DFBB.
    Last edited by tape; 12-29-13 at 02:59 AM.

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    Senior Member Ian Liew's Avatar
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    I think the difference was that the 9 Yang which Wuji learnt was the first volume, and had the foundations all done correctly, while if I remember correctly, when Guo Xiang, Wusi and Zhang Sanfeng learnt their respective thirds of the 9 Yang, it wasn't really in order, and so they could only make do with what portions they managed to learn. I recall there was a reason why they only got their respective thirds - Wusi was hiding, so towards the end when Guo Yuan was fading he couldn't hear the words anymore, or something like that, while Guo Xiang and Zhang Sanfeng both understood different parts for a reason I can't remember. The way they learnt their portions may have been good enough to use for neigong cultivation, but it probably wasn't complete in terms of progression. Otherwise if Zhang Sanfeng had all the foundation, Emei and Shaolin would not have any at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Liew View Post
    I think the difference was that the 9 Yang which Wuji learnt was the first volume, and had the foundations all done correctly, while if I remember correctly, when Guo Xiang, Wusi and Zhang Sanfeng learnt their respective thirds of the 9 Yang, it wasn't really in order, and so they could only make do with what portions they managed to learn. I recall there was a reason why they only got their respective thirds - Wusi was hiding, so towards the end when Guo Yuan was fading he couldn't hear the words anymore, or something like that, while Guo Xiang and Zhang Sanfeng both understood different parts for a reason I can't remember. The way they learnt their portions may have been good enough to use for neigong cultivation, but it probably wasn't complete in terms of progression. Otherwise if Zhang Sanfeng had all the foundation, Emei and Shaolin would not have any at all.
    Yup I agree that is the reason -- it is still very impressive to me though that the 9 Yang creator thought up all those theories on the fly, which Zhang Sanfeng couldn't replicate in a century of pondering martial arts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    ... or that ZSF is a bit overrated in the field of Taoism, medicine, and martial arts.
    That isn't exactly fair. It's like saying that Michaelangelo was an overrated artist because he didn't duplicate or improve upon Da Vinci's work, or that Elvis Presley was an overrated singer because he didn't sing exactly like Roy Orbison. Often, it's easier to invent your own stuff from scratch than it is to figure out what someone else was trying to do and expand on it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    That isn't exactly fair. It's like saying that Michaelangelo was an overrated artist because he didn't duplicate or improve upon Da Vinci's work, or that Elvis Presley was an overrated singer because he didn't sing exactly like Roy Orbison. Often, it's easier to invent your own stuff from scratch than it is to figure out what someone else was trying to do and expand on it.
    Sure, if it's equal but different. But his results in the field of inner energy were decidely inferior.

    And without the historical context, Taiqi Fist and Sword weren't particularly impressive within the novels.

    Not to knock ZSF since I do like him, but his position as the greatest martial artist/genius or whatever seems very suspect when there's another guy who just created a superior art off the top of his head after a drinking competition!

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    Sure, if it's equal but different. But his results in the field of inner energy were decidely inferior.
    I don't know about that; I would reckon that Cheung 3 Fung's inner power was not inferior to the 9 Yeung-powered Cheung Mo Gei's, though I concede that Cheung 3 Fung needed much longer to reach that point (but Cheung Mo Gei was the beneficiary of several lucky main character breaks that his grandteacher didn't have).

    And without the historical context, Taiqi Fist and Sword weren't particularly impressive within the novels.
    I was pretty impressed by the results that Cheung Mo Gei got out of these skills after training briefly in them at Mt. Mo Dong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    I don't know about that; I would reckon that Cheung 3 Fung's inner power was not inferior than the 9 Yeung-powered Cheung Mo Gei's, though I concede that Cheung 3 Fung needed much longer to reach that point (but Cheung Mo Gei was the beneficiary of several lucky main character breaks that his grandteacher didn't have).



    I was pretty impressed by the results that Cheung Mo Gei got out of these skills after training briefly in them at Mt. Mo Dong.
    While I think his overall inner power techniques is also inferior, the reason I say it is inferior is because he is unable to heal Xuanming palms while Wuji is able to do so with just 1 book of the completel 9 Yang. It is more sophisticated in that sense at the least.

    Wuji was not very impressive with Taiqi. He couldn't beat Ah San with Taiqi fist even with like 10x his inner strength and had to resort to Qiankun. He did heat Ah Da in swordsmanship, but again the scene did not display the power of Taiqi Sword. He used it, but the move that ultimately won him the fight was using his super inner strength to grab the sword with his fingers, and then chop off the guy's arm. I don't really count that as a victory for Taiqi.

    Yes, he was inexperienced, but those arts did not help him win the fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    While I think his overall inner power techniques is also inferior, the reason I say it is inferior is because he is unable to heal Xuanming palms while Wuji is able to do so with just 1 book of the completel 9 Yang.
    Not inferior, just not specifically designed to be purely yang in nature. As a master Taoist, Cheung 3 Fung's martial arts would tend to attempt to balance yin and yang. Going all-out yin or yang wouldn't be consistent with orthodox Taoist ideas of balance.

