Did Lee Mok Sau's poisonous weaponry/skills originate with Au Yeung Fung?

[Ken Cheng]

Lee Mok Sau was an acolyte of the Ancient Tomb Sect, so her martial arts foundation (particularly her hing gung skills) originated from Lam Chiu Ying. In wulin, however, Lee Mok Sau was feared for her venomous weaponry and skills.

Lam Chiu Ying, however, did not feature poison as part of her martial arts legacy. Thus, did the venomous weaponry and skills that Lee Mok Sau became feared and renowned for in wulin originate from the Five Poisons Manual that she stole from West Poison Au Yeung Fung? Curiously, this could give her something in common with Yeung Gor: both used martial arts rooted in the legacies of Lam Chiu Ying and Au Yeung Fung.

Additionally, was the Five Poisons Manual ever mentioned in LOCH? It seemed like such a big deal in ROCH that if truly originated from Au Yeung Fung, it's surprising that it never came up during LOCH.

[pannonian]

Lee Mok Sau was an acolyte of the Ancient Tomb Sect, so her martial arts foundation (particularly her hing gung skills) originated from Lam Chiu Ying. In wulin, however, Lee Mok Sau was feared for her venomous weaponry and skills.

Lam Chiu Ying, however, did not feature poison as part of her martial arts legacy. Thus, did the the venomous weaponry and skills that Lee Mok Sau became feared and renowned for in wulin originate from the Five Poisons Manual that she stole from West Poison Au Yeung Fung? Curiously, this could give her something in common with Yeung Gor: both used martial arts rooted in the legacies of Lam Chiu Ying and Au Yeung Fung.

Additionally, was the Five Poisons Manual ever mentioned in LOCH? It seemed like such a big deal in ROCH that if truly originated from Au Yeung Fung, it's surprising that it never came up during LOCH.

Soul-freezing needles and Jade bee needles were part of the Ancient Tomb repertoire. Ouyang Feng himself was repelled by a handlful of jade bee needles in the face.

[Ken Cheng]

Soul-freezing needles and Jade bee needles were part of the Ancient Tomb repertoire. Ouyang Feng himself was repelled by a handlful of jade bee needles in the face.

Jade Bee Needles, I can see, because that was Little Dragon Girl's skill and the bee "venom" was not fatal and didn't cause permanent damage, but Lam Chiu Ying created Icy Soul Needle as well? That seems crueler than she was depicted as being.

Kind of surprised that Au Yeung Fung got caught offguard by the Jade Bee Needles, though. Greats usually dodge attacks like that easily.

[pannonian]

Jade Bee Needles, I can see, because that was Little Dragon Girl's skill and the bee "venom" was not fatal and didn't cause permanent damage, but Lam Chiu Ying created Icy Soul Needle as well? That seems crueler than she was depicted as being.

Kind of surprised that Au Yeung Fung got caught offguard by the Jade Bee Needles, though. Greats usually dodge attacks like that easily.

After Guo Fu wounds both Yang Guo and Xiao Longnu with Li Mochou's soul freezing needles, XLN gives YG the antidote which she tells him to take. This is in every adaptation. Also, jade bee needles were said to be harder to detect, being considerably finer than soul freezing needles which would presumably be standard needle sized.

[Ken Cheng]

After Guo Fu wounds both Yang Guo and Xiao Longnu with Li Mochou's soul freezing needles, XLN gives YG the antidote which she tells him to take. This is in every adaptation.

Creating an antidote for the poison doesn't make the creation of such a weapon any less cruel, however. I'm not much of a fan of Lam Chiu Ying, but she never struck me as the kind who had the requisite viciousness to create such a weapon. It doesn't fit her character (but totally fits Lee Mok Sau's or Au Yeung Fung's).

[pannonian]

Creating an antidote for the poison doesn't make the creation of such a weapon any less cruel, however. I'm not much of a fan of Lam Chiu Ying, but she never struck me as the kind who had the requisite viciousness to create such a weapon. It doesn't fit her character (but totally fits Lee Mok Sau's or Au Yeung Fung's).

What I was getting at is that all adaptations show XLN having the antidote to the soul freezing needles, indicating that they were part of the Ancient Tomb's weaponry. As for the poisonous showing LCY's viciousness, even so called righteous people used poison. Qiu Chuji found himself losing the fight against the Freaks because Ke Zhen E had hit him with a poisoned awl. The Beggars Clan produced a particularly nasty poison (can't remember which novel mentioned this, possibly DGSD).

[Ian Liew]

Zhang Zhaozhong in Book and Sword had a particularly nasty needle skill called "Furong" Needles. Granted, he was a villain, but his martial arts were all from Wudang, and even his martial brothers knew the skill as having originated from Wudang.

[Ken Cheng]

WAs for the poisonous showing LCY's viciousness, even so called righteous people used poison. Qiu Chuji found himself losing the fight against the Freaks because Ke Zhen E had hit him with a poisoned awl.

Yeah...and I've had a problem with this because the righteous and orthodox always complain when the villains use poisonous weaponry, but how can they say that without being hypocrites if they use such weaponry themselves?

Notably, main characters tend to not use such weaponry, but supporting "good guys" (allies and friends of the main characters) do more often than is comfortable.

To me, at least, Ice Soul Needles seem very out of character for Lam Chiu Ying. I dislike her because she could be vindictive, but I don't see her as one who would stoop to using poisoned needles (I discount Jade Bee Needles because though technically venomous, Jade Bee Needles do not kill or maim...just incapacitate for a time).

The Beggars Clan produced a particularly nasty poison (can't remember which novel mentioned this, possibly DGSD).

The elder who used the cloth sack against Pau But Tung, correct? I believe he was Elder Chan?

[426mak]

What I was getting at is that all adaptations show XLN having the antidote to the soul freezing needles, indicating that they were part of the Ancient Tomb's weaponry.

Interesting theory, but having an antidote does not prove they invented the poison. Remember Eastern Heretic was able to counteract most of Western Poison's poison and there was no direct link between them.

When Old Urchin was poisoned by the spiders Little Dragon Girl offered him the bee honey as a cure. This suggest it is one of those cure all antidotes.

[pannonian]

Interesting theory, but having an antidote does not prove they invented the poison. Remember Eastern Heretic was able to counteract most of Western Poison's poison and there was no direct link between them.

When Old Urchin was poisoned by the spiders Little Dragon Girl offered him the bee honey as a cure. This suggest it is one of those cure all antidotes.

Zhou Botong had been hit by 20 or so jade bee needles when Xiao Longnu shot them at Jinlun Fawang and Fawang used Zhou Botong as a shield. Xiao Longnu was offering the honey to him as the antidote to her jade bee poison. Ironically, it was the jade bee poison that was a cure all antidote, relieving the spider poison.