    With 9 Yeung Jen Ging, however, there was no aim to be balanced; it was specifically designed to be as yang-dominant as possible.

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    I do think that he should have aimed for balance, but Wudang arts seemed to indicate that it was very Yang dominant. He had an art called something like Pure Yang Boundless Art, and the basis of their martial arts was from the portion of 9 Yang that he knew. Even the philosophy of overcoming opponents with superior inner strength and outlasting them seems very Yang in nature.

    And from the third edition changes thread:

    When reading the Book of Nine Yin, the monk, with his superior intellect and knowledge, noticed that the Nine Yin martial arts were based on extreme Yin principles instead of a harmony between Yin and Yang. Realising that there must be "another way", he created the Art of Nine Yang and wrote the Book of Nine Yang inside the Sutra.

    It seems that 9 Yang is actually based on harmony, but still resulted in a powerful Yang based energy somehow....
    Last edited by tape; 12-29-13 at 03:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    I do think that he should have aimed for balance, but Wudang arts seemed to indicate that it was very Yang dominant. He had an art called something like Pure Yang Boundless Art, and the basis of their martial arts was from the portion of 9 Yang that he knew. Even the philosophy of overcoming opponents with superior inner strength and outlasting them seems very Yang in nature.
    Some of that might be the subtle influence of Cheung Gwun Bo's Shaolin experience and his early exposure to the fundamental principles of 9 Yeung Jen Ging (from his teacher Gok Yeun). Maybe even that little bit that Yeung Gor taught him at Mt. Hua influenced this.

    It gets interesting when you compare Cheung 3 Fung's martial arts philosophy and development with that of Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung. Wong Chung Yeung's stuff likely also aimed for balance, but seemed to have a slight yin leaning, perhaps due to the influence of the 9 Yum Jen Ging.

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    guo jing's level of jiu ying is not high ?

    has guo jing fully mastered jiu ying ???

    no one in the novel does right except the creator ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsman83 View Post
    guo jing's level of jiu ying is not high ?

    has guo jing fully mastered jiu ying ???

    no one in the novel does right except the creator ?
    Gwok Jing had mastered the 9 Yum Jen Ging by the time of ROCH, but during the time that Wong Yung was injured in LOCH, Gwok Jing was still a beginner with the 9 Yum Jen Ging.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Gwok Jing had mastered the 9 Yum Jen Ging by the time of ROCH, but during the time that Wong Yung was injured in LOCH, Gwok Jing was still a beginner with the 9 Yum Jen Ging.
    does yang guo fully mastered jiu ying zhen jing too ?
    Last edited by Swordsman83; 12-30-13 at 03:13 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsman83 View Post
    does yang guo fully mastered ji ying zhen jin too ?
    That's a good question. He wouldn't have had full access to the manual until some time *after* ROCH ended, and if he did, we can only assume that Gwok Jing and Wong Yung somehow provided him access to a copy post-ROCH. Given that Lady Yeung from HSDS seemed to be very familiar with the 9 Yum Jen Ging, however, the Yeung descendants somehow gained access to it.

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    So an add-on question: Gwok Jing couldn't use the 9 Yum Jen Ging to heal Wong Yung's Iron Palm injury because at the time, he lacked sufficient mastery of the 9 Yum Jen Ging. Chow Bak Tung, however, who had mastered more of the 9 Yum Jen Ging than Gwok Jing had at that point, also couldn't do it. Did that indicate incomplete mastery of the 9 Yum Jen Ging on Chow Bak Tung's part?

    Can someone who has truly and completely mastered the 9 Yum Jen Ging (e.g. Wong Seung or Gwok Jing/Chow Bak Tung by the end of ROCH) have healed that same injury?

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    They should be able to. Her injury at heart is the same as Hong Qigong's: blocked meridians/arteries from such a heavy blow. The sanskrit portion of 9 Yin teaches you how to unclog those meridians by yourself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    They should be able to. Her injury at heart is the same as Hong Qigong's: blocked meridians/arteries from such a heavy blow. The sanskrit portion of 9 Yin teaches you how to unclog those meridians by yourself.
    The X-Factor being poison. Au Yeung Fung's attacks carry poison, while Kau Cheen Yan's Iron Palms do not.

    That raises another question: Wong Yung, whose mastery of 9 Yum Jen Ging was not greater than Gwok Jing's, was able to heal him when he was injured by Ha Mo Gung, but he couldn't heal her when she was injured by Iron Palm. I would expect Ha Mo Gung injuries to be more difficult to deal with than Iron Palm injuries.

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    His injury wasn't supposed to be [instantly] lethal like hers was. I think that's the part where Ouyang Feng just wanted to injure him and cause him to suffer for months before dying. Plus his base inner strength (as well as physical body) is much stronger than Huang Rong's so he probably took less overall damage as well.

